Unusual cylinder heads

[hotcoupe]

Hello, Can anyone identify these cylinder heads. I have a pair and I believe they are pretty war, judging from the single water outlet.
Tom https://flic.kr/s/aHsmr6rxBm it

[Russ/40]

Cant get beyond 3 photos of your truck.
??????????????

[hotcoupe]

Well that didn't work, stand by.
Tom

[jrvariel48]

It works , you just have to click on "Back to album list"

[rotorwrench]

There was just a discussion here about Weiand cheater heads.

[hotcoupe]

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Let's try that again.
Tom https://www.flickr.com/gp/156277120@N07/r5M542
Bear with me fellows, I don't have any idea what I'm doing with this phone.

[JSeery]

Wouldn't it be easier to post the photos in the post as attachments?

[hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Wouldn't it be easier to post the photos in the post as attachments?

I tried to post as an attachment and I get a message about a security token or invalid something.
Tom

[V8COOPMAN]

Those surely are different! Can't say that I've ever seen a combustion chamber with that big dimple. I'd bet that those are not of Ford origin, but what do I know? DD

[42merc]

I think they are an aftermarket replacement head.
A lot of them were available at the parts houses back when, priced cheaper than the Ford dealer source.

Many frozen/broken heads in the '30s-'40s because folks used inexpensive alcohol for freeze protection rather than permanent anti-freeze in their autos.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by hotcoupe

I tried to post as an attachment and I get a message about a security token or invalid something.
Tom

What size are the photo files?

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Wouldn't it be easier to post the photos in the post as attachments?

The second photo shows "patented" across the middle of the head. Is there a way to contact the patent office & see if there is a way to find out whose patent it is?

[tubman]

Those heads are real "groovy". I wonder if the groove was an attempt to increase the size of the transfer area to the combustion chamber?

[jimTN]

Never seen W "cheater" heads like that. Check the rear side of those water outlets to see if there is anything stamped there.

[redmodelt]

Re: patented suggestion
No, not without a name or pat. number. They would need a name or number as place to start.

https://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search


You could try this;

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.htm

[Not George]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Wouldn't it be easier to post the photos in the post as attachments?

Thank you. it's easier for me.

[Flathead]

Interesting head design but I don't see any benefit. The groove kind of misses the transfer area.

[Ol' Ron]

Back a number of years ago I was testing several combustion chamber shapes for best flow. In the stock heads the 8BA and EAB are very good. However in a effort to increas compression the angle of the transfer area is important. For street I used an 8 degree angle when I was re chambering heads. and a 12 degree angle was best for flow. But the castings were not thick enough for this. The best chamber was a wedge chamber similar to the chevy 409 engine woth a 7 deg piston angle and an 8 Deg head angle. Tried to have Egge make a set of pistons, but they were to expensive. HOwever in 02 on a trip to Bville with JWL the pistons in that engine were of the wedge type. I don't believe any of this would have much an affect on a street engine.
Be interesting if someone could take this info and test it. Maybe Tod sould cast up a set of heads as well.

[petehoovie]

Maybe the 'groove' in those heads are to accommodate some sort of wedge or baffled pistons....

[mercman from oz]

Here is a picture of a pair of 21 stud Ford Heads. I believe that the one in the front showing the firing order is from a British Ford Pilot. The Ford Pilot V8's were sold from 1949 to 1951, or there abouts, and were a popular import to Australia. Can anyone confirm that this Head is off a Ford Pilot?

[JSeery]

Very interesting firing order call out.

[petehoovie]

Attached is a picture of the engine in my American made '37 Fordor Touring Sedan. Did Ford import the heads from England?....

[Tinker]

I want to say these heads were used mostly for industrial engines. Generators, etc. I can not document it, but just from recollection of previous posts.


I'm betting Bruce Lancaster knows. lighting the bat signal!!

[flatheadmurre]

Thoose heads was available as replacements within USA...i have a few of them NOS from an old dealership.

[Brian]

Whilst 77E 6050 heads were indeed used on Pilots, they are illustrated in Ford of Canada 'Fast Moving Parts Catalogue' as over the counter genuine Ford replacements for 37-38. I believe the plain head, as in top of the photo, were original factory fitted heads on 37-38

[Graeme / New Zealand]

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Wonder if the Canadian cast ones with the firing order on were cast initially for military application? Just saying because of the use of flattys in Bren gun carriers that were built in bulk there and other Commonwealth Countries. Probably a great way to remind the army mechanics when they were stuck out in the Desert and had to do a quick fix.....get the firing order all cocked up , with the machine "farting and carrying on", you might just end up with Rommel and the Afrika Korp on your ass. Post WWII use the parts up on Pilots and replacements for 37 -38s cars.

Question were these heads ever "factory" on 37 -38 cars anywhere?

GB

[Brian]

Question were these heads ever "factory" on 37 -38 cars anywhere?

I don't believe so...factory heads were plain as illustrated in mercman's photo. I think what you have suggested, being wartime issue is most likely.

[Mart]

I would tend to agree that the firing order callout probably has military origins. I have one of those engines in my 33 coupe.

Mart.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Brian

I believe the plain head, as in top of the photo, were original factory fitted heads on 37-38

The head shown below is a "factory-fitted" head for '37-'38 in the US. Notice that it has the Ford script below the lower, center hole and does not say "patented". That "patented" is a dead give-away that it is not a Ford-produced head. DD

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Back a number of years ago I was testing several combustion chamber shapes for best flow. In the stock heads the 8BA and EAB are very good. However in a effort to increas compression the angle of the transfer area is important. For street I used an 8 degree angle when I was re chambering heads. and a 12 degree angle was best for flow. But the castings were not thick enough for this. The best chamber was a wedge chamber similar to the chevy 409 engine woth a 7 deg piston angle and an 8 Deg head angle. Tried to have Egge make a set of pistons, but they were to expensive. HOwever in 02 on a trip to Bville with JWL the pistons in that engine were of the wedge type. I don't believe any of this would have much an affect on a street engine.
Be interesting if someone could take this info and test it. Maybe Tod sould cast up a set of heads as well.

I was thinking of it. Maybe I could fit it in while I work on block tooling. It wouldn't take long to make. What would people prefer, iron or aluminum?


Tod

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Tod

I was thinking of it. Maybe I could fit it in while I work on block tooling. It wouldn't take long to make. What would people prefer, iron or aluminum?


Tod

Aluminum is my vote

[Tinker]

If you are serious for 21 bolt heads. Aluminum for sure. 8:1 compression.


Granted H&H has done limit cast runs of the old 21 eddie meyers heads. Spendy for a reason.


Now I'm not sure how these heads preformed on cooling but maybe a version with at least a rear block outlet. Maybe just the center and rear outlet for a 21 variety. just a thought.

Sorry the picture is small...



Not related to any of this. but Then this guy...
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-ports.955593/

[Tinker]

Just a quick search on the original head question. If I get more, I'll add.

see post #6 on...

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...athead.298653/

[Tod]

I have a stock 21 stud head in house that I can use to get started. I would need a good combustion chamber and, if people want to see a 24 stud, as much data as I can get on that idea.



Tod

[flatheadmurre]

Are we going for stock look here ?
Otherwise start out with the Edmunds head design for the sparkplug location and ad some thickness for people to be able to shape the combustion shamber.
A good street head with the ability to open up the transfer area for increased flow would be nice !

[tubman]

I second "flatheadmurre" on moving the spark plug.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Are we going for stock look here ?
Otherwise start out with the Edmunds head design for the sparkplug location and ad some thickness for people to be able to shape the combustion shamber.
A good street head with the ability to open up the transfer area for increased flow would be nice !

Got any pictures?


Tod

[Brian]

The combustion chamber design in most cyl heads follows the shape of the head gasket. Along with relocating the spark plug to a more central position, you could narrow up the transfer area. It does not need to be full width, ie follow the gasket contour. Eddie Meyer 'pump in heads' heads follow this principle, as do some factory aluminum 'pump in head' heads, although they extend the transfer area further over the cylinder, which, in my opinion is not needed. The thing is to maximise flow, whilst still maintaining compression. The incoming fuel/air charge coming through the open inlet valve, wants to go up, not sideways. We need to redirect it 'sideways' through two 90 degree turns. Having the transfer area shaped into a deeper, narrower ,trench', aids in directing the flow into the cylinder, whilst still maintaining good compression. My opinion...

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Brian

The combustion chamber design in most cyl heads follows the shape of the head gasket. Along with relocating the spark plug to a more central position, you could narrow up the transfer area. It does not need to be full width, ie follow the gasket contour. Eddie Meyer 'pump in heads' heads follow this principle, as do some factory aluminum 'pump in head' heads, although they extend the transfer area further over the cylinder, which, in my opinion is not needed. The thing is to maximise flow, whilst still maintaining compression. The incoming fuel/air charge coming through the open inlet valve, wants to go up, not sideways. We need to redirect it 'sideways' through two 90 degree turns. Having the transfer area shaped into a deeper, narrower ,trench', aids in directing the flow into the cylinder, whilst still maintaining good compression. My opinion...

All I can come up with is this, so far:


Tod

[Brian]

Yes! That illustrates what I'm on about.

[Ol' Ron]

AS for the spark plug location, I think placing it in the center of the transfer area and at the same angle would be ideal for a street engine. The transfer area should extend at lead half way into the cylinder area. With the plug in this location it reduces the flame front , thus limiting the chance of detonation allowing a higher CR with regular gas.

Remember: There must be a reason for making a modification.

[Ol' Ron]

AS for the spark plug location, I think placing it in the center of the transfer area and at the same angle would be ideal for a street engine. The transfer area should extend at lead half way into the cylinder area. With the plug in this location it reduces the flame front , thus limiting the chance of detonation allowing a higher CR with regular gas.

Remember: There must be a reason for making a modification.

[Ian NZ]

Originally Posted by Graeme / New Zealand

Wonder if the Canadian cast ones with the firing order on were cast initially for military application? Just saying because of the use of flattys in Bren gun carriers that were built in bulk there and other Commonwealth Countries. Probably a great way to remind the army mechanics when they were stuck out in the Desert and had to do a quick fix.....get the firing order all cocked up , with the machine "farting and carrying on", you might just end up with Rommel and the Afrika Korp on your ass. Post WWII use the parts up on Pilots and replacements for 37 -38s cars.

Question were these heads ever "factory" on 37 -38 cars anywhere?

GB

The 77E 6050 heads were cast for wartime issue at Dangenham as the the Ford Pilots and the Thames trader truck chassis produced after the war were fitted with the left over V8 engines and parts which were surplus to the English military division from their two military depots and were not paid for too the Ford Motor Co until they were claimed, and the surplus were then returned to FoMoCo after the war and as far as I know there were no 21 stud V8 engines made at Dangenham after the war. In N.Z we had a good lot of Ford Pilots and Thames Trader trucks arrive here, I do not know if they were imported built up or assembled at FoMoCo, Seaview plant, Lower Hutt here .

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Ian NZ

The 77E 6050 heads were cast for wartime issue at Dangenham as the the Ford Pilots and the Thames trader truck chassis produced after the war were fitted with the left over V8 engines and parts which were surplus to the English military division from their two military depots and were not paid for too the Ford Motor Co until they were claimed, and the surplus were then returned to FoMoCo after the war and as far as I know there were no 21 stud V8 engines made at Dangenham after the war. In N.Z we had a good lot of Ford Pilots and Thames Trader trucks arrive here, I do not know if they were imported built up or assembled at FoMoCo, Seaview plant, Lower Hutt here .

I wonder why not 24 stud as opposed to 21 stud. After all, the 24 stud flathead V8 was introduced in 1938....

[petehoovie]

What does the EFV8 Club 1937 Ford Restoration Manual say about these heads with the firing order cast on them???