R10 Overdrive Issue

[Bill S]

When I was using a 6 volt system I had a problem with the solenoid pulling in. I ran an extra wire to it using the stock wire with the new wire. Use a 10 gauge. After that I did not have a problem.

[fredv]

I tried with the new solenoid (NOS) and nothing new.
With the car on the road and at the speed of approximately 30 mph, I can't hear the solenoid click, just pinion noise from the OD.
The transmission doesn't shift into overdrive.
I performed again the ignition grounding contact test and again, the engine doesn't stop when I pressed the kickdown switch.
As I never drove a car with such overdrive, can you hear the solenoid click when the OD is engaging when you drive the car ?
Maybe the problem is related to the wiring

[40cpe]

I haven't driven an electric OD car in quite a while. I only remember hearing the relay on the firewall click. Both the relay and the solenoid kick in at the same time, so you will probably only hear the louder of the two.

I had a switch on mine that would ground the governor terminal so I could engage/disengage the OD at will. If I was sitting still and grounded the governor terminal, I could hear the solenoid kick in.

I'm sorry you are having problems with the car because the OD really is nice when it is working correctly.

FWIW, Here is a link to the Early V8 site where someone is asking for troubleshooting advice. There is a picture of a tool to simulate the solenoid.
http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/vie...=18&Topic=7817

[fredv]

Thanks 40cpe,
When I ground the TH switch terminal on the relay with a jumper, I can hear both relay and solenoid clicking, while when I drive the car, I cant' hear anything.
I tested the solenoid on the bench applying power on the blue wire and it works.
I will need to go to the wiring again and repeat all tests in the shop manual.
Thanks to confirm that it is nice to drive when it's working ....

[donald1950]

your govenor could be bad or the kick down swutch could be bad

[scooder]

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You can test the governor on the bench. I use a continuity tester and a drill motor.
Lightly clamp the governor in the vice, put the end of the governor drive ( below the gear) in the chuck and a continuity tester connected to the governor case and to the wire terminal. As you speed up the drill, the continuity tester will sound when you get it up to speed. Then go quiet as you slow down.
See what happens.
Martin.

[fredv]

Kickdown switch is new and I already tested the governor on the car, engine and transmission running on stands, with a lamp. Governor is working.

[donald1950]

if the govenor works (puts out a ground signal at 28mph), the relay works under control of the govenor and solonoid works under control of the relay and the OD unit works on the bench then when driving over 28 mph and you hear the relay and solonoid energize, just back of the gas and you will feel the unit drop into gear and feel a little compression braking untill you accelerate. if you dont hear the relay operate check all your wireing by tracing one wire at a time... that is exactly how mine works in my 53 car.... i have owned 7 cars with ODs and have found all kinds of crazy stuf wrong with the wireing. even has a weak relay that would not energize teh solonoid and a bad ignitions switch that would not pass enough current to operate teh solonoid... PM me with a phone # and i can talk with you if you wish. the transmission always worked after teh other problems were sorted out....

[rotorwrench]

The wiring for these old overdrives lives in a wet weather invironment. Most of the old cloth wired systems had plastic tubing to help protect the wires but it didn't last a long time under harsh conditions.

New wiring available should be carefully scutinized for quality and proper gauge of wire, proper terminal installation, and when problems arrize with it, it should be tested with an ohm meter for continuity. If you haven't already hot wired the solenoid to the battery as was previously suggested, then you should try that and see if it will kick in to OD. It's best to rig it with a switch so you can control it and shut it back off. Even new switches should be tested with an ohm meter when problems arrize. Just because they are new doesn't mean they are working properly. Test everything.

There are at least three different length operating plunger rods in the different solenoids. You have to make sure you have the correct length operating plunger rod. I think there are 1-inch, 1.25-inch, and an even longer one for the convertible cars. I think Ford used the 1-inch protrusion plunger rod. I have a tool for manual ingagement of the pawl that can be made from an old plunger rod. With a tool like this you can manually engage the pawl and feel for it dropping into the gear ring when the throttle is let off for shift while being operationally tested on jack stands. This would also make sure the mechanicals are working inside the transmission.

[fredv]

Thanks all for your input.
As I said, wiring is new as I fabricate it myself with the proper gauge according to the Ford wiring diagram.
I compared the lenght of the plunger on the 3 solenoid that I have and lenght is the same on the 3.
The car was originally not equiped with the OD, so I purchase all items.
The only thing that is not Ford original is the relay, it's a standard relay.
The weird thing is that each componant that I tested seems to work individually, but when I drove the car, nothing happened.
I follow all checks in the shop manual, and everything works, except when I test the solenoid grounding contacts.
The shop manual says that, with the solenoid attached to the adapter and the white wire from the governor grounded, engine shall stop when the kickdown switch is pushed.
When I push the kickdown switch, I can hear the solenoid and relay click, meaning that the solenoid is no more energized, but engine doesn't stop as it should.

When I drive the car and reach 28 mph, I left off my foot of the gas pedal and the OD does not engage.
If I keep my foot on the gas pedal above 28 mph, I can hear little pinion noise from the OD unit.

Donald, thanks for your proposal, but I am in France so it might be difficult to talk about that, and my technical English is not perfect...
I will go back to the wiring diagram and try to test all componants again.

Rotorwrench, could you indicate how to hot wire the solenoid and if there will be no harm to the solenoid, as I don't want to dammage it (these little things are not cheap!).
I can make such tool, as I have an old plunger...
Thanks again for your help.

[Mike51Merc]

fredv,

You say "standard relay". The OD relay needs to be a high current continuous duty relay that is triggered by ground.

[rotorwrench]

Those overdrive relays will pass more current than a lot of modern relays are capable of. Make sure your operating relay will pass enough current to properly operate the solenoid.

Any source of direct battery power to the solenoid operating terminal should make it energize (big click). The solenoid has a ground path through the transmission & engine. It should also have a good ground path back to the battery if its grounding strap attaches to the engine like many ford cars do.

[donald1950]

i think rotor wrench may have it. you need correct parts. and a ford relay may be dificult to find in france but thats what you should have....

[40cpe]

You can connect it directly to a good voltage source to eliminate the relay. Use heavy wire, preferably 10 ga but at least 12 ga. If you wire it through a quality toggle switch, use one rated for at least 30 amps.

Connect to a source that can supply adequate voltage and current such as at the battery or at the starter solenoid.

[fredv]

I know that an original relay will be better, but the relay that I have is energizing the solenoid during the tests. The click sounds the same when the solenoid is tested directly with the battery and threw the relay...
How can I check if my relay pass enough juice to the solenoid?
If I hot wire the solenoid for test, I connect the blue wire to the battery using a switch to activate it. What about the orange wire on the solenoid?

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by fredv

I know that an original relay will be better, but the relay that I have is energizing the solenoid during the tests. The click sounds the same when the solenoid is tested directly with the battery and threw the relay...
How can I check if my relay pass enough juice to the solenoid?
If I hot wire the solenoid for test, I connect the blue wire to the battery using a switch to activate it. What about the orange wire on the solenoid?

The orange wire is the "engine killer" connection for the kickdown switch. You don't need to connect it to anything for this test.

To hot wire the solenoid, just get a wire with a set of alligator clips and connect it to the solenoid feed wire and the battery (or a nearby power source like the heavy voltage regulator wire).

If your relay is not rated for continuous use (like a headlight relay compared to a horn relay), the relay can overheat causing several problems.

Sorry but none of this really explains your grinding sound. From my limited experience, the OD either works or it doesn't work.

[fredv]

Thanks for the tip, I will try that also.
You're right, none of this explains the grinding sound, but I want to be sure that the electric controls are working before remove the transmission from the car and overhaul it again.
So today, I repeat all electrical checks, I removed the governor fom the transmission and test it on the bench, it's working.
I checked the kickdown switch, it's working.
I check the pawl engagement with the balk ring gear, with the solenoid cover removed, and the governor grounded, the solenoid is energized and stem move as it should (1/8 inch):



When I turned the drive shaft by hand, the solenoid stem move again (3/8 inch) and the pawl engage the balk ring gear as the drive shaft is locked in both directions:



I came to the conclusion that my relay is good (at least for test), that the governor is working, that the solenoid also works.

This is the relay that I am using:



This is the wiring diagram that I used to make my wiring system (except that the relay fuse is 15 amps as my car is 12 volt and I do not have rail switch on my OD).



I still don't understand why I can't hear the cliks from relay and solenoid when I drive the car on the road.
It seems that each electric system is working individually, but the whole system doesn't work...

[40cpe]

That relay looks much like a factory OD relay. I don't know how much noise is in the interior of your car while on the road but road noise could drown the clicks out. The relay is sure to be closing to put enough juice to the solenoid to make the grinding sound. If you suspect it is not closing, run your test meter leads to the relay and take it for a drive. Or install a pilot light. Or by-pass it with a toggle switch.

[fredv]

The relay only looks like factory relay but it is not.
One thing that I noticed during the checks is that when ignition is on, the black terminal on the relay have juice before and after the fuse (from the coil), and TH SW terminal on relay (red on my wiring) have juice too.
When I ground the TW SW terminal, both relay and solenoid are clicking.
Sure it not easy to hear clicks while the car is on the road.
Can you detail how to install pilot light?
You might have noticed that I am not an expert with electrics ...

[40cpe]

To wire a pilot light to monitor the presence of voltage you ground the negative side of the bulb and run the positive wire to the point you want to monitor. The wires can be reversed unless it is an LED bulb. You can run the hot wire from the bulb to the wire on the relay that feeds the solenoid. Or you can carry the pilot bulb hot wire all the way to the solenoid connection if you want to be sure voltage is getting all the way to the connection.