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Old 06-16-2022, 04:18 PM   #1
scicala
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Default '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

I may be working on a '63 T-Bird factory tri power on a 390 engine.
For some reason, T-Birds used different front and rear secondary carbs (LIST 2497 and 2498), where as the pass cars used the same carb front and rear (LIST 2437). Both T-Bird and Ford shared the same primary center carb (LIST 2436).
My confusion is that the rear carb on this set up has a choke like the center carb, and a slightly different throttle lever than the front carb.
My gutt feeling is that the rear carb has been modified by adding the choke and different shaft/lever. I don't think They would make this originally with a choke on the center and rear carb only.

Does anyone have knowledge of the different T-Bird secondary carbs, or possibly pictures of the LIST 2497 and 2498 ?

Thanks for any help.

Sal
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Old 06-16-2022, 05:43 PM   #2
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Question Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Are there any FORD ID STAMPINGS at the LIST NOS.?
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Old 06-16-2022, 08:23 PM   #3
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

I’ll bet if alt63bird doesn’t know, he’d know who does. Might try a pm if he doesn’t chime in.
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Old 06-16-2022, 08:38 PM   #4
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Quote:
Originally Posted by miker98038 View Post
I’ll bet if alt63bird doesn’t know, he’d know who does. Might try a pm if he doesn’t chime in.
Thanks for the info. I'll wait a little while to see if he chimes in.

Sal
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Old 06-16-2022, 08:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
Are there any FORD ID STAMPINGS at the LIST NOS.?
Yes, it's as follows:

Center carb - C1AE-9510-AA LIST 2436
Front carb - C2SE-9510-A LIST 2497
Rear carb - C2SE-9510 -B LIST 2498

Thank you, Sal
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

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(Edited/corrected 6/18/22) Your center carb should be C2SE 9510-A, List # 2497. The one you have is the Galaxie version, as evidenced by the part number C1AE (full-size Ford), but I'm confused about 9510-AA as C1AE 9510-AA is listed in parts books to be a Ford-Autolite 2-barrel carb for a '61 Y-block 292-2v. For the '61 Galaxie 390-6v package offered mid-production 1961, it should be C1AE 9510-AV, so you may want to recheck and post photos of your carb, air horns and metering block numbers. Numbers on the T-bird-issued carbs were unchanged during the tri-power offering on M-Series 340hp T-bird 390s from mid-1962 production Jan-Feb '62 through January 1963.

Difference between front C2SE 9510-E / List 2499 and rear C2SE 9510-B / List 2498 secondary carbs is the front one had a bracket for the anti-stall dashpot required for use with an automatic transmission. Galaxies were not available with a slushbox, hence front and rear were same. That's called out in the parts book listings - pictured is the carb listing from Ford's Master Parts Catalog (MPC) circa 1967-1968, Section 95, page 17 of the text portion.

Only the center carb should have the automatic choke assembly. Throttle arms are different between the Galaxie and T-bird primary carbs - the Galaxie version has an arm with a straight side and a narrow L-shaped plate riveted to it, while the T-bird arm forms a 'C' - see the picture below of the T-bird-style arm on the center carb and compare against the pictures of the C1AE 9510-AV / List 2436 carb.

Metering blocks also differ between the center and outboard carbs. The T-bird primary carb's metering block number is 3559, while the secondary carb's metering block number for both front and rear carbs is 3563.

Some info can be found on the T-bird tri-power setup by searching in the 1961-1963 T-bird section of the VTCI Forum at www. vintagethunderbirdclub.net and in VTCI's 1961-1963 Original Factory Specifications Manual.

BTW my 63 T-bird HT has the M-Series induction system - I finally found the correct carbs for it after having Joe Bunetic go through an incorrectly stamped set that I had him install the correct throttle arms on 17 years ago. I need to get the correct set restored and replace the ones I currently have on my hardtop.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 60-68 MPC Sec95 p17 Chg 35 9510 62-63 M-series list.jpg (97.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20201210_090152088.jpg (22.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_7528.jpg (53.6 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg (14.5 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (6).jpg (13.9 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg (13.0 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 60-68 MPC Sec95 p17 Chg 35 61-62 9510 390 carbs.jpg (92.0 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 60-68 MPC Sec95 p17 Chg 35 9510 -61 390-6v.jpg (13.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 60-68 MPC 9510 Chg 35 60-62 292 carbs.jpg (77.7 KB, 7 views)
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Last edited by alt63bird; 06-18-2022 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Updated / corrected PNs/List #s
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

The information on this site from many members never ceases to amaze me. Thanks to all of you.
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Old 06-17-2022, 04:01 AM   #8
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Post Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Quote:
Originally Posted by scicala View Post

Yes, it's as follows:

Center Carb - C1AE-9510-AA LIST 2436
Front Carb - C2SE-9510-A LIST 2497
Rear Carb - C2SE-9510 -B LIST 2498

Thank you, Sal
You don't need to thank me Sal as I learn from all of this -

The MPC (1960-64 FINAL ISSUE) calls for -

CENTER - C2SE-9510-A - LIST 2497
FRONT - C2SE-9510-E - LIST 2499
REAR- C2SE-9510-B - LIST 2498

The MPC is a period time shot on application, meaning the carbs are listed as of the catalog printing. It will not give you all correct info. You would need earlier issues and any TSB's of the period. And then you will have to get into DATE CODES.

Is the customer concerned about a dedicated restoration or just a correct appearing assembly to be used on a driver?

Are you close enough to get photo(s)? After all of this time, it will be difficult to determine any and all modifications.

OFFICIAL KULTULZ EDIT ... yes, again ...

To be accurate, FORD CATALOGING does not give HOLLEY LIST NOS. I added that from cross-referencing ...
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Last edited by KULTULZ; 06-17-2022 at 07:23 AM. Reason: THE USUAL
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Old 06-17-2022, 11:09 AM   #9
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Quote:
Originally Posted by alt63bird View Post
Your center carb should be C2SZ 9510-C, List # 2499. The one you have is the Galaxies version. Numbers were unchanged during its offering on M-Series 340hp T-bird 390s from mid 1962 production Jan-Feb '62 through January 1963.

Difference between front and rear secondary carbs is the front one had a bracket for the anti-stall dashpot required for use with an automatic transmission. Galaxies were not available with a slushbox, hence front and rear were same.

Only the center carb should have the choke. Throttle arms are different between the Galaxies and T-bird primary carbs - Galaxies version has a straight one while T-bird forms a 'C'. Metering blocks also differ but I don't have those numbers committed to memory right now.

Lots of info can be found on the T-bird tripower setup by searching in the 1961-1963 T-bird section of the VTCI Forum at www. vintagethunderbirdclub.net and in VTCI's 1961-1963 Original Factory Specifications Manual.

BTW my 63 T-bird HT has the M-Series induction system - I finally found the correct carbs for it after having Joe Bunetic go through an incorrectly stamped set that I had him install the correct throttle arms on 17 years ago. I need to get the correct set restored and replace the ones currently have on my hardtop.

Thank you very much for the valuable and hard to find info to all.
I've contacted the owner with this info and leaving it up to him on if he cares about 100% correct or not.
Pretty sure I can make it work with what he has, although it will resemble a Galaxie set up.
Those T-Bird center carbs (2499) have to be as rare as hen's teeth.

Thanks again, Sal
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Old 06-17-2022, 06:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

(Edited 6/17/22) Aw crap... That's what I get for going off of memory and not opening my laptop or a parts book to check the info before hitting send. At least I originally got the List number right. I have gone back and edited the original post and added pics along with metering block numbers. Mentally challenging myself again...
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Last edited by alt63bird; 06-17-2022 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Updated original-referenced post
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Old 06-17-2022, 06:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Quote:
Originally Posted by alt63bird View Post
Aw crap ... That's what I get for going off of memory and not opening my laptop or a parts book to check the info before hitting send. At least I got the List number right - will go back and edit original post and maybe add pics later this weekend along with metering block numbers. Mentally challenging myself again...

Thanks again !
Metering block numbers would be great if you have them.

Sal
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Old 06-17-2022, 10:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Quote:
Originally Posted by scicala View Post
Thanks again !
Metering block numbers would be great if you have them.

Sal
Primary - C2SE 9510-A / List 2497 metering block - 3559
Secondary-Front - C2SE 9510-E / List 2499 metering block - 3563
Secondary-Rear - C2SE 9510-B / List 2498 metering block - 3563

Pictures of the 'frankenstein' carb setup with the C1AE-AV center carb and choke, along with the C2SE-B rear carb you have with a choke on it would be appreciated to try and figure out what happened. I suspect the original center carb was swapped out a long time ago, but no idea why the rear would have been outfitted with a choke, especially since the hot air tube for the choke was originally set up for the center carb's choke and the rear carb might get in the way of the accelerator rod from the firewall to the bellcrank in front of the front carb. The accelerator rod on a T-bird manifold is bent to clear the center choke housing.

BTW C1AE 9510-AA is listed in the MPCs as a Ford-design 2-barrel carb for a Y-block 292.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_7401.jpg (40.5 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_7404.jpg (50.7 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_7399.jpg (49.1 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2392.jpg (83.1 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2389.jpg (78.5 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2390.jpg (61.5 KB, 23 views)
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Last edited by alt63bird; 06-18-2022 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Updated info on C1AE-AA vs C1AE-AV carb
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Old 06-18-2022, 04:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

For those who are wondering, below are pictures of the C1AE-AU / List 2437 secondary and C1AE-AV / List 2436 primary carbs used on the Galaxie '61 390 and '62 406 tri-powers. The metering block number on the -AV carb is not the right one. Note the L-shaped bracket riveted to the throttle arm of the C1AE-AV primary carburetor versus the C-shaped one used on the C2SE-A version and the style used on the secondary carbs.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg (14.5 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg (13.0 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (4).jpg (16.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (1).jpg (15.8 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (10).jpg (13.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (17).jpg (15.7 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (22).jpg (13.3 KB, 13 views)
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Last edited by alt63bird; 06-18-2022 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 06-18-2022, 05:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Well crap, now you got me thinking. going to have to go out on a ladder to see what that tri power intake and carbs I have up on shelf actually is. I do remember it has 3 into 1 ported vacuum tubes for advance on carbs. Was a treasured gift so I never questioned at the time. I am curious about the PCV system on above photos of rose beige/desert rose Thunderbird. Was it a stop gap system for California cars and how did it cover the dual plane intake? Strange how Ford made chrome kits available to owners that only looked under the hood once in a lifetime. Sorry for OT, beautiful T bird engine, and thanks for carb pics.
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Old 06-18-2022, 05:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

The PCV setup for the T-bird tri-power was unique to itself with the pull-off under the center carb and tube/fitting for the PCV valve before being connected to the hose nipple on top of the rear of the manifold. The Galaxie stair-step manifold had the pull-off under the rear carb. All of them got it, regardless of where sold.

BTW I'm on the lookout for a bare Ford-issued stair-step tri-power intake as I have a set of rebuilt carbs and other Galaxie-correct parts needing an intake to set them on. And if I'm not careful maybe a '63 XL with a 390 to set that on, too...
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Old 06-18-2022, 07:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

I really appreciate all of this information from everyone that has contributed.
So, bottom line what I have is two primary carbs, one t-bird (2797 with c-lever and auto choke), and one Galaxie (2436 with "L" lever and auto choke), and one t-bird secondary carb (2498 no choke).
I think I can still make it all work by removing the choke on one of the primary carbs.

Also, this is on a T-Bird manifold (no angled incline), but is actually being used on a 63 1/2 Galaxie with a 390.

Sal
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Old 06-18-2022, 09:59 PM   #17
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

You do realize the reason for the 'stair-step' on a Galaxie manifold is because the engine sits at an angle: with the stair-step, the carburetors are "level" in the engine bay. The 'flat' T-bird manifold is set up that way because the T-bird engine is mounted level in its engine bay.

My recommendation is to find a Galaxie stair-step manifold to use in a Galaxie, and sell/trade the T-bird one towards the stair-step. Trust me on this one.
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Old 06-19-2022, 05:03 AM   #18
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Post Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Quote:
So, bottom line what I have is two primary carbs, one t-bird (2797 with c-lever and auto choke), and one Galaxie (2436 with "L" lever and auto choke), and one t-bird secondary carb (2498 no choke).
I think I can still make it all work by removing the choke on one of the primary carbs.

Also, this is on a T-Bird manifold (no angled incline), but is actually being used on a 63 1/2 Galaxie with a 390.
Yeah, he is going about it all wrong. He needs a dedicated setup for a FORD. He is better off (IMO) to piece out and sell the BIRD parts and acquire the correct parts. I don't see ever getting that balanced.

A FORD 390/401HP setup for a 390/300HP may be overkill.
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Old 06-19-2022, 11:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Yes, I realive the T-bird engine was level and the Galaxie was on an incline because of hood clearance on the Bird. Have to do some thinking here.

Sal
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Old 06-20-2022, 10:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: '62 - '63 T-Bird 390 factory tri power

Galaxie engine sat at same level incline as all available engines, the unibody Lincolns and birds are the odd ducks. Had a 68 Continental with the new 385 series 460. The carb spacer plate for pcv was noticeably wedge shaped to accommodate leveling of carb and engine angle. JMO but if you use a bird intake on a galaxie body car it's going to be running down hill from front to back. Just observations over the years.
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