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Old 08-12-2019, 11:41 AM   #1
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re Insurance

I am looking to learn about what Model A clubs do with regard to insurance.


Case 1: Not all club members are members of MARC / MAFCA, so they have no insurance coverage at club activities. Does your club purchase annual liability insurance for club activities?


Case 2: Club leadership members can make decisions with unintended consequences that are deleterious to club members and or the club's assets. Does your club purchase annual insurance to protect its leaders?
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:19 PM   #2
Jim/GA
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Default Re: Re Insurance

You are correct about the risk to any member that volunteers to be an officer or a director of a local club. If there is an incident, they will be sued for negligence and their personal assets are at risk. I know of several examples. The normal practice is to name everyone in the lawsuit and then let the courts figure out who may or may not have been negligent. Even if innocent, it is an expensive process to get extricated from.

I belong to 2 local clubs.

One requires all officers and directors to belong to both MARC and MAFCA, so that there is no doubt that they are covered by the national clubs' Directors & Officers Liability Insurance. They only require the rest of the membership to belong to one of the two club (but encourage membership in both). They do not purchase any additional liability insurance.

The other club requires all members belong to MAFCA, period. That keeps paperwork simple. You are free to also join MARC if you want to, and most do. They do not purchase any additional liability insurance.

If you properly enforce membership requirements, I don't think you need to purchase additional liability insurance for your Directors & Officers. That's why the national clubs provide it to the local clubs. But you do need to fully understand the policies that they have, what is covered, what is not. Liability for actions while driving an old car are not covered by them. Negligence in planning or executing an activity (tour, picnic, etc.) is supposed to be covered.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:42 PM   #3
Mike V. Florida
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Those that are not MARC members in our club sign a waiver, it is long and in fine print.
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:01 AM   #4
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
Those that are not MARC members in our club sign a waiver, it is long and in fine print.
I have seen repeatedly in court that waivers are not worth the paper they are printed on. The courts throw them out. Waivers just intimidate average people from suing, but if there is a claim of negligence, any good lawyer will challenge it and win. Happens every day. We all sign waivers all over the place; they won't stand up to legal pressure.

And what rights exactly are they waiving? The right for someone else to sue them because they were involved in an incident on a club activity? It doesn't work that way. Or are they waiving the right to be covered by the national D&O insurance when there is an incident and they are an officer or director? Only a fool would sign that. Cheaper to join MARC and MAFCA, and know you are covered.

Or maybe they are waiving their right to sue the club officers and directors because one of the above screwed up? That's what the MARC insurance is there for, to cover the officers and directors if there is an incident and it is claimed that they were negligent. If they are not MARC members, then they are members of the general public and the general public can sue the officers and directors for negligence any day they want, regardless of waiver. (So can MARC members, and their heirs, so what difference does membership make?)

This is a messy business, but if there is an incident during a club event, the directors and officers WILL be named in the suit and the courts will settle it, at significant cost to the defendants. If it is a social event at a club member's home or business, that homeowner or business owner will be named, too. I hope that they are MARC and MAFCA members, or else have a bunch of personal liability insurance to cover them!

But the national club D&O insurance is there for this very reason. A club could always buy more, but it seems like overkill.
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Old 08-13-2019, 06:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: Re Insurance

well said Jim.


thank you.
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Old 08-13-2019, 07:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Very informative.
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:44 AM   #7
Bob Bidonde
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Jim,
Thanks for your informative response. I will be passing your response to the board members of my local club. We are investigating insurance and its cost.
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Old 08-13-2019, 11:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Re Insurance

The Model T club I am a member of is a LLC to protect the individual members in case of suit involving the club. We have no requirement to join the national T clubs to be a member of our club. We do carry insurance, but I don't know much of what it covers etc except the club when we have tours and banquet events.

We only have one fund raising event, the Portland Swap Meet, which is in partnership with several other Portland car clubs, but is its own LLC. Individual members of course carry their own insurance on tours for their car.
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Old 08-14-2019, 07:02 AM   #9
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Our "club" is just a bunch of guys who have a common interest in Model A's. We have breakfast together once a month and enjoy each other's company. We don't have any officers, we don't have a treasury, we don't have a constitution or bylaws. All we are is a group who wear the same colored shirts. It works out well.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Jim/Tx is correct.If your local Model A club doesn't have directors/officers insurance, don't become an officer. Also, check that there is insurance for the meeting place, parking lot, etc.. That's what the dues should include.
I'm not sure it was mentioned but check with your classic car insurer for specific and underlying coverages, such as parade/event use, etc. Some folks have done wedding parties transport until they discovered they weren't covered for that within a club or privately.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke36 View Post
Jim/Tx is correct.If your local Model A club doesn't have directors/officers insurance, don't become an officer. Also, check that there is insurance for the meeting place, parking lot, etc.. That's what the dues should include.
I'm not sure it was mentioned but check with your classic car insurer for specific and underlying coverages, such as parade/event use, etc. Some folks have done wedding parties transport until they discovered they weren't covered for that within a club or privately.
I quit doing wedding drives. Simply more trouble than it's worth.
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:45 PM   #12
Mike V. Florida
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Default Re: Re Insurance

Really "Mr. Mafca"? this is from your national clubs site. Why would they have such a thing?


https://mafca.com/downloads/Forms/Wa...%20Release.pdf


I'm waiting!


Indemnification contracts are a common tenant in business. They are signed all the time, upheld all the time (try a simple Google search). Read some of the common products products you buy.


We had two different lawyers look at the form, Your form, make a wording change or two and said we were good to go.


This is a country where anyone can sue anyone, winning is another matter. You are told of a risk and take the risk you are on your own.


MAFCA is having an event where the Belvue Hilton is the host hotel, has anyone read the contract you "sign" to even use the website? https://hiltonhonors3.hilton.com/en/...t/english.html


Why would a site have that kind of an indemnification clause, hidden within the site if the courts always throw them out?


Is it better to be a member of the national and local club, YEA but to say all indemnification contracts are worthless is not true.
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Last edited by Mike V. Florida; 08-16-2019 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:04 AM   #13
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Default Re: Re Insurance

For the record, a waiver and an indemnification are different things. Waivers release the party originating the contract from certain liabilities to the party signing the contract. Indemnification lays out the circumstances under which, should one party be sued by a third party, the other party will assume the defense of the suit or pay its costs.
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