Early Rear Hubs

[Ed Saniewski]

We were having our club garage clinic over the week end and when I went to pull a rear hub on an early 28 car I found no axle hub gasket. There was no recess in the hub for the seal to sit in. Was this something on the early cars? I put a little Permatex sealer on the washer and torqued the nut. Thanks.

[d.j. moordigian]

Yep,...that's the way they were..

Dudley

[Ed Saniewski]

When did they start casting a recess in the hub for the seal?

[Ron in Quincy]

The Castle Nut (a Special hardened 5/8-18 so it will take at least 100 lbs. torque without damaging the axel threads) does not use a hardened washer but torques directly to the end of the early 28 drum. If you install a washer there is not enough room when the drum is torqued to install the cotter key.

Ron

[d.j. moordigian]

I thought it was in the Service Bulletins,..but I didn't find it. I would guess and say about
the change in the brake system..

[d.j. moordigian]

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Originally Posted by Ron in Quincy

The Castle Nut (a Special hardened 5/8-18 so it will take at least 100 lbs. torque without damaging the axel threads) does not use a hardened washer but torques directly to the end of the early 28 drum. If you install a washer there is not enough room when the drum is torqued to install the cotter key.

Ron

Ron,...I have an NOS rear drum(which I'm sure carried the "AR" part number.
It has the late style hub, lug studs and has the counter bore for the gasket
at the axle nut..

[mlp623]

Originally Posted by Ron in Quincy

The Castle Nut (a Special hardened 5/8-18 so it will take at least 100 lbs. torque without damaging the axel threads) does not use a hardened washer but torques directly to the end of the early 28 drum. If you install a washer there is not enough room when the drum is torqued to install the cotter key.

Ron

What we found was we could install the steel washer and torque to 100 and install cotter but not if we used the steel washer and the seal.

I think we also noticed that the brake roller pins were smaller in diameter - we had to open up the hole in the brake shoe for new ones to fit.

Matt

[Ron in Quincy]

Matt,

To my knowledge the brake shoe roller pin diameter has always been the same. Is it possible that the new ones you got my have not been made to the original diameter ?

Ron

[Tom Wesenberg]

I was thinking the same as Ron, and wondering if the new pins are oversized?

[mlp623]

Brattons pins, so I don't think so. Definitely would not fit though. I guess it is possible that the shoes were not correct? I will take pictures of the pins to compare.

[Ed Saniewski]

Matt, do you have a picture of the pin's I removed from the Shoes? The holes in the shoes may have been welded up the last time they were redone.I gust reamed them out ever so lightly to fit the new pin. The old pins had an unusual oversize head with what appears to be one flat side.

Ron, When I removed Matt's Hub, there was only a castle nut. I thought all cars had the washer under the nut. As Matt said, I was able to get the nut torqued to 100 ft./lb. with the washer and a cotter key.

Matt, Nick and I made it to Flint for the membership meet, but the forcast is for rain and snow most of the weekend.

[Ron in Quincy]

Matt,

My A1276 had the flat side brake shoe pins.

The flat side pins were released Dec. 7, 1927 and only used thru Jan. 1928, when the pins, adjustment clevis, mounting bolts, brake shoe wedge, and dust cover were changed to the design used through end of production.

There were lots of changes to the braking system Ford made from start of production thru Jan. 1928; the Engineers were trying to solve a front wheel lock up problem; when they finally changed the adjusting wedge so it would only move up and down and not sideways was the problem solved.

Ron

[Ed Saniewski]

Ron, the brake shoe wedge on Matt's car has a large washer holding the wedge in place and allowing it to slide up and down. Was this also part of the early brake system?

[Gary Karr]

My A3261 also came with the early brake pins with a flat side, making them look like a "D" shaped head.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Since the pin slides without turning, it seems like a flat side for a larger contact area would be a better design.

[d.j. moordigian]

Do you fellas have a photo(s) of EXACTLY what your talking about,..please?

I do have some of the v-early brake parts..

[Ron in Quincy]

Attach are some photos.

[d.j. moordigian]

Thanks Ron...

[Ed Saniewski]

Ron, Matt's pins were a large D shape, the photo you posted shows an oval shape. I hope Matt can post some photos.

[mlp623]

Ah - That makes a lot of sense. We thought the D shape was an improperly installed pin. They are over at the garage, I will grab them tonight to take pictures. Should have them up in the AM.

Ed - Good luck at the membership meeting. Hope you sell that fordor.

[mlp623]

Originally Posted by Ed Saniewski

Ron, Matt's pins were a large D shape, the photo you posted shows an oval shape. I hope Matt can post some photos.

Here are a few photos.
Top View - On the left is a Bratton's replacement, on the right is the original removed with the D shaped head.

Bottom View - On the left is a Bratton's replacement, on the right is the original removed with the D shaped head.

Repalcement:

Original:

[Ron in Quincy]

As a added note: the "D" shaped pins were installed so the flat side of the pin rode on the track; the tracks on my A1276 were nice and flat, no grove like the later round head pins create.

Probable cost was a factor why "Ford" went to the round head pins ?

I personally think the "D" head pins were superior, and did a good job, why it took so long for the Engineers to determine the Wedge with the round hole was the problem.

Ron

[Ed Saniewski]

Matt, I looked through the info you sent me and you have the round hole wedges that Ron is talking about in post # 22.

Ron, will the round holed wedges give Matt trouble?

[Ron in Quincy]

Ed,

When I was assembling my front shoes and before I connected the brake rods I manually operated the lever to determine if I needed any pills to remove any play on the push rods, when working on the left front on two occasions when I released the lever the wedge cocked sideways and did not release; that is when I started looking into the problem and of course found many changes to the front shoes from start of production thru Feb. 28 when the new wedge with the slot up and down solved the cocking problem.
I went ahead and used the wedge with the round hole knowing I would not be driving my LT. Delivery very much or very fast. When I made the mandatory tour in fine point judging in the National MARC meet in San Diego I took it easy so I would not have to jam on my brakes and take the chance that one front shoe would lock up. Today I only have 28.3 miles on the A.
If you plan on driving the A I would suggest you consider changing the front wedges to the later type. You will have to make a modifications to the backing plate track as the later tracks are recessed so the wedge is locked in a vertical position.

Just for you information, the very first backing plates did not have roller tracks, then the tracks were added, then the "D" shoe pins came out, and finally the new wedge. Once the problem was solved there were no more changes to the front braking system thru end of production.

Ron

[Tom Wesenberg]

Even with the early system, it seems if the brakes are kept properly adjusted, there would be such little movement of the wedge that it couldn't cock sideways. I've never worked on the very early system, so maybe there is something I'm not seeing.

[Ron in Quincy]

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Tom,

Believe me, the early wedge with round hole can cock sideway and not release.

As you know, during the "A" era "Ford" did not make recalls like they do today. In reading the various letters, Indianapolis, Fargo, etc. dealers were told " if the customer complains, here is how to solve the problem; a good example is the non-adjustable brake rods, they dropped the punched out stops in the center cross member, later found they needed them; in the Fargo Letters it shows a bracket to be added to make stops; Ford just went back and punched out the stops on new frames. No call backs !!!!

Ron

[Ed Saniewski]

Thanks for heads up on the wedge, I noticed the exact problem when I was assembling the hubs, I never thought about them cocking sideways while braking.