FORD vs FERRARI

[Tinker]

We all (i'm guessing) know this story fairly well about shelby and the Ford gt40.

I'll probably wait for it to come out on netflix or whatever to pick apart, haha.

Looks like a very fun movie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyYgDtY2AMY


.

[frnkeore]

My wife found out about the release yesterday and showed it to me.

I'm from that area and followed the Cobra and GT40 development.

[JSeery]

I've set in an original GT40, does that count for anything? It was an interesting car to set in.

[FlatheadTed]

Shelby ,Awesome Guy awesome car the first ones based loosely on the uro Lola ,the first win in 66 driven by three Kiwis Bruce McClaron and Chris Ammon ,Dennis Holms ,American Muscle


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXuqMt5aDes




,

[rotorwrench]

Carroll was an interesting fellow. He has a leaky heart valve that caused him trouble as a young child but he seemed to grow out of it. During the war, he spent some time here in San Antonio as a flight instructor in the Army Air Force before he was relocated to Colorado so his heart was working OK then. He got into racing some years after the war but he gave it up after his heart started giving him troubles in 1960. A racer that can't race teaches others how to race & develops race cars so that's what he did. He was a Ford man for sure. Ford helped him to develop some neat stuff there in the 60s & early 70s. He went over to Dodge after Iacocca asked him to since the Ford products were done. He helped them with the Viper program and others. He went back with Ford in the mid 2000s and helped develop more Mustang cars and the GT types.

[russcc]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The UT video right after that about how Ford fielded the GT-40 & beat Ferrari at Lemans by "The Henry Ford" was all you really need to know about the subject, with interviews with Mose Nowland, Carroll Shelby, Dan Gurney & AJ Foyt.

[Cecil/WV]

Gonna go see the movie in Gettysburg tomorrow eve.

[37 Coupe]

I am anxious to see the movie but I hope Matt Damon does a better job of portraying Carroll Shelby than what his interviews suggest.The one I saw the other day he stated he was not a car guy and never heard of Carrol Shelby until the script was read. Being about a foot shorter than Shelby and younger looking than Carroll was in the sixties Damon said he pulled it off because Shelby was not known very well.I was a teenager at the time and I damned well knew what he looked like.

[mhsprecher]

We are going to be tough critics. I did hear a positive review on the radio, but not by a car guy. Probably worth going to see regardless. A great story of larger than life characters: Enzo, Henry II, Carroll Shelby, etc.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Shelby ,Awesome Guy awesome car the first ones based loosely on the uro Lola ,the first win in 66 driven by three Kiwis Bruce McClaron and Chris Ammon ,Dennis Holms ,American Muscle


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXuqMt5aDes




,

Chris Ammon was a good friend of my fathers -in fact Dad Introduced him to Sir Jack Brabham when Chris was up and coming . Dad and Chris used to race his Maserati 250F round the paddocks at Bulls 20 mins from were I live . Dad could have brought it for 50 pounds -unfortunately he didn't !

Shelby also prepared the Ford engines that ran in the Sunbeam Tigers at Le Mans They didn't last and the rumour at the time was that as they were competing with the GT40 they were " under prepared " - but who knows

Karl

[texas webb]

Seems like young actors today leave a lot to be desired.

[DavidG]

Saw it this evening and it was worth the time and money spent. As a spectator Ford Division employee at the time (the racing program was a Ford Division responsibility), I noted a number of errors of history, particularly with regard to Ford personnel, and breadcrumb items like the impossibility of seeing the Willow Run plant from WHQ, but it was well edited and the casting seemed excellent (except for the Ford personnel, most of whom I knew, including Mr. Ford).

[1948F-1Pickup]

Shelby used to come to our Club Christmas parties with his wife Cleo....
Matt Damon seems a strange selection for CS, I'm going to venture.
I'll check the movie out tonight.
Wonder what his crew thinks about the movie. I know a few of those guys,
most notably in the production side of the house, including the person who drove the transporter used to deliver the Mustangs to the dealership.

[Dave Castle]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I've set in an original GT40, does that count for anything? It was an interesting car to set in.

It counts as one more post to add to your total !!

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Dave Castle

It counts as one more post to add to your total !!

Funny you should mention that. Does ANYONE have more posts here on the 'Barn than JSeery's 13,105? He makes the rest of us look like "beginners". DD

[flatford8]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Funny you should mention that. Does ANYONE have more posts here on the 'Barn than JSeery's 13,105? He makes the rest of us look like "beginners". DD

Not to derail the thread but...
I was going to mention this at -11K-12K-13K... but it kept getting past me....a lot of accurate, courteous info from this man.... Thank you sir!!.....Mark

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by flatford8

Not to derail the thread but...
I was going to mention this at -11K-12K-13K... but it kept getting past me....a lot of accurate, courteous info from this man.... Thank you sir!!.....Mark

No doubt, J knows some stuff! And he surely doesn't mind sharing it with the folks, either. DD

[JSeery]

It's interesting that the HAMB makes number of post a lot less obvious! Reduces the distraction.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by JSeery

It's interesting that the HAMB makes number of post a lot less obvious! Reduces the distraction.

They made several things less obvious with the big changes some time back. That's why I pouted, and took my football and went home. DD

[rotorwrench]

They could take the numbers off and it wouldn't bother me at all. I don't see it making any difference. When I have some time to waist, this is as good a place as any.

My wife is going to make me see it with her this weekend but she really didn't have to twist my arm much on this one.

[Merc Cruzer]

My wife and I just got back from the movie. We are not regular movie goers. The last one was well over 15 years ago. If you are going, spend the extra money and go to an IMAX theater. We both liked it, and would like to see it again, so when it comes out on DVD we will add it to the collection.

[woodiewagon46]

Just saw it this afternoon and thought it was great. I did catch one error though. It was only for a second or so but of one of the interior shots of the race car at speed, all the gauges were on zero. A bunch of hot rod guys kicking Enzo's ass.

[1948F-1Pickup]

Saw the movie last night (Dolby sound w. curved screen). Pretty good entertainment. Still a stretch viewing Matt Damon as Carroll Shelby. There was some poetic license taken, like being able to see Willow Run from the penthouse of the glasshouse, but all in all a pretty good movie.

[Yoyodyne]

I just saw it in Imax, and yes it was awesome. Matt Damon didn't make you think of Shelby but he played the part well. The anachronisms were fewer than I expected, only real sharp car guys will pick them out.

[Zeke3]

I saw the movie yesterday and enjoyed it very much. I loved the cars in the movie, Cobras and others, including the '63 Country Squire. Very entertaining movie.

[Yoyodyne]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I apologize for the long copy/paste, but I thought I should post this.

FWIW I saw this on FB by Art Garner who wrote Black Noon - the book about the disastrous 1964 Indy 500.


-----------------


I so wanted to like the new Ford v Ferrari movie. Instead I came away incredibly disappointed. Disgusted at times. A few of the racing scenes are good. Others are LOL bad. Remember the movie Driven? That bad. Nothing is as bad, however, as the characterization—make that character assassination—of Ford executive Leo Beebe.
I suppose every good story needs a protagonist and an antagonist. In Ford v Ferrari the protagonists are obvious, Carroll Shelby and Ken Miles. Unlike some, I have no problem with Matt Damon and Christian Bales in those roles. I enjoyed the interaction between the two.
The antagonist is Leo Beebe. At least the character called Leo Beebe. I researched Beebe while writing Black Noon because he took over Ford’s racing program little more than a month before the fateful 1964 Indy 500.
By all accounts he was extremely bright, quiet and unassuming. He could be forceful and demanding. But nothing like the scheming, conniving, yes man portrayed in the movie.
Beebe should be remembered as a hero. He put himself through the University of Michigan in the late 1930s by working on the line at Ford’s Rouge Plant. He was captain of the basketball team as a sophomore. He also played baseball, earned six athletic letters and a Big Ten academic award. He taught high school and coached after graduating, but the bombs soon fell on Pearl Harbor and he joined the Navy.
When the Navy saw he had worked at the Rouge they sent him back to the plant. The Rouge was to become the arsenal of the free world and Beebe was to play an important role. He reported to a young ensign named Henry Ford II.
Beebe had a master’s degree in communications, but proved to be a wizard at logistics. He worked tirelessly, helping to quickly shift plant production from cars to armaments and move them around the world. At the end of the war, Ford hired him to help return the Rouge to automotive production. He then became the company’s Mr. Fixit.
Twice in the years to come he was recalled to government service for his logistical talents, first to lead humanitarian efforts for Hungarian refugees after that country’s failed revolt against communism, and again when Fidel Castro took over in Cuba and refugees flocked to the U.S. When the new Edsel Division flopped, Ford turned to Beebe to shut it down. And Beebe was in Europe trying to resurrect Ford’s brand there when Iacocca asked him to turn around Ford’s floundering racing programs. He had never been to a race. Yes, Beebe worked for Iacocca and Don Frey, not the other way around as the movie implies.
His first race was the 1964 Charlotte 600 where Fireball Roberts was badly burned. A week later he was at Indianapolis when Dave MacDonald and Eddie Sachs were killed. He went to work trying to improve safety and the racing program’s organization. He had nothing to do with Ken Miles not driving at Le Mans that year—Shelby didn’t even run Ford GTs in 1964. Pure fantasy.
As is much of the movie. There are so many inaccuracies it’s easier to identify the parts that are true. Ford did beat Ferrari and Miles did get screwed. The interaction between Miles and his wife and son is good stuff. I hope it’s true.
We’ve been asked to cut the movie makers some slack. It’s a “movie” after all. Okay, so there was no last lap, last turn pass by Miles to win the 1966 24 Hours of Daytona and save Shelby his company. He won by eight laps and that wouldn’t have been very exciting. So what if there was no final record-setting “perfect lap” by Miles at Le Mans. There probably should have been. I’ll let you decide on those cringe-worthy in-car racing shots of Bandini and Hansgen, bug-eyed, hunched over the wheel in seeming terror of racing against Miles, two of my LOL moments.
Yes, it certainly appears it was Beebe who first floated the idea of dead heat at Le Mans in 1966. Some say it was Bruce McLaren, others say it was Henry Ford himself. Unlikely. But almost everyone else, including Shelby, soon bought into the idea. Shelby was probably relieved he didn’t have to make the tough decision himself.
French officials had told Shelby and the Ford execs before the finish the dead heat wasn’t going to work after all. Everyone, including Shelby, decided not to tell the drivers on the track. There were none of the histrionics depicted in the movie. Years later Shelby said it was his fault; he should have stood up more for Miles. But in the aftermath it was Beebe who stood up and took responsibility.
Not a single reviewer I’m aware of has challenged the depiction of Beebe. Most, even automotive and racing reporters, say they never heard of him. A number have referred to him as (horror of horrors), a PR guy! I hope one or two do a little research on the subject because the hatchet job on Beebe is unacceptable and makes the movie, for me, unbearable.

[Dodge]

We are getting a group together to go with. I will try and keep an open mind after knowing Carroll Shelby for over 40yrs. and Ken Miles for an all too short amount of time.

[Tinker]

Yoyodyne I'm going to enjoy the movie as it is (fiction-ish), for fun.

Interesting actual history addition you added. Thank you. Guess I might look at the book also.


.

[philipswanson]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I've set in an original GT40, does that count for anything? It was an interesting car to set in.

sat and sit.

[FlatheadTed]

Here's another clip a team effort ,the change to Goodyear tyres.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhiWRTDZ7-E&t=128s

[Tinker]

from a marketing sense. in a yr or two... or less that video could be aired on a few networks with some little changes or rights fulfillment.

[koates]

I just saw the movie today and thought it was great. Nitpicking on the finer points of this racing history are a waste of time and only serve to display some egos of so called experts. Go see the movie and enjoy it. The main point was that FORD WON. Regards, Kevin.

[Tinker]

I am trying to remove myself from the post, not doing a very good job. I don't think it's ego just fact - ish or film -ish. But anyway, the only reason I posted this is because we car heads don't get a movie that's mainstream. All opinions welcome, i'm tappin' out.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by philipswanson

sat and sit.

English is not my strong suite! Even if it is my one and only language!!! It really was a cool experience, we had all the time we wanted to mess around with the GT-40 (short of starting it). The interiors are very interesting, starting with the RH drive with very deep seats and the gearshift on the left hand.

[rotorwrench]

Few movies ever tell the exact story of a historic nature. They are all based on dramatic arts and therefore are basically just for entertainment value. It's sad when they choose a villain or antagonist that wasn't so in real life but most movie goers will never know the difference. You can always blame the "Whiz Kids" but it always goes back to the head man in charge as a general rule. They have the most skin in the game. Some keep a real close eye on what's going on with their company like Henry Ford did. Others sort of let others keep an eye on things like Henry Ford II did. He's the one that was trying to get even with Enzo Ferrari when he wouldn't sell out to Ford Motor Company over a racing team dispute.

[Hal Beatty]

It's a movie... entertainment; not a documentary and well worth the money IMHO.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Hal Beatty

It's a movie... entertainment; not a documentary and well worth the money IMHO.

Here Here! Well said!

[frnkeore]

I'm going to see it tonight. I too, have trouble, picturing Matt Damon as Carol.

I followed this, closely as it unfolded and remember when I first heard of Ken Miles death at Riverside.

This part of Ford's racing, as well as Ford's entry into Indy car and F1, is what caused me to take the leap, into Formula Car racing.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by koates

I just saw the movie today and thought it was great. Nitpicking on the finer points of this racing history are a waste of time and only serve to display some egos of so called experts. Go see the movie and enjoy it. The main point was that FORD WON. Regards, Kevin.

It's not "nitpicking on the finer points of this racing history"! If the movie is not accurate, it is not history! Yet it's advertised as being history. Therefore it should be as accurate as possible. The problem is that the public, by and large, accepts movies such as this one as being factual and thus have a skewed view of what really happened.

[DavidG]

Read the fine print; this movie is based on a book not authorized by Ford, which while I have not read it, undoubtedly takes artistic license left right and center as do many authors when writing historical novels. The history in this case if followed line by line would bore movie goers to tears. All of the Company people are pretty much misrepresented (I was there), especially Mr. Ford and Leo Beebe, but that's the tension that the screenwriters used to create "their" story, not "the" story that actually transpired. Note that the Company did not endorse this movie as being historically accurate or in any other way. As was said above, it is not a documentary film, but a Hollywood effort to make a film with broad appeal without being burdened to sticking with the facts at every turn. As was also noted repeatedly above, after all the tumult and shouting, the end is dead nuts accurate to history.

[AKCJ]

Saw the movie last night in imax. I was prepared for it to not be historically or technically accurate so for me it was great. Worth watching just to see all the cool cars.

[deuce_roadster]

I haven't seen the movie yet but I do plan to see the IMAX version. To all the nit pickers that claim to have found some "error" to prove how much they know...GET OVER IT--ITS A MOVIE.

[mhsprecher]

No one is perfect, but it's too bad Beebe and HFII were not represented accurately.



I only know of Beebe from what is written here and he has a good story. HFII was also far from perfect, but he saved his grandfather's company. He had a lot of help, but so did HFI. No one is a magician and master of all trades. Many people have great ideas and the drive to make them happen, but there is almost always a large supporting cast.

[frnkeore]

My wife took me to see it, last night, for my 75th Bday.

Overall, I liked the movie but, the driving scenes, are down right "Hokey"!!

Examples:
1. Ken passing on the outside, in the dirt, on Willow springs straightaway. I've raced there, many times and that maneuver, would have at least spun him but, more likely, sent him rolling, into the pits. He would have been driving on sand, with LOTS of rocks.

2. Looking at the other drivers, while doing 200+ MPH. You Do Not look at other drivers, when your racing!!!! You only use peripheral vision, even at 80 mph or less.

3. You don't put your brakes on, when cornering, especially at high speed, you trail brake, going into a corner, nothing after that nor, shift at 200+ and take off, like a rocket.

4. Even then, they wore seat belts and were strapped in at pit stops!


I don't really think they did much testing of the GT40 at Willow, the front straight is fairly short and the back straight, too. I believe most, if not all the testing was at Riverside Raceway, on the "long" track (there were 3 configurations), configuration. It's the only road track, that has a long enough straight, to let the GT40, unwind. They couldn't have used OMS (Ontario Motor Speedway), as it wasn't built, until 1968.

I was impressed with Matt Damons role (didn't think I would be), His stature leaves a lot to be desired but, a lot of shots were from lower levels, looking up, to make him seem taller. I didn't know Carol or Ken but, saw many interviews of Carol and a couple, with Ken. In those days, I lived and breathed road racing, especially, anything involving Ford.

They didn't try to show Kens death, in the "J" car, nor it happening on the Riverside, straightaway. They could have mocked up a car to look like it. Although the J car was good in the wind tunnel, the J car had aero problems, right from the start on the track and they changed the body work, to what would become the MK IV, to cure it.

Between '73 and '79, I raced at Willow Springs, Riverside and OMS so, I know the tracks well. My first SCCA drivers school was at Willow, in '73.

I know nothing about the exec's, they portrayed Iocca well but, if Bebee wasn't like that, it was a injustice to him and his family.

This is the "J" car.

[Ford46]

All in all, a very enjoyable movie. My wife even enjoyed it, at 2 1/2 hours in length she thought it would be a tough view, but was pleasantly surprised. Being a movie I knew there would be some "artistic license taken" over all I thought it told the basic story in a very entertaining way.

[felix 40]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

I haven't seen the movie yet but I do plan to see the IMAX version. To all the nit pickers that claim to have found some "error" to prove how much they know...GET OVER IT--ITS A MOVIE.

I saw it last Friday and loved it.. I’m with deuce roadster.. enjoy it! It’s just a movie.

[srg]

Henry Ford II- "What did he say about me"? (asking about Enzio's conversation); Iaccoca- "He said your fat sir".

[mhsprecher]

I just saw the movie and loved it. I thought that Damon and Bale were terrific. Of course it had to be the suits vs. the racers and maybe it was that way. Anyone who has worked in a corporation knows how the politics are and Ford was as political as any corporation.

I thought they portrayed HFII as a bit of a buffoon. Iacocca's presentation seemed a bit mild and Beebe the bad guy. As was stated earlier, if his character was misrepresented, that is too bad.

[Tinker]

HF2 has always been an scapegoat as well as Edsel. HF1 made his bones racing, not sure he would have created the program. He thought the T was all you ever needed.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by koates

I just saw the movie today and thought it was great. Nitpicking on the finer points of this racing history are a waste of time and only serve to display some egos of so called experts. Go see the movie and enjoy it. The main point was that FORD WON. Regards, Kevin.

Well, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and I suppose racing men do have large egos, but damn, man, I'm impressed with the ego of someone with the balls to call out this group as being "so called experts".

[Tinker]

Well HF2 was a union breaker...

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Well HF2 was a union breaker...

Why wouldn't he be? Unions would not be in his interest.

[petehoovie]

Good Read Here > "The Real Story Behind Ford v Ferrari" by Henry Payne - The Detroit News > https://www.detroitnews.com/story/op...ri/2567859001/

[ford38v8]

Took the Mrs to the show today. Wanted to see Ford/Ferrari, but also wanted to see Irishman. Wife opted for Irishman, and we were sorry. Constant cliche mob-speak gets old pretty fast. I'll go see Ford/Ferrari with my son.

[Dodge]

We went and saw it tonight with my Wife, Brother and Sister in-law.
Kept an open mind about Matt Damon and was not disappointed.
It was after all not a story about Shelby, but one about Ford v.s. Ferrari.
There is always something you can pick apart about a movie that's trying to tell a story.
You have the story, the writers, the director and the prop department that aren't always
car people. Yes there were a several things you could pick apart but 90% of the people
seeing it won't notice.
It was a good time....

[TomT/Williamsburg]

If the movie taught me one thing it’s that Ken Miles was one hellova driver/fabricator ....

[Topher5150]

Netflix is running its own documentary about Shelby America
https://www.netflix.com/title/81218074

[rotorwrench]

Yep! I think its on Amazon prime too. The 24 Hour War was a documentary release in 2016 and it is THE companion piece to watch after you see the movie. It has the whole scoop from Enzo Ferrari to Ford Motors. It even has a shot of the old Ford 999 car from 1902. It has all the drivers that are still around plus Ferrari people, Ford family members & people, and Shelby American people. It explains a lot that the movie doesn't . Philip Remington and Ken Miles had a lot to do with the success of the GT series. I don't think they could have found better tuners of race cars than those two. Ken got killed when the experimental honeycomb panel car actually broke up at around 180 mph at Riverside. He was still experimenting right up to the end.

This documentary explains a good bit about the relationship between owners and drivers. It also gives more of a sense of the teamwork it took on both sides to win these grueling races. Ken Miles was definitely a team player but he liked to win too. I'm sure if his spirit is still around somewheres that he knows most folks agree that he won that triple crown in 1966. I'm sure that Mclaren and Amon knew he did too. That's racing though and Ken wanted to keep that job with Ford more than win the race or he wouldn't have slowed down that much. I imagine his car was pretty well spent though since he was the rabbit in the team. Bruce Mclaren's Karma caught up with him in 1970 much as it did with Ken Miles. It is a dangerous sport.

In my business the old adage fits too. There are old pilots and bold pilots but there aren't too many old bold pilots.

[hook00pad]

So true Rotorwrench!

Old Bold Pilots makes me think of Chuck Yeager, test pilot, and the "Right Stuff" story. Isn't Yeager still alive?

Al Hook

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by hook00pad

Isn't Yeager still alive?

Yup, Chuck is alive and well. Below is a pic of Yeager standing beside his "airport-car" (EVERY pilot has an airport-car) Model 'A' at Edwards in 1950. DD

[rotorwrench]

In Chuck's book, he mentioned that the old model A was a car that was passed from one pilot to another there at Edwards in that era. Chuck passed it on too but he also mentioned that one of the next owners didn't. He kind of wished he'd kept it after that. That's the first photo I've seen of it. Thanks for passing that one on.