This will ruin your day!!!!

[John Stone]

Took this out of an engine today. The owner said he was trying to catch up with the rest of the tour when it went bang. You can see the imprint of Winfield head. I'll bet bang is an understatement.

[MrTube]

Ouch! What caused that?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Just guessing, I'll bet he was able to drive it home?? Bill W.

[harleyjj]

yikes!!!

[dave in australia]

My guess at what happened is that the big end babbit came apart from lack of oil during the high speed revs, then the piston/rod assembly could move further up the bore, hit the head, knocking the crown off the piston. Just a guess.

[Gary WA]

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Looks dry no oil??

[James Rogers]

Looks like a sleeve moved.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Oh yes, the old chicken and egg question!

So, what came first?
Did the piston hit the head and leave the skirt, or did the piston top leave the skirt, then hit the head?

[John Stone]

The babbitt in the rod it OK. It looks like the piston top just separated. One thing I noted is the sleeve protruded out the bottom of the cylinder about 3/4". In this case the chicken layed the egg.

[[email protected]]

Didn't need to see that today.

[Glenn C.]

Ok....IMO the sleeve moved down, and the oil ring got hung up on the top edge of the liner. Bang !

[Marco Tahtaras]

Maybe I skimmed too fast but didn't see anything about a sleeve being found there. I'll bet there is no counterbore in the combustion chamber. He probably had "signs" before but didn't hear/feel them.

[columbiA]

I think its best if you can avoid installing sleeves or valve seat inserts.At least there is no chance of them coming loose if you dont install them.Any A or B can be safely bored to .125 OS.Even at that OS,you still have about 3/16" of water jacket thickness.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by John Stone

The babbitt in the rod it OK. It looks like the piston top just separated. One thing I noted is the sleeve protruded out the bottom of the cylinder about 3/4". In this case the chicken layed the egg.

Told you the sleeve moved. Look at the top of the sleeve and it will be down the 3/4". This is why I leave a 1/8"ledge at the bottom so this can't happen. I have other ways to keep this from happening if the sleeve is bored all the way through but won't divulge those remedies here. If you have one you are unsure of, PM me and I'll explain.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Maybe I skimmed too fast but didn't see anything about a sleeve being found there. I'll bet there is no counterbore in the combustion chamber. He probably had "signs" before but didn't hear/feel them.

Originally Posted by John Stone

The babbitt in the rod it OK. It looks like the piston top just separated. One thing I noted is the sleeve protruded out the bottom of the cylinder about 3/4". In this case the chicken layed the egg.

My first guess. I have seen this before.

[John Duden]

this happened to my truck! This is why it was Parked in '76

[John Stone]

The sleeve did not move, they are just long sleeves. The head had a counter bore and there is no evidence of any other piston hitting.
I would think there might have been a casting flaw or a small crack in the piston along with hard driving. Have no idea how fast he was going when it went.

[John LaVoy]

Originally Posted by John Stone

The babbitt in the rod it OK. It looks like the piston top just separated. One thing I noted is the sleeve protruded out the bottom of the cylinder about 3/4". In this case the chicken layed the egg.

Years ago a club member had the sleeve slide down enough that the ring caught on the top and locked the engine up. The sleeve was not pinned to the block in this case, how about in yours?

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by John LaVoy

Years ago a club member had the sleeve slide down enough that the ring caught on the top and locked the engine up. The sleeve was not pinned to the block in this case, how about in yours?

I think you missed my post right before yours. The sleeve did not move.

[Tom Wesenberg]

How high are the pistons above the block?
How thich is the compressed haed gasket?
How deep is the head counterbore?

Just trying to determine the available clearance.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

How high are the pistons above the block?
How thich is the compressed haed gasket?
How deep is the head counterbore?

Just trying to determine the available clearance.

Counterbore is .052
Gasket is .075
Did not measure the top of the pistons above the deck but I know it wasn't any more than normal around .035 or so.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by John Stone

I think you missed my post right before yours. The sleeve did not move.

Are all the sleeves 3/4"longer than the cylinder? If they are the builder didn't put them correctly. If it is only this cylinder, look closely at the top. Sometimes it is difficult to see a dropped sleeve. I say it is a dropped sleeve because you can see how the top was flexed at the sides where it broke and the top broke at a right angle to this pressure. Better look again.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Are all the sleeves 3/4"longer than the cylinder? If they are the builder didn't put them correctly. If it is only this cylinder, look closely at the top. Sometimes it is difficult to see a dropped sleeve. I say it is a dropped sleeve because you can see how the top was flexed at the sides where it broke and the top broke at a right angle to this pressure. Better look again.

I will just say that I can recognize a dropped sleeve. The sleeves are all too long. Why, I don't know. Never seen that before. Here are pictures. #2 had the broken piston. You will notice the cracks and those aren't all of them. I have rejected this block for rebuild. The owner said he had a couple of diamond blocks so will check them.

[James Rogers]

OK, I'm convinced. What do you think was in the rebuilders head when he put those in? He either didn't know how to install sleeves or didn't have a facing tool for the boring bar. If the only problem is the sleeves, they can be pulled up and pinned to work correctly. If the white marks are cracks I would look for a better block too.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by John Stone

I will just say that I can recognize a dropped sleeve. The sleeves are all too long. Why, I don't know. Never seen that before. Here are pictures. #2 had the broken piston. You will notice the cracks and those aren't all of them. I have rejected this block for rebuild. The owner said he had a couple of diamond blocks so will check them.

John,
Thanks for sharing as learning tool,eh
Curiosity: mabe the person who 'rebuilt' this engine didn't have the tools/equiment to step the bottom of the cylinder...isn't that process standard practice when installing sleeves?
With all those cracks (and more you say) was it an 'engine rebuilder' at all that did the work..to your knowledge? Just saying that I'm not a builder, but wouldn't start on a block with that cracked condition without repairs, etc...

[John Stone]

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Originally Posted by James Rogers

OK, I'm convinced. What do you think was in the rebuilders head when he put those in? He either didn't know how to install sleeves or didn't have a facing tool for the boring bar. If the only problem is the sleeves, they can be pulled up and pinned to work correctly. If the white marks are cracks I would look for a better block too.

Yep, the white marks are cracks but the worst one is about 4" long in the valve chamber.

When I install sleeves I leave a step at the bottom of the cylinder. Can't come down. I have seen sleeves that were had a pin thru the lower part of the cylinder that would also work. Don't trust the press fit theory.

I had another thought that the rod might be bent but just checked and it has no bend or twist. I do know the owner was going fast when it let go.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

John,
Thanks for sharing as learning tool,eh
Curiosity: mabe the person who 'rebuilt' this engine didn't have the tools/equiment to step the bottom of the cylinder...isn't that process standard practice when installing sleeves?
With all those cracks (and more you say) was it an 'engine rebuilder' at all that did the work..to your knowledge? Just saying that I'm not a builder, but wouldn't start on a block with that cracked condition without repairs, etc...

The original builder had a shop in Colorado but is long gone. You are right, I reject blocks that look like that.

[Tom Wesenberg]

"I do know the owner was going fast when it let go. "

That's why it's never good to play "catch up". That's when things go wrong and it also greatly increases the chance of an accident.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by John Stone

Yep, the white marks are cracks but the worst one is about 4" long in the valve chamber.

When I install sleeves I leave a step at the bottom of the cylinder. Can't come down. I have seen sleeves that were had a pin thru the lower part of the cylinder that would also work. Don't trust the press fit theory.

I had another thought that the rod might be bent but just checked and it has no bend or twist. I do know the owner was going fast when it let go.

That's the way I put sleeves in and if I find a customer has sleeves in like that I pin them with 1/4" bolts and loctite them in and grind them flush outside after boring the sleeve to size. This way the pin is almost invisible and keeps the sleeve in place.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Nothing like reviving an old thread, but if John Stone is watching, what was the outcome of all this?

[John Stone]

You really gave me a challenge. Six years is a long time considering a year ago I had a bout with Viral Meningitis and was in intensive care. The old brain doesn't remember quite like it did after that little episode.

Did a search of my records and found the pictures and the name of the guy I did it for but that was about it. I would imagine we replaced the block since that one was cracked. Haven't heard anything since so must have been successful.

Working on a B engine right now but still having some health problems so taking it slow.

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Nothing like reviving an old thread, but if John Stone is watching, what was the outcome of all this?

Tom,

You must really be snowed in if you're reviving a six year old thread!

David Serrano

[Jeff/Illinois]

https://www.flexglue.com/FLXGL/1.000...dtm?otsid=7952

How's about THIS stuff for a fix. Trust Phil!!