Seat belts

[Brianfrench65]

So...with all the discussions about seat belts, where do I attach them to?

I have a Briggs Town Sedan, and I do think seat belts are a good idea.

How do I get them held securely for optimum safety?

Thank you all, for any suggestions.

[Tiny]

You want to belts attached to the body not the frame. Model A bodies have a habit of separating from the frame during major accidents. Those seat belts will cut you in half during this kind of accident. Better to go with the body than stay with the frame.

[ModelAMike1930]

I totally agree that you shouldn't attach the belts to the frame. I attached the passenger compartment to the back of the cab, and the rumble seat belts to the floor of compartment.

[eystein]

Originally Posted by Tiny

You want to belts attached to the body not the frame. Model A bodies have a habit of separating from the frame during major accidents. Those seat belts will cut you in half during this kind of accident. Better to go with the body than stay with the frame.

Interesting point of view. Most others say that you have to attach to the frame or the attachments will break loose

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by eystein

Interesting point of view. Most others say that you have to attach to the frame or the attachments will break loose

If the anchor point is reinforced well enough they won't brake loose. Look at cars that came from the factory with belts, they are usually attached to a bung welded into the floor. I make big steel plates to back my seat belt anchors usually. On my A I used a piece of angle iron from one side to the other. If the angle iron pulls through the body I doubt I'm going to live to tell the tale anyway. If the body were to come off the frame I would rather be attached to it than held to the frame when the body tried to leave the frame. One of me is enough for the world if I was cut in half I don't think the world could handle two of me

[Pete]

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Lay the seat belt on a chair. Put a cushion on top of it. Sit down and fasten the belt.
Stand up and go get in your car. The belt is always with you so you don't have to bother fastening and unfastening all the time. It will do you about as much good as fastening to the body. Another advantage of this method is when you are ejected from the car you will have a nice soft cushion to land on.

[Brianfrench65]

So.....in the Briggs Town Sedan, the body is attached to the wood sills, with that, how about a piece of 5/16" thick, 1 1/2" wide X 48" long, under the cross member, behind the seats. I could bolt through the cross member and the flat stock.

What are your thoughts on this approach?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Brian,

I have a 1930 Briggs Town Sedan where the chassis is steel, basically similar to that of all other Model A's.

The body above the chassis is almost all wood structure wrapped in a sheet metal skin.

The sheet metal covering the rear spring under all of the rear seat is tacked into the perimeter wood sills below with small tapered shoe tacks, and the rear seat foot rest immediately behind the front seat is also sheet metal tacked into the perimeter wood sills below with small tapered shoe tacks.

If one were to attach seat belts to either of these two (2) sheet metal pans, it would not require much force to extract all of these small tapered shoe tacks & pull both metal pans upwards.

The rear wood cross member and wood cross member behind the front seat is non-structurally mortised into the two (2) wood side rails "without" metal connections, and neither wood cross member is bolted the chassis.

No sane professional wants to place his seal on a Model A seat belt design for such a wood structure, but with the above mentioned "iffy" structural conditions, for Life Safety, you may want to seek advice from someone locally, with just a bit of structural knowledge and experienced as to where to attach seat belts on a 1930 Briggs Town Sedan.

[barkleydave]

Check out Les Andrews book has suggestions.

Also check out Julianos. They have special backing plates for pan applications and will NOT pull through the pan. That's the route I went.

[mhsprecher]

Les Andrews has information on seat belt installation in his Volume II of the Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook, for coupes, fordors and tudors. I have a 1930 TS. The seat belts, which came with the car, are attached to the wood under the front seat. Not sure about the rears without crawling under the car. There are a number of previous threads on this topic on FB.

[glenn in camino]

I believe that seat belts in a Model A are useful to keep you from falling out if a door pops open. Usually staying in the car is your best chance of survival.

[Brianfrench65]

Thank you all; I appreciate all of the input.

I will purchase volume II.

Thank you.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Brian,

In 1972 I witnessed about an 80 year old gentleman lawyer whom I met that was retiring where he was in the process of moving out into the hallway dated file boxes of 8" x 10" black and white photos of past vintage automobile wrecks.

Being I was already a Model A owner for 15 years, I asked if he would mind my looking through his photos at the most interesting late 1920's through late 1930 auto wrecks. He had absolutely no objection.

Just like these many vintage photos seen back then; and also later photos of Model A wrecks on Forums, I cannot remember seeing Model A bodies being separated from Model A frames.

In my opinion, with full width 2" x 2" x 1/4" modern, A-36 steel angles, and with Grade 8 bolts, it would not take too much structural imagination to be able to better fasten a light 1930 Briggs wood Model A body to a heavy steel Model A chassis which is attached to a heavy engine, a transmission, a differential etc.

Even if a 1930 Briggs Town Sedan wood body would possibly leave the heavily weighted down chassis, I cannot think of anything more dangerous than passengers tumbling down a modern highway at 60 mph in a cross wind while trying to cling on the interior of a light rolling apple crate with no center of gravity.

Just out of the box opinions ...... nothing too serious.

[Brianfrench65]

H. L.; thank you very much.

The Les Andrews book suggests that the seat belt fastens to the base of the front seat sheet metal back, just below the back cushion. This does not sound like it will be substantial enough.

I was thinking about the chassis for an anchor point, but was cautioned by previous posts. I am looking for safety, without doing the wrong thing, and end up causing harm.

Thank you all; for your input.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Brian,

A few additional common sense things to think about when considering seat belts in a 1930 Briggs Model A with a "wood" body:

A. Connections:

1. One thing to always consider when working with any wood structure, (even a Model A with wood cross sills, or a barn to house a Model A), is that the weakest point or weakest part of any wood structure is always at the ends of the wood members; i.e., where one (1) wood member connects to another wood member, which is for example, either parallel or perpendicular to the cross member.

2. However, when wood members, (even small wood members), have steel connections securely fastened at both ends, one has achieved wood connections designed for a structure that can easily withstand far above hurricane force winds.

B. Structural steel:

1. In (A) above, if one goes to Home Depot, one finds that many recommended structural wood Code approved metal connections are thin 16 gage steel, not much thicker than the steel on a can of Campbell soup.

2. The minute one begins to incorporate modern A 36 minimum 1/8" thick steel angles and channels securely attached to both wood cross members and a steel chassis, it is not difficult to imagine lifting a Model A body where the chassis, the engine, the transmission, and differential is lifted along with the body, with wheels and tires.

C. Wood Body Structural Assessment:

1. When dealing with the structural wood assessment of an 80+ year old painted wood boat ....... or 80+ year old painted sub-frames on a Model A, (both of which, when painted, "look" good), a vintage tip was to always carry your pocket knife with a sharp point to complete your structural assessment of painted wood.

2. When applying very little pressure on good looking painted wood, the point on a pocket knife can quickly and easily find sound wood and can also quickly easily find rotten wood ....... i.e., if the wood is rotten, it has no strength.

D. Education: Remember this: If one were to ride through a small rural town after a very ferocious hurricane, it is comforting to realize that the strong buildings still standing were usually the ones designed by guys with a 3rd grade education; ............ however, the carefully computer designed engineered gas station canopies, designed by licensed structural engineers with engineering degrees, can usually be found miles away in somebody's corn field.

Not all opinions are based on past experiences!

[jrelliott]

In my '28 Briggs, I placed seat belts in both front and rear. Two in front and three in the rear. In both cases, placed angle iron from each frame rail to attach the seat belts. Used grade 8 bolts for the anchors. Since I do not travel at 60 mph and most of the driving is in town at very low speeds, do not worry that the body will come off the frame in an accident. Just want everyone to stay inside the vehicle especially with the rear doors. If you want to see how I did it send me a email [email protected] and will send you the photos.

[Brianfrench65]

H L & J R; excellent suggestions, and I fully understand.

Thank you very much, for sharing your knowledge and providing support to my question.

Thank You.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by jrelliott

In my '28 Briggs, I placed seat belts in both front and rear. Two in front and three in the rear. In both cases, placed angle iron from each frame rail to attach the seat belts. Used grade 8 bolts for the anchors. Since I do not travel at 60 mph and most of the driving is in town at very low speeds, do not worry that the body will come off the frame in an accident. Just want everyone to stay inside the vehicle especially with the rear doors. If you want to see how I did it send me a email [email protected] and will send you the photos.

You might not be traveling at 60MPH but what about the drunk doing 80MPH that doesn't see you?

[Tiny]

Official MAFCA writings on the subject

http://www.mafca.com/seat_belts.html

[Brianfrench65]

Tiny; that is an incredible resource. Thank you very much !!

Thank you for generous effort.

Thank you.