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Old 11-30-2018, 11:57 PM   #21
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

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Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac View Post
That’s interesting. I cut an oil filled coil open and the “ bottom “ of the coil has a 2” spacer so the windings are off the bottom by that much, so when upside down, they stay immersed in the oil. Don’t remember the brand off hand, but it’s an older unit. Don’t know if all oil filled coils are that way either. It sure seems that a coil built that way shouldn’t overheat??
Yep, all my Studebaker 6 volt coils are oil filled and mounted upside down, and none has ever failed for me.
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Old 12-01-2018, 01:06 AM   #22
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I'm curious... why would you go through all the trouble of going 12v. So much hassle to have problems. if it ain't broken why fix it???

Some think that it is difficult to convert the model A to 12 volts . The biggest thing about a 12 volt conversion is installing the 12 volt battery . as long as you remain positive ground , not a single wire will need to be changed or swapped .The original coil can be used but will need a resistor that only costs a few dollars . I prefer to use the 3 OHM coil on 12 volts for a clean setup that doesn't need a resistor . The original generator and starter has worked well for me and lots of others for many years . A good original type cut out can work but I prefer the Fun Projects can style voltage regulator for the original look and it couldn't be easier . Of course the common sense things like 12 volt bulbs and a resistor for the horn and electric windshield wiper motor when present. The original car didn't need really high amps . I don't use a lot of accessories that requirw more amps . I do run an extra tail lamp for safety . I can enjoy driving and listening to the model A sound . If I want to listen to music or news on a radio or use other modern accessories ,
I will go in the modern car . A 12 volt conversion without a bunch of accessories doesn't need as many amps as some 6 volt cars . I set my generator for a maximum charge rate of 10 amps . It only takes about 3 amps to run the engine . The can style voltage regulator will allow the system in my model A to cycle from 3 to 10 amps on demand , similar to a later model car . There is less chance of electrical problems when operating on lower amps . an original generator could probably last a lifetime . I use an accessory air scoop on the side of my generator for probably better cooling of the commutator than the later generators that has a fan behind the pulley .The generator is going to run cooler on 12 volts 10 amps than it would on 6 volts with nearly 20 amps with the headlamps on , anyway , even if it doesn't use the air scoop .The cooler band air scoop usually costs less that 20 doillars and can be easily be removed and swapped back to original in a matter of minutes and really isn't necessary . This system has worked without any problems ever for me .

Twelve volts is an upgrade that has been used on modern cars for over 60 years for most . Six volt batteries can still be found but not common like they once was . Twelve volts is a big improvement and batteries can be found anywhere . twelve volt batteries will crank over much quicker and charge quicker, the lights are bright and 12 volt components are common and readily available . A weak six volt system is a bare get by and not like they use to be.I'm real glad that I can make this simple upgrade and don't have to run 6 volts . This upgrade looks original . Less amps will allow the electrical system to run cooler with less strain and longer life . A person can do what they want . I won't tell a person what they need or must do . It just seems that a 12 volt upgrade is a common sense upgrade , The automakers must have thought so as well .
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Old 12-01-2018, 01:27 AM   #23
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

A lot of info for a simple solution. I'm not sure 12v over 6v is that important over all. But maybe so.
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Old 12-01-2018, 01:53 AM   #24
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

I do try to explain things in a simple way that some will understand .You wanted to know why and I told you .Changing over to 12 volts was not a conversion that I had to make . Twelve volts was an upgrade that I wanted to make . I grew up with six volt cars . I would always prefer a more modern 12 volt setup than the bare get by of a weak six volt system . Nobody has asked you to convert anything . More and more people are converting to 12 volt as the six volt batteries get worse and sometimes difficult to locate . I can usually buy a 12 volt battery for less than a six volt .I don't convert a six volt car that is in good shape . When I build a model A I would prefer to start out with a twelve volt system . When the six volt battery gets old and weak I convert to a more powerfull dependable 12 volt set up .
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Old 12-01-2018, 02:04 AM   #25
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

i agree, once the 6v battery no longer is available. it worked some how up to 1954 though... but it is 2018


6 volt works very well in most modern environments.
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Old 12-01-2018, 09:06 AM   #26
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And if you want to switch to 12volts, here is a cheap way to go... I just bought a one wire alternator brand new, on eBay, for $29.00, with free shipping. It is the small Chevy Cruse style, but has a V belt pulley. This pulley is for a narrow V belt, but it has enough meat so that 5 minutes on the lathe can open it up wide enough for a model A fan belt. These are rated at 55 amps I believe so plenty of amps for the A, and being so small, they are super easy to mount. I've previously put one on my 29 A pickup, my Ford 8N tractor, my 54 Studebaker Starliner, and my 63 Studebaker Avanti, with no issues whatever. I just bought this one for the 26 T hot rod I am building. These alternators just work.

Now the normal eBay price on these is about $50.00 - $70.00, so I did find a deal at $29.00 (was listed at $31, with make an offer, so I offered $29 and they accepted it), but even at $50, these are a great way to go to 12volts for cheap. Made by Denso, used on several different vehicles, but most are 4 wire, and flat belt, so make sure you get the V belt one wire version. They also come with the outlet terminal clocked in one of 4 different positions, so watch for that.

Here is a current listing. Keep checking though, they come up cheaper, all the time.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ALTERNA...edirect=mobile



And about those coils burning up, just go 12volt, get a 12volt coil with an internal resister, and be done with that problem forever. Oh, and you might also want to plug in a Honda distributor with electronic ignition, both mechanical and vacuum advance, and forget all those points/condenser issues as well, plus get better mileage and performance. (Just what I do...) Gee, with no need for that spark lever any longer, you can use it for your turn signals!
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Old 12-01-2018, 09:25 AM   #27
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

Thanks all for your lessons about ignition coils. I did not realize that the hi-voltage output of a coil was a function of the resistance on its output side, especially the cumulative resistance of gaps.


I have since bought a spare oil filled coil. My thinking is that liquid will not permanently gap as does the epoxy fill. So an excessive internal hi-voltage leak through the oil will be self healing.
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:32 AM   #28
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

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And if you want to switch to 12volts, here is a cheap way to go... I just bought a one wire alternator brand new, on eBay, for $29.00, with free shipping. It is the small Chevy Cruse style, but has a V belt pulley. This pulley is for a narrow V belt, but it has enough meat so that 5 minutes on the lathe can open it up wide enough for a model A fan belt. These are rated at 55 amps I believe so plenty of amps for the A, and being so small, they are super easy to mount. I've previously put one on my 29 A pickup, my Ford 8N tractor, my 54 Studebaker Starliner, and my 63 Studebaker Avanti, with no issues whatever. I just bought this one for the 26 T hot rod I am building. These alternators just work.

Now the normal eBay price on these is about $50.00 - $70.00, so I did find a deal at $29.00 (was listed at $31, with make an offer, so I offered $29 and they accepted it), but even at $50, these are a great way to go to 12volts for cheap. Made by Denso, used on several different vehicles, but most are 4 wire, and flat belt, so make sure you get the V belt one wire version. They also come with the outlet terminal clocked in one of 4 different positions, so watch for that.

Here is a current listing. Keep checking though, they come up cheaper, all the time.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ALTERNA...edirect=mobile



And about those coils burning up, just go 12volt, get a 12volt coil with an internal resister, and be done with that problem forever. Oh, and you might also want to plug in a Honda distributor with electronic ignition, both mechanical and vacuum advance, and forget all those points/condenser issues as well, plus get better mileage and performance. (Just what I do...) Gee, with no need for that spark lever any longer, you can use it for your turn signals!
The ad says 35 amps output. Do they have a larger one ? Also, the vendors sell the A size pulleys. I wonder if they would fit the Denso shaft ?
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

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So an excessive internal hi-voltage leak through the oil will be self healing.
Not quite true, the varnish insulation on the wire will still have a permanent hole in it.
The oil is not there for insulation, it's main purpose is for cooling.
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Old 12-02-2018, 11:20 AM   #30
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

Corey, your link for the alternator doesn't seem to work. Could you post the ebay item number please.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:15 PM   #31
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

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Corey, your link for the alternator doesn't seem to work. Could you post the ebay item number please.
It worked for me. Are you clicking on the link or manually typing in the abbreviated text that the forum puts in the post?
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

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The ad says 35 amps output. Do they have a larger one ? Also, the vendors sell the A size pulleys. I wonder if they would fit the Denso shaft ?
eBay item number 253761299341


I have no idea about other pulleys fitting or not, I just opened the shipped pulley up on my lathe.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

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The ad says 35 amps output. Do they have a larger one ? Also, the vendors sell the A size pulleys. I wonder if they would fit the Denso shaft ?

These are variously listed at 35 amps, 55amps and numbers in between. Since I know they handle the load of a Chevy Cruze, a Suzuki Samurai, and several other current cars with much higher loads than any model A would ever have, the output current should not be an issue, whatever the real numbers are. If you look long enough, you MAY find the real output number on some Denso site I suppose.


Actually, if the output were only 35 amps, I'd consider that a plus for an A, as your 20 or 30 amp meter on the dash would be better suited to handle that than something with higher output. One other thing to consider, if you are worried about current output on your A, you might consider switching all your bulbs over to LEDs, which will reduce your current requirements by a bunch.


ONE THING TO KEEP IN MIND: As with all one wire alternators, some will require a brief blip of the throttle to get it to self excite. That is just the nature of the beast. The one on my 8N tractor is that way, the others seem to start without the throttle blip.


By the way, since my link will quickly become unlisted, you can just do an eBay search for "one wire mini alternator", and you will see several listed.
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Old 12-02-2018, 01:04 PM   #34
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Not quite true, the varnish insulation on the wire will still have a permanent hole in it.
The oil is not there for insulation, it's main purpose is for cooling.

This is correct, and one thing you should never do is to fire the coil without a path for the spark to follow to ground, or it will find it's own path. Like, for example, unhooking the coil wire or a plug wire, and snapping your points. That high voltage needs a path to ground, or it will find it's own path of the least resistance. If the path it finds is inside the coil, it will burn the insulation inside the windings, leading to coil failure. If the path it finds is across the output terminal insulator, it will burn a path, creating a carbon trail which will eventually ruin the coil. If you have a bad plug wire, it might cause a carbon trail inside the distributor cap. Not good...


Always provide a path or gap less than about 1/4" to protect the coil, if not, maybe you should buy stock in a coil mfg company instead. Yeah, they will take a few hits, but every internal arc does it's damage.


AND A POINT OF INTEREST: Coils are kind of weird. They can be 6v, and still need a resister, because they are actually 3v coils. They can be 6v on not need a resistor. They can be 12 Volt, and not need a resister or need a resister, because they have an internal resister or not. ETC. The only way to know you have the right coil for the application, is to purchase the correct one, and not rely on a marking that says 6volt or 12volt. Also, they can be for negative ground or positive ground systems, in either voltage, with or without an external resistor requirement. SO, purchase the correct coil, the markings on it won't keep you out of trouble. Not even measuring the resistance of the windings can keep you out of trouble.
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Old 12-02-2018, 01:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

Ignore - I wound up putting up 2 of the same thing!

Last edited by DHZIEMAN; 12-02-2018 at 01:13 PM. Reason: duplicate
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Old 12-02-2018, 01:11 PM   #36
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Corey, your link for the alternator doesn't seem to work. Could you post the ebay item number please.
I searched on "VINTAGE QUALITY REBUILT 14129 ALTERNATOR"

Popped right up with others!
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Old 12-03-2018, 10:43 AM   #37
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This is correct, and one thing you should never do is to fire the coil without a path for the spark to follow to ground, or it will find it's own path. Like, for example, unhooking the coil wire or a plug wire, and snapping your points. That high voltage needs a path to ground, or it will find it's own path of the least resistance. If the path it finds is inside the coil, it will burn the insulation inside the windings, leading to coil failure. If the path it finds is across the output terminal insulator, it will burn a path, creating a carbon trail which will eventually ruin the coil. If you have a bad plug wire, it might cause a carbon trail inside the distributor cap. Not good...


Always provide a path or gap less than about 1/4" to protect the coil, if not, maybe you should buy stock in a coil mfg company instead. Yeah, they will take a few hits, but every internal arc does it's damage.


AND A POINT OF INTEREST: Coils are kind of weird. They can be 6v, and still need a resister, because they are actually 3v coils. They can be 6v on not need a resistor. They can be 12 Volt, and not need a resister or need a resister, because they have an internal resister or not. ETC. The only way to know you have the right coil for the application, is to purchase the correct one, and not rely on a marking that says 6volt or 12volt. Also, they can be for negative ground or positive ground systems, in either voltage, with or without an external resistor requirement. SO, purchase the correct coil, the markings on it won't keep you out of trouble. Not even measuring the resistance of the windings can keep you out of trouble.
Corely, that's a good explanation.
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Last edited by katy; 12-03-2018 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Spelling correction
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:49 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Corley View Post
This is correct, and one thing you should never do is to fire the coil without a path for the spark to follow to ground, or it will find it's own path. Like, for example, unhooking the coil wire or a plug wire, and snapping your points. That high voltage needs a path to ground, or it will find it's own path of the least resistance. If the path it finds is inside the coil, it will burn the insulation inside the windings, leading to coil failure. If the path it finds is across the output terminal insulator, it will burn a path, creating a carbon trail which will eventually ruin the coil. If you have a bad plug wire, it might cause a carbon trail inside the distributor cap. Not good...


Always provide a path or gap less than about 1/4" to protect the coil, if not, maybe you should buy stock in a coil mfg company instead. Yeah, they will take a few hits, but every internal arc does it's damage.


AND A POINT OF INTEREST: Coils are kind of weird. They can be 6v, and still need a resister, because they are actually 3v coils. They can be 6v on not need a resistor. They can be 12 Volt, and not need a resister or need a resister, because they have an internal resister or not. ETC. The only way to know you have the right coil for the application, is to purchase the correct one, and not rely on a marking that says 6volt or 12volt. Also, they can be for negative ground or positive ground systems, in either voltage, with or without an external resistor requirement. SO, purchase the correct coil, the markings on it won't keep you out of trouble. Not even measuring the resistance of the windings can keep you out of trouble.

Please correct me - I am curious, if the coil is wired so the terminals are going to the correct polarity, should work for both? If not what is different for a positive vs. negative ground coils?


I did try quick searching, could not find info on this.
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:13 AM   #39
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

OOPS, my bad, sorry
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:11 PM   #40
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Default Re: Burning Out Ignition Coils

My understanding is that the terminal connected to the points should have a marking the same as the electrical system's ground.
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