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Old 12-08-2014, 08:39 AM   #181
FrankWest
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by DavidG View Post
Frank,

If you cut off those ledges you've lost me. They are there for the best of reasons and that is to take the shear load off the two bolts that hold the bracket to the timing gear cover. Think of the pounding that those two bolts would take without the ledges; before long they would beat their threads (steel against cast iron) into ovals.

As you said, if you cut your motor mount bracket to retrieve the timing gear cover you still would have to move the pulley forward to attach a replacement bracket. (If you can't remove it for lack of clearance, you cannot replace it for the same reason.)

There were three different timing gear covers used on 1928-34 four cylinder engines and only the one designed for use in '33-'34 chassis will work in yours. The other two were designed for use in chassis with vertical radiators and crankshaft pulleys nearly an inch longer than yours. Which in turn means that the generator pulleys were nearly an inch further forward. Since the generators attach to the timing gear covers and the generator mounting brackets are all basically the same in terms of dimensions, you have to have the unique-to-'33/'34 timing cover or else your fan belt won't line up with all three (water pump, generator, and crankshaft) pulleys.

I suggest you take a real close look at that other timing gear cover you have and see if the boss for mounting the generator is in exactly the same position front to back as that on your car's timing gear cover.

Ford did not produce any vehicles in North America during either the 1935 model or calendar years that were powered by four-cylinder engines. Ford did continue to produce the engines in the U.S. into the early 1940s, but only for service replacements and for use as industrial engines. I'm curious as to why you think that your spare engine is a '35. A couple of photos of the timing gear cover of that engine would be very educational as well.

Ford did release a two-piece crankshaft pulley for service which is much easier to remove, but not for '33-'34 fours, just for the Model As and '32s. That's unfortunate in this instance.

I doubt if the motive for what you've encountered is money as it was not cheap to tool up for a new timing gear cover, crankshaft pulley, and water pump to accommodate the slanted radiator of the '33-'34s. Whatever the reason, it's engineering at its worst.

You're right about the original assembly sequence; the crank pulley had/has to be added last, which I learned the hard way.
The serial Number on my spare engine is B5334891 32
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:42 AM   #182
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Again, I appreciate everyone;s help.
I am in a holding mode until a solution turns up.
I am in no hurry.... I don;t want to ruin anything.
Here is a list of possible solutions...Some are silly but I am trying to brainstorm

fix considerations
1) Try to remove crank pulley
a) Can they usually be removed after 80 years? Or are pins and bolts frozen.
If break then can I obtain replacement.
What if damage shaft....will I have to replace crank shaft?

2) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Can it be installed? If I can't remove existing one from between ledges on timing cover, Crank pulley, engine oil pan lip...Then how can I insert new bracket in place?

3) with Hack saw Cut off ledgers on Timing cover.
Still have problem, Can bracket fit past
Timing cover dimple for timing gear end bearing "protrudes approx 1 inch Why??? Perhaps can file down approx 1/4 in or so to allow bracket to slide through.

4) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Replace old timing cover with newer one without ledges that Ford produced in 1935. Will this newer Timing cover work on the older 1933 engine???

5) and best just thought of it.
A shallow socket wrench with tapered neck may fit under bracket to undo the last bolt

Last edited by FrankWest; 12-08-2014 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:24 AM   #183
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, Any possibility of you posting a picture of your spare engine? Would like to see the front especially. Thanks, Pat
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:45 AM   #184
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

Forget # 2 and 3 for the reasons previously stated. In #3, that dimple you refer to captures the spring for the camshaft thrust plunger. If you file a 1/4" off it you will likely ruin the cover. Likely 4 won't work as your ledge-less timing gear cover is probably not the unique '33-'34 version of the timing gear cover as stated above. But if by chance it is a revised version of the '33-'34 then this is a viable alternative. In one of my recent posts I indicated how to identify the '33'34 version based on the location of the boss for mounting the generator.

I have a good used '33-'34 crank pulley in case you break yours in the process of removing it. It will come off the end of crankshaft without damaging the crankshaft as there normally is oil in the immediate vicinity and corrosion is not normally an issue. There are no pins or bolts involved except the big one on the end of the crankshaft as described above. The pulley slides on the end of the crankshaft and a notch at the back end of the pulley engages a Woodruff key that is inserted into a slot in the crankshaft. It is held in place by the big bolt that doubles as the engagement point for the hand crank. Once that bolt is removed all that is holding the pulley in place is friction. But there's plenty of it hence the need for a puller in 99 out of 100 instances. Most of that friction comes from the oil seals in the timing gear cover and oil pan as mentioned above.

I also have a spare front motor mount bracket, but if you stick with #1 you won't need it.

If this were my car I would remove the grille and radiator to gain unfettered access to the front of the engine which would then make using a puller on the pulley relatively easy.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:55 AM   #185
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank I guess you have the radiator out and can see if there are holes 2 or 3 for bolts for a puller so not to damage it the pulley.
While thinking drop the pan.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:34 AM   #186
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,
We can all identify with the frustration you are feeling. We have all been there.
Don't give up on asking advise from the knowledgeable folks on this forum.
To those of you pitching in to get Frank through this process, Thanks for living "The Golden Rule".
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:55 PM   #187
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think you are at the point were the grill needs to come of to work on the cam gear ,you could also jack the motor up about a 1" at the front the rubber rear mounts will flex a little ,you could then slide out the front mount ,Ted
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:56 PM   #188
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I was thinking also that if it were me I would have the grille and the radiator out of the way. This is quite a job, and needs approaching with care. Being able to do the job from the front will be easier than doing it from either side.

On reflection, having said that, I think that if I were doing it I wouldn't remove the grille and rad unless it was absolutely necessary.

Here's me thinking it through:
Slacken crank bolt. Just a couple of turns.
Using a great deal of care, move the crank pulley forward just enough to release the engine mount.
Remove front cover.
Remove cam gear (never had a 4. Is it difficult?).
Rotate cam to make sure all is free.
Align cam and crank and fit new gear (Is an improved version available)
Refit cover.
Refit engine mounts.

Job done.

It ought to be relatively simple, removing the grille and radiator (and probably the hood) and then refitting with all the alignment issues is probably not worth the extra work, as I said, unless absolutely necessary.

Mart.
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:42 PM   #189
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Frank,

The starter motor electrical circuit is not routed through the ammeter so that telltale is not indicative of an electrical problem per se. Check for spark next.
David, it is a good indicator there is something wrong in the electrical. The ammeter will pulsate when cranking the car because of the points. As the points touch, they ground which will show a discharge for a split second. When they break, it will show a neutral or 0 electrical movement.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:05 PM   #190
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankWest View Post
Again, I appreciate everyone;s help.
I am in a holding mode until a solution turns up.
I am in no hurry.... I don;t want to ruin anything.
Here is a list of possible solutions...Some are silly but I am trying to brainstorm

fix considerations
1) Try to remove crank pulley
a) Can they usually be removed after 80 years? Or are pins and bolts frozen.
If break then can I obtain replacement.
What if damage shaft....will I have to replace crank shaft?

2) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Can it be installed? If I can't remove existing one from between ledges on timing cover, Crank pulley, engine oil pan lip...Then how can I insert new bracket in place?

3) with Hack saw Cut off ledgers on Timing cover.
Still have problem, Can bracket fit past
Timing cover dimple for timing gear end bearing "protrudes approx 1 inch Why??? Perhaps can file down approx 1/4 in or so to allow bracket to slide through.

4) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Replace old timing cover with newer one without ledges that Ford produced in 1935. Will this newer Timing cover work on the older 1933 engine???

5) and best just thought of it.
A shallow socket wrench with tapered neck may fit under bracket to undo the last bolt
Maybe you need to call me. http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

The number is at the top of the page.
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Old 12-11-2014, 07:25 AM   #191
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Great news...
finally Got last bolt off
timing cover off
engine bracket off
Only small number of timing gear teeth missing right near crank shaft
slightly hank cranked engine. center crank gear turned, timing gear did NOT
JUST LIKE DAVIDG said
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Old 12-11-2014, 07:29 AM   #192
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Need to get old timing dear off
And select proper timing gear.
Why did Ford use a Plastic like material for original Timing Gear?
Thinking of replacing with aluminum?

What do most 4 cylinder engine owner put in their cars?
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Old 12-11-2014, 07:44 AM   #193
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Eureka! Thanks for sharing the good news.
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Old 12-11-2014, 08:29 AM   #194
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

I use the original material timing gears. Please recall the millions and millions of miles the 1928-34 fours have run on gears made of that material (as well as most of the pre-WWII V-8s).

As indicated in my PM, the next step is to remove the old gear and verify that nothing is binding the camshaft, such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:34 PM   #195
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankWest View Post
Need to get old timing dear off
And select proper timing gear.
Why did Ford use a Plastic like material for original Timing Gear?
Thinking of replacing with aluminum?

Frank,

What do most 4 cylinder engine owner put in their cars?
I assume you have a tool that looks like this for removing the nut on the end of the camshaft? After the gear is off put the nut back on with a spacer and use this tool to check that the camshaft turns freely as Dave suggested.

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Last edited by Charlie Stephens; 12-11-2014 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:13 PM   #196
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Just ordered one from Brattons..

Once I have it I will check to see if anything is binding...Hope not.
The timing gear was NOT badly broken up just the upper edges of 7 or 8 teeth were sheared off.
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:18 PM   #197
FrankWest
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidG View Post
Frank,

I use the original material timing gears. Please recall the millions and millions of miles the 1928-34 fours have run on gears made of that material (as well as most of the pre-WWII V-8s).

As indicated in my PM, the next step is to remove the old gear and verify that nothing is binding the camshaft, such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft.
I would imagine that in newly manufactured gears the resins are fresh and would not determinate for decades? As could happen in adhesives and laminates over 80 years old.

I wonder if Ford chose this original material as a type of sacrificial safety "valve" that would shear off and prevent engine from being blown if any binding occurred?
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:32 PM   #198
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, if you can remove the old gear you can then see if the cam turns without unduly heavy loading.

You don't want to wait until you fit the new gear before finding a potential problem.

You will not harm anything by turning the cam while the crank stays still. Cam rotation will be anti-clockwise when viewed from the front.

Mart.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:37 PM   #199
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think they used plastic gear so it would be quite Chevy 6 also used them.
I think what happen the dist. shaft was binding and the gear was soft and sheared when trying to start it. The gears were turning fat and happy with oil and the dist was dry and rust and bound up. Removing the dist is easy to do.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:19 PM   #200
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by George/Maine View Post
I think they used plastic gear so it would be quite Chevy 6 also used them.
I think what happen the dist. shaft was binding and the gear was soft and sheared when trying to start it. The gears were turning fat and happy with oil and the dist was dry and rust and bound up. Removing the dist is easy to do.
Thanks for your help...I will check....
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