33 phaeton 4 cylinder- crank pulley too close to U bolts

[ceejay]

Hi all

My car is a 33 phaeton which currently has a flathead 4 cylinder model B engine.

I have not worked on the car after purchase much and have just run into a problem.

The crank pulley is very close to the front leaf Spring U boots. So close that I can't remove the fan belt.

What could have gone wrong here ??

Anyone else with a 33 4 cylinder have photos of this area ?

[petehoovie]

Check for collapsed/squished front motor mount....

[Kurt in NJ]

The 33-34 cars used a shorter pulley, a different front cover and a shorter water pump than 28-32

[ceejay]

This is the engine in it. It is quite possible that it not the correct type.
You folks will be able to tell by looking at the photo I guess

[ceejay]

Engine

[rockfla]

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Is it quite possible that the rear end was replaced in your car at some point? The V8 and 4 cyl rear ends have different length torque tubes, the 4 cyl torque tube is some 2" shorter than the V8 one. Perhaps that is what is pushing your engine so far forward? I believe the V8 tt is around 60 (plus a fraction) inches long, the 4 cyl is around 58 (plus a fraction) long.

[whizzernick]

i always thought it was 1 " shorter , i have been wrong in the past

[rockfla]

This information was covered in a post on 1/19/2016. The 4 cylinder is longer than a V8, the torque tube for the v8 is 60-5/32" in length, the 4 cylinder is 58-7/16" in length.....my bet is that some one replaced the rear end at some point NOT noticing that the 4 cyl rear torque tube was shorter. At the point of bolting the transmission I can't imagine them not knowing at that point BUT stranger things can happen...I guess!!

[rockfla]

And as Petehovie posted earlier, the front engine mounts would be a point of interest in either situation, especial in the case of the wrong rear end.

[jimTN]

It appears from the front of engine pic that your engine is definitely too low because the hand crank would not hit the pulley rachet in the center. I would also check the trans mt to see which way it is facing.

[DavidG]

Sorry to disagree, but ceejay's engine is not too far forward. Please look at his second photo and I think that you will agree that there's no room between the back of the cylinder head and the firewall for the engine to be moved rearward.

The front spring U-bolts have been replaced to accommodate what appears to be a length of reinforcing steel added to the front of that portion of the cross member that houses the front spring. The replacement bolts appear to be thicker than the original and that is contributing to the lack of adequate clearance between the crankshaft pulley. Next, the front cross member itself was replaced along the way as that looks to be a '34 front cross member and not a '33. What's there is bolted in and that could subtract a little bit of clearance if not installed carefully. The crank pulley itself is not a Ford part as the originals were cast, not stamped, and as jimTN points out, the engine is sitting too low in front, probably the result of tired motor mount insulators.

Every little bit counts up there on a '33-'34 four banger as even with everything by the book it takes a lot of effort to remove or install a fan belt. The photos below are not at the same angle as ceejay's, but they will illustrate just how little room there is up front between the crank pulley and the front cross member (and between the rear of the cylinder block and the firewall).

[ceejay]

Originally Posted by DavidG

The front spring U-bolts have been replaced to accommodate what appears to be a length of reinforcing steel added to the front of that portion of the cross member that houses the front spring. The replacement bolts appear to be thicker than the original and that is contributing to the lack of adequate clearance between the crankshaft pulley. Next, the front cross member itself was replaced along the way as that looks to be a '34 front cross member and not a '33. What's there is bolted in and that could subtract a little bit of clearance if not installed carefully.

David you mentioned some interesting possibilities... How does one differentiate a 33 cross member from a 34 ?

Is it possible that my car was originally fitted with this cross member as it was made in December 1933 ? serieal number is B5251035

[DavidG]

ceejay,

I can see in your photos the bolts used to install the replacement cross member (it is not unusual for it to have been replaced as '33 with the original front cross member riveted in place seem to be fewer than surviving '33s with a '34 service replacement cross member). The photo below is of a mid to late '33 cross member. Note the scalloped area around the front of the spring U-bolt shanks.

I believe that you are misinterpreting my comment about your front cross member. It does not matter if it is a '33 or '34 cross member as four-cylinder engines were made in both model years. What matters is that by being bolted in, it is not as secure as the original rivets and therefore may have moved slightly rearward over the years with use (which would seem to be lots of use in your instance judging from your photos).

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by ceejay

Hi all

My car is a 33 phaeton which currently has a flathead 4 cylinder model B engine.

I have not worked on the car after purchase much and have just run into a problem.

The crank pulley is very close to the front leaf Spring U boots. So close that I can't remove the fan belt.

What could have gone wrong here ??

Anyone else with a 33 4 cylinder have photos of this area ?

Hey ceejay,
I do not see a problem with the location of your pulley (closeness) to front cross member.

Ok, I don't see as well as some, so the front crank hole MAY be lower than should be....but that has nothing to do with closeness issue.

I just changed out my stock front motor mount, for a replacement '32/'34 four cyl type mount. My front pulley/belt situation looked EXACTLY like your picture. I could NOT get fan belt off without taking engine rear moto-mounts loose and jacking up front of engine...then easy.

This '32 GAZ B engine is in my '30 roadster. Now, guys sometimes change FRONT pulley to larger or smaller pulley...makes a difference in clearance and can change pump/alt/gen speed. I just took off a small pulley and replaced it with a large crank harmonic balancer /pulley.

Of course, people could have changed 'things' around on a car this old. But IMO, the front pulley in your car ended up where it belongs.

If I were in your position with your car, I would check front/rear motor mounts to see if they are proper or need freshening up and adjusted right...because as someone mentioned...the CRANK hole and crank should match up if engine is setting good angle. Make sure all rubber parts are still present and functional. If keeping the 4 cyl, I'd replace rubber and be sure to tighten bolts/fasteners...but not over tighten. Engine should set front up a few degrees from rear...tighten rear in this position, then front.
If you adjust engine by loosening rear mounts, be sure to move gas linkage out of the way...before jacking engine up to adjust position.

BTW...what's the history of this car ? Did it come with four cyl engine and does the other parts look stock (i.e.- cross members/rear end, etc)?

Some, not me, notch the front cross member for clearance of things..like fan belt. I'd rather do it different, as only change belt in a blue moon.

[FrankWest]

Just took this photo of my 1933 model B

[DavidG]

Big difference! And enough of one to install the fan belt. Note in my third photo above that the fan belt is not installed but was done subsequently without raising the front of the engine.

[ceejay]

Thank you everyone for your input !!

From Frank West's photo it is very clear that my engine is too far forward by a fair amount.

The height is fine because the pulley center lines up with the crank handle support thing.

Still not figured out how or why my engine has moved so close to the front cross member.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by ceejay

Thank you everyone for your input !!

From Frank West's photo it is very clear that my engine is too far forward by a fair amount.

The height is fine because the pulley center lines up with the crank handle support thing.

Still not figured out how or why my engine has moved so close to the front cross member.

Hey ceejay,
Does a stock '33 have the 'solid' rear motor mounts, like a model A ?
If solid rear mounts and they are in place as ford made them, logical deduction is that 'something' forward of these mounts....has changed to make your pulley gap different than Franks . That narrows things down to possibly front cross member being changed/different than original...no
Have you looked at the front cross member mounting areas to determine whether different attachment (loose/sloppy/new holes, etc) exist ?