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Old 12-06-2014, 09:53 AM   #141
FrankWest
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by jim galli View Post
Too painful for me. I'll check back in a month to see where we're at.

When I was a kid I watched my grandad spend most of an afternoon cleaning battery posts. Something I could have accomplished in minutes, and I thought to myself, what could this man possibly do at work. He was Kelly Johnson's radar lead on the SR71...
Got the timing gear inspection door down, Timing gear does NOT move when I hand crank the engine!

Half the gear looks ok not chewed up!
Tried to move timing gear...seems attached with slight play approc 2 degrees either rotation direction.

Last edited by FrankWest; 12-06-2014 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:18 AM   #142
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

It sounds like the sheared teeth on the timing gear are next to the mating gear on the crankshaft itself, which of course makes perfect sense, i.e. no teeth, no engagement of the timing gear.

At this point I recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing, adding one more thing to your "to do" list associated with replacing the timing gear. The next step is to remove the front timing gear cover in order to access the entire timing gear to permit its replacement. (The other next step is to buy a new timing gear. They are same as that used on Model As and are readily available from Model A part suppliers. Originally they came in two sizes, standard and +.004 oversize to compensate for wear on the steel gear on the crankshaft.) I have no idea about the quality of today's replacements as I use NOS or NORS timing gears, but you should pose that question on the Model A portion of the "Barn".

While you're shopping for a new timing gear, look also for the special wrench or socket for a wrench for the very large special nut on the front of the timing gear where it is attached to the camshaft. Hopefully you'll have to do this job once, but the right tool for this job makes it easy and anything else either doesn't work or screws up the special nut to the point where it needs to be replaced.

Lastly, when you remove the front timing gear cover be aware that there is a spring-loaded camshaft thrust plunger (Ford's nomenclature) which may or may not need replacement, but either way it must be re-assembled in the front cover when you re-attach the cover to the cylinder block.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:18 AM   #143
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

thanks

Last edited by FrankWest; 12-06-2014 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:45 AM   #144
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

It is highly unlikely that a lot of the teeth have been sheared. It only takes a few to cause disengagement. It is highly likely that you have now solved the mystery of why your engine would not restart.

Last edited by DavidG; 12-06-2014 at 11:47 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-06-2014, 02:12 PM   #145
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

DavidG....This makes perfect sense to me. I want to tell you...the suspense was killing me .

Frank...good luck in replacing the timing gear. I replaced mine with the help of a Model A guy. Was very straight-forward. I had to purchase the special tool to remove the nut also. If you are located near me...I would be happy to loan it to you. Good luck...I'm pullin' for you! Pat
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Old 12-06-2014, 08:13 PM   #146
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by DavidG View Post
It sounds like the sheared teeth on the timing gear are next to the mating gear on the crankshaft itself, which of course makes perfect sense, i.e. no teeth, no engagement of the timing gear.

At this point I recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing, adding one more thing to your "to do" list associated with replacing the timing gear. The next step is to remove the front timing gear cover in order to access the entire timing gear to permit its replacement. (The other next step is to buy a new timing gear. They are same as that used on Model As and are readily available from Model A part suppliers. Originally they came in two sizes, standard and +.004 oversize to compensate for wear on the steel gear on the crankshaft.) I have no idea about the quality of today's replacements as I use NOS or NORS timing gears, but you should pose that question on the Model A portion of the "Barn".

While you're shopping for a new timing gear, look also for the special wrench or socket for a wrench for the very large special nut on the front of the timing gear where it is attached to the camshaft. Hopefully you'll have to do this job once, but the right tool for this job makes it easy and anything else either doesn't work or screws up the special nut to the point where it needs to be replaced.

Lastly, when you remove the front timing gear cover be aware that there is a spring-loaded camshaft thrust plunger (Ford's nomenclature) which may or may not need replacement, but either way it must be re-assembled in the front cover when you re-attach the cover to the cylinder block.
David,

You lost me on one thing. You said that you "recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing". Since the crankshaft turns free relative to the camshaft hasn't all timing already been lost? I would add for Frank to be sure to line up the mark on the timing gear with the mark on the crankshaft gear when reassembling.

Charlie Stephens

Last edited by Charlie Stephens; 12-06-2014 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 12-06-2014, 09:48 PM   #147
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

That means......if you haven't bent any valves so far, don't tempt fate by moving the cam at this late date. DD
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Old 12-06-2014, 10:27 PM   #148
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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That means......if you haven't bent any valves so far, don't tempt fate by moving the cam at this late date. DD
You lost me, how would moving the cam bend a valve? Are you thinking of some of the late model engines that have the pistons hit the valves when the timing belt breaks?

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Old 12-06-2014, 11:36 PM   #149
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Charlie,

I'm just trying to take Frank through it one step at a time. Trying to turn the timing gear as he indicated he attempted is completely non-productive, i.e. a waste of time. Of course he will eventually have to align the marks on the two gears and yes, they probably are out of alignment already. Further, you're right, bending a valve is not a risk. But this project needs to focus on the essential steps to completion without further detours.
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Old 12-07-2014, 12:13 AM   #150
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Charlie,

I'm just trying to take Frank through it one step at a time. Trying to turn the timing gear as he indicated he attempted is completely non-productive, i.e. a waste of time. Of course he will eventually have to align the marks on the two gears and yes, they probably are out of alignment already. Further, you're right, bending a valve is not a risk. But this project needs to focus on the essential steps to completion without further detours.
David,

I agree that trying to turn the gear is non productive. I was afraid he would take you literally and spend too much time trying to not turn the cam (even a couple of degrees) as he removed the nut.

Charlie Stephens

Last edited by Charlie Stephens; 12-07-2014 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:09 AM   #151
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I'd recommend turning the cam. I know you can't with the gear as it is, but there must be a reason why the gear stripped it's teeth. There may be a sticking valve or some other reason that may have caused an extra load on the cam and stripped the gear teeth. If you can turn the cam by hand you can first of all see if it stops before making a complete turn, but also check that the turning force to open all valves is more or less equal.
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:15 AM   #152
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The dist should pull one if no rust, my guess the pin on bottom of dist may have sheared. Remove what ever keeps it from turning. Look at other engine..
Its best to remove the dist and oil and set points, then check for binding shaft stuck and if you are lucky the pin has sheared on drive slot bottom of dist.
I would do the simple things first.
The has been story's of people taking the dist out and will never run again then you will have to junk it. LOL
You have had people work on your cars for years and you should have learned these basics years ago.
You would be better to go to the model A section.
If the dist was locked and the shaft froze it would most likely shear the pin on the drive slot in the bottom of dist.
I,m not blowing smoke up your asxx.
Post 97
that's the wrong end the female end is in dist.
I don't know or ever heard of a dist puller.
If you are in a warm area like ca or fl you could use a pipe wrench to twist the dist out by now. Only you know what you have and ford made thing easy to fix not like today mass air senses were a bug would stop the car cold.
The dist can only go in one way so don,t take the joke to heart.
To add to this if you turm the engine over once the gear should be at 90degs.
You can,t see broken teeth then my guess its THE KEY WAY ON CRANKSHAFT IS BROKEN. THIS COULD BE CAUSED BY DIST FROZE UP
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Old 12-07-2014, 08:04 AM   #153
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Mart,

Again, one step at a time. It's worth turning the cam to make sure everything that runs off it is up to snuff, but not until the timing gear has been removed when turning the cam is then a straightforward process.

Let's all wait until Frank has removed the front timing gear cover and tells us what he has found. I suspect that the odds of a sheared woodruff key on the crankshaft are extremely high; possible, but not probable.

Last edited by DavidG; 12-07-2014 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:59 AM   #154
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I took off all the bolts from the timing cover but have a problem. Not sure if there is still one screw under the engine support bracket which is disconnected bu cannot be removed because the timing cover has two ledges cast in the timing cover that actually overhand the support bracket. Strange, but my spare model B engine does NOT have these overhangs? I looked in all my books Model A and 1933 ford for disassemble instructions but can't find anything.
see diagram
Purple are the bracket and screws I removed

There is enough play in the bracket that if all they screws were removed I think the cover could be slid off.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:01 AM   #155
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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You lost me, how would moving the cam bend a valve? Are you thinking of some of the late model engines that have the pistons hit the valves when the timing belt breaks?

Charlie Stephens
Charlie.....I'm sorry, and you're right! I did kinda lose my head there for a moment......I've since re-gained my composure. DD
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:07 AM   #156
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Here is a picture of the ledges on the Timing cover.
Also It looks like the timing cover sis attached to the four oil pan bolts...
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File Type: jpg ledges.jpg (43.9 KB, 32 views)
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:53 AM   #157
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Here are the screws I have removed...
The timing cover is still hard to remove.
Hit with a rubber hammer a few times......?
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File Type: jpg Copy of ledges.jpg (44.1 KB, 19 views)

Last edited by FrankWest; 12-07-2014 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 12-07-2014, 11:16 AM   #158
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Maybe this helps...
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File Type: jpg Capture1.JPG (17.9 KB, 36 views)
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:13 PM   #159
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

There is ONE last bolt marked in blue...
That I can't get at because of the engine mount bracket with is loose but trapped between the ledges on the timing cover and main pulley.....
Strange that there seems no procedure to remove the timing cover in the ford bullitins of repair books, unless I just overlooked them?
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Old 12-07-2014, 02:55 PM   #160
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

You probably cannot remove the timing gear cover without at least loosening the two special bolts that attachment the front motor mount bracket to the front cross member. It is probably best to remove that bracket altogether as it will only get in the way of your replacing the timing gear (should it prove to have some sheared teeth).

Those ledges that you refer to are characteristic of all '32 and '33-'34 four-cylinder timing gear covers (those two types are different and are not interchangeable).
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