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Old 06-04-2017, 10:11 AM   #301
38 coupe
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Default Re: New block

I'm impressed with your no-nonsense approach to this project. I'm curious about how much new parts will go into a typical hot rod flathead when your new block is offered. Since new rotating assemblies are easily sourced now, new valve train is common, new water pumps, new heads, new intakes, and new headers are also typical. What is left to take from an original Flathead? The timing cover, oil pump idler and cover, oil pan, and ???. With your block it looks like pretty much all wear items are going to be offered new. Impressive.
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:19 AM   #302
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Default Re: New block

Believe the other items you listed are available aftermarket as well if you wanted them.
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:40 AM   #303
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Default Re: New block

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I'm impressed with your no-nonsense approach to this project. I'm curious about how much new parts will go into a typical hot rod flathead when your new block is offered. Since new rotating assemblies are easily sourced now, new valve train is common, new water pumps, new heads, new intakes, and new headers are also typical. What is left to take from an original Flathead? The timing cover, oil pump idler and cover, oil pan, and ???. With your block it looks like pretty much all wear items are going to be offered new. Impressive.
I honestly think that a person wanting a stock look to their Flathead could easily utilize nearly all the exterior parts.

If built in a certain way I think this block could also be outfitted to look very much like the earlier Flathead versions.

It's quite an exciting prospect and I truly believe this project will surprise people at how well received it is within the Flathead community and also to the casual fan.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:42 AM   #304
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Default Re: New block

I look at this as a replacement for the original from 1932 through 1953 engines. Should a person who wanted to rebuild his present 1938 through 1953 engine and found his original lock to be NG. He would be able to us ALL his original parts. For those that want to replace their 32/38 21 stud block they could use everything except the crank assy.
Also, if the cylinders can be bored to 3 3/8, their displacement will rise to 268 CI and the Cr to 8:1 with only a piston swap giving a nice increase in torque and better fuel economy.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:40 AM   #305
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Default Re: New block

I was under the weather Sunday and most of Monday so I didn't get much done by way of design/model work.

I have to say that I am with Ron on the bore sizing. Given the restrictions of the block design I believe that 3 3/8 will be the comfortable maximum on this. With my intake ports, I doubt more than polishing will be necessary.

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Old 06-06-2017, 08:18 AM   #306
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I was under the weather Sunday and most of Monday so I didn't get much done by way of design/model work.

I have to say that I am with Ron on the bore sizing. Given the restrictions of the block design I believe that 3 3/8 will be the comfortable maximum on this. With my intake ports, I doubt more than polishing will be necessary.

Tod
Well Tod don't push yourself too hard. People on a mission often do. Get back on your feet and feel better.

As far as 3 3/8" bores go that would be a Godsend as will the prospect of minimal necessary port work.

Wow honestly a new block could really touch a new wave of enthusiasts interested in Flathead Ford power.

The engine block itself has become the only major ingredient in an early Ford build that is in short supply.

I can truly imagine the possibility of a very nice and well thought out "crate" engine coming out of the existence of a new, high quality and repeatible engine block.

Very exciting when I play this out in my head.
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:19 AM   #307
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Default Re: New block

I like the idea of a 268" stock stroke setup. Maybe it'll increase the demand for stock 8BA crankshafts!
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:12 PM   #308
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I like the idea of a 268" stock stroke setup. Maybe it'll increase the demand for stock 8BA crankshafts!
I'd be a rich man if that's the case!
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:06 PM   #309
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For a rebuild, it would be a logical move. All you'd need is just a set of pistons. Now all we have to do is have Egge make up a set of 3 3/;8 x 3 4/4 pistons with Metric rings
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:07 PM   #310
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To put this in perspective guys a standard Ford 3 3/4" crank would be a 1/4" stroker crank in either a 351 Ford or a 350 Chevy if it would fit.

There is a reason why Flathead Fords give a pleasant push. They got plenty of arm even in stock form.
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Old 06-06-2017, 07:45 PM   #311
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Default Re: New block

Come on Tod . . . give us enough bore thickness to go to a 3.5" bore . . . I want the extra cubes! You can do it - just give me about a .150 wall thickness at that size.

Even if I have to offset the bore a bit (due to the center exhaust ports) . . . I'm happy to go .060 off of center.

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Old 06-07-2017, 08:55 AM   #312
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Default Re: New block

I wouldn't be surprised if 308 CID engines have been fabricated using sleeves but I would wonder how well the heads would seal. You can only push that block so far before it would need a redesign for reliability in larger bore configurations. 286 CID ain't bad and 295 with a bumped out stroke is possible. I just don't know how many folks would want to change it that much just for a few more cubic inches.

Folks like me would just be glad to have a stocker available.
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:00 AM   #313
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Default Re: New block

I just got caught up on this thread. The idea is great but there's a reason guys with pretty deep pockets have tried and realized the $'s don't make sense. I'm not understanding the economics. I'm an old Toolmaker Machinist and enjoy building machining assembling engines as much as any & have heard the $ #'s we're talking. After doing the research several years ago & after understanding of how hard it is to find a good block as said in this thread I went to Jerry Livingston at United Eengines, http://www.unitedengine.biz/united_004.htm , as you can see he offers a '49 to '53 for under $2300 assembled with all internals and earlier config's for under $2700 less bolt ons. He's one of the good ones and reasonable but their are others. Back to economics, while I enjoy the build I could buy another from Jerry and disassemble it and reassemble it ( not that anyone would, lol ) & realistically be at least a couple $Grand ahead of paying $2400 for a bear block that still needs finish matching pushing it to $3400 before any internals are bought or assembled?
Like I said, Tod I love the idea & maybe a few guys looking for a more versatile block for performance would be in I think I until guys / co.'s and available flatty blocks are gone your pricing at this time would need to be approx $1000 to compete with these guys putting out stock flatty assembled with internals for $2300 to $2700. JMO?
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:05 AM   #314
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Default Re: New block

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I wouldn't be surprised if 308 CID engines have been fabricated using sleeves but I would wonder how well the heads would seal. You can only push that block so far before it would need a redesign for reliability in larger bore configurations. 286 CID ain't bad and 295 with a bumped out stroke is possible. I just don't know how many folks would want to change it that much just for a few more cubic inches.

Folks like me would just be glad to have a stocker available.
If you want 308 cubes, just drop in a Hudson Hornet Twin-H! (Now I've got myself wondering if this was ever done!)
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:48 AM   #315
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If you want 308 cubes, just drop in a Hudson Hornet Twin-H! (Now I've got myself wondering if this was ever done!)
Doesn't Tardell build 304's for some of his customers?
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:01 PM   #316
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Default Re: New block

It is not hard to get to 304 cubes . . . or larger, it is a matter of how long of stroke are you going to run. An issue that comes into play is the length of the piston skirt and pin location (getting into the rings). I'd prefer to have a larger bore (with plenty of wall thickness). But - with a 3 3/8 bore and 4.250 stroke, you'd be at 304 cubes . . . and this new block will have more cylinder wall thickness (I hope).

When you bore a standard Ford block to 3 3/8s, you end up with a cylinder wall thickness of approximately .100 or so (depending on core shift, rust, etc). I would really prefer a thickness at a 3.375 bore that is closer to .200 . . . and maybe a 3.500" bore that is close to .150 (I know, the math says it would be .1375 or so). I'll take all I can get!
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Old 06-07-2017, 01:40 PM   #317
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Default Re: New block

I'm no expert, but my impression of what United Engine Specialists is providing are "remanufactured" flathead V8's. They are not providing brand new blocks to build their engines. So this is an apple to oranges comparison. Keep going Tod, we need you!
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:19 PM   #318
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Default Re: New block

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I just got caught up on this thread. The idea is great but there's a reason guys with pretty deep pockets have tried and realized the $'s don't make sense. I'm not understanding the economics. I'm an old Toolmaker Machinist and enjoy building machining assembling engines as much as any & have heard the $ #'s we're talking. After doing the research several years ago & after understanding of how hard it is to find a good block as said in this thread I went to Jerry Livingston at United Eengines, http://www.unitedengine.biz/united_004.htm , as you can see he offers a '49 to '53 for under $2300 assembled with all internals and earlier config's for under $2700 less bolt ons. He's one of the good ones and reasonable but their are others. Back to economics, while I enjoy the build I could buy another from Jerry and disassemble it and reassemble it ( not that anyone would, lol ) & realistically be at least a couple $Grand ahead of paying $2400 for a bear block that still needs finish matching pushing it to $3400 before any internals are bought or assembled?
Like I said, Tod I love the idea & maybe a few guys looking for a more versatile block for performance would be in I think I until guys / co.'s and available flatty blocks are gone your pricing at this time would need to be approx $1000 to compete with these guys putting out stock flatty assembled with internals for $2300 to $2700. JMO?
Not trying to knock this rebuilder, but I would imagine that crack free cores are scarce, even in Kansas. Therefore, it could be that some of these engines are sleeved, have cracks that have been repaired by various methods, severe rust corrosion in water jackets (with the potential for a pinhole to appear in a cylinder wall), or other maladies common to 65+ year old cores. This is the real world, no reflection on the rebuilder.
That is certainly a good price, especially if it comes with a good warranty, and seems ideal for the car flipper who can say "it even has a rebuilt engine", and for the low buck enthusiast who just wants it to run without smoking, leaking and knocking.
On the other hand, a lot of us would be happy to spend the bucks for a brand new casting that we know hasn't been overheated, abandoned in a gravel pit for decades, or otherwise abused, and didn't have to scour the countryside to find. One that we can put our personal touch on, whether mild or wild. One we can run hard without worrying about a valve seat popping out or a crack opening up, or blowing a head gasket because the deck was cut once too often.
As far as "understanding the economics", if we're worried about that, sell the flathead and buy a Prius! This a hobby, after all. One that makes more sense than hoarding stamps or baseball cards!
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:52 PM   #319
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Default Re: New block

Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, just talking real world. I wish Tod all the good wishes and good will possible. Go for it.
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:14 PM   #320
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Default Re: New block

Most rebuilders want a rebuildable core engine in exchange or they charge an additional core price. Good blocks don't grow on trees and why should they be the ones going out there scouring the country for them. I can't see selling them outright for that kind of price for any long length of time in this day and age. If they do they're selling themselves short unless they've been sitting on them a long time. The model A short blocks are going for those prices if they rebuild yours. Long blocks are over $3000. The V8 has twice as many rod bearings, valve assemblies, pistons, and ring packs plus twice as much cylinder and valve work.

All a DIY guy like me suffers is the machine shop work and a lot of that could be saved with a fresh block if prepped even close to being ready to go.
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