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Old 08-17-2013, 09:32 PM   #1
BetsyModelA
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Lightbulb Model A motor froze-up

Anyone know how to "move" a froze-up motor?
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I have removed the spark plugs and sprayed the cylinders with Kroil, soak, and repeat until lose. Be sure to spray the valves. One can also place a wood dowell dow the spark plug holes and tap, tap, tap. Takes a bit of time and lots of soaking but has worked for me.
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Is the motor still in the car? Starter still installed. A wedged starter drive can make a motor seem froze. If it is really froze up as Donino said soak with good penatrting oil. Half automatic transmission fluid and acetone makes a good penatrting oil. Time and patience.
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Thank you for your quick reply. I'll give it a try. Hope I can find the "Kroil."
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

How did it freeze up? While running, been sitting for 10 years, or ????? It would depend on how it happened as to how to unfreeze.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Yes. Move it to a shop and disassemble it. Then you will find out why it froze up and what is needed to repair it.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Fifty-five years ago, had one engine sitting outside for 10 years that locked up.

1. Took it inside, removed head, removed oil pan, & removed crankshaft; "then" found (3) pistons could move & (1) could not.

2. Only concentrated on soaking & moving this (1) non-moving piston.

3. Back then, soaked with Liquid-Wrench for about a week & lightly tapped top of piston with a pine 2x4 every day after soaking for (2) days.

4. It finally broke loose, so I kept the same rings, same pistons, then honed cylinders slightly & re-assembled -- great engine.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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Originally Posted by BetsyModelA View Post
Thank you for your quick reply. I'll give it a try. Hope I can find the "Kroil."

Here is where you get it.
http://kanolabs.com/
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

WAIT WAIT WAIT

Before you follow the great advise given here, like Fred asked how did it freeze up?

Sitting many years long?
Drove it and it stopped while driving?
Worked fine the would not restart after stopping?

Each of these have a different starting point.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Thank you for responding. The motor and starter are still in this 1929 Ford pickup. All the parts are there. It has stood stationary for several years (indoors).
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I would remove the starter and try to pull it over by hand with a crank first. (that eliminates the jammed bendix possibility right away.)

THEN maybe go into lubricant/solvent mode for a while doing all the suggestions each time trying the hand crank to move it.

THEN maybe the dowel in the spark plug hole (careful - go easy - you don't want to punch a hole in the top of the piston.) Maybe alternate with compressed air on a cylinder which seems not leaky and the valves are closed (one of these is sure to be so.)

THEN maybe take a step back, get yer tools out and start by taking the head off. Rinse and repeat with the 2x4 like the dowel trick, but the larger impact area will allow you greater impact/force.

THEN MAYBE go forward with a more complete disassembly in place to determine the place where it is binding. You may find one piston hung up if you have/had a coolant leak unknown in the past.

About then I would pull the engine and tear it down formally after proper introductions. No more Mr/Ms nice person.

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:22 PM   #12
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Back in the early sixties I bought a '29 Phaeton with a siezed motor and the head off. We Towed to the top of a steep hill and coasted down the hill with a friend lying on the front mudguard.
When I dropped the clutch it started turning over and the friend squirted oil down the bores,
We got many good miles out of the engine before it needed a rebuild.
I wouldn't recommend that procedure today!
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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Originally Posted by BetsyModelA View Post
Anyone know how to "move" a froze-up motor?
A 4 wheel moving cart works well.

I would remove the 4 spark plugs and squirt some diesel and ATF, or Kroil, or any good penetrating oil, let it set for a day or two, then put the car in high gear and try rocking it back and forth.

If that doesn't work the I made a tools from a bad starter end plate and pinion that works pretty well to unstick motors.
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

When I had my huckster engine rebuilt, after having it in our barn for many years, the rebuilder had to break the pistons to get them out. It had the head off and mice had a great time living in it. So it may be hard to tell what you need to do. Maybe just start with some of the suggestions above and see what happens.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Here's the tool I made to help with stuck motors. With a good soak and this tool, hopefully it would come free. But as mentioned earlier, soak the cylinders first then try rocking the car back and forth in high gear. Rock it a couple times a day and it might come loose.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...l+stuck+motors
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I'm overwhelmed with all these helpful responses. I'm glad to have so many choices, if one doesn't work, the next one will. I'll be looking for product and experimenting. Hopefully, I won't have to tear the head off. Betsy worked fine when I parked it some 30 years ago, so I'm supposing the inactivity made it lock-up. I am concerned about rust even though it shows oil on the dip stick. I can't move the crank shaft using the crank. But, I don't want to apply too much pressure afraid I'd hurt something inside. I will try the soaking, rocking in third gear. Not sure of the product availability in our small town. I'll keep you all posted.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Where are you located?
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:10 AM   #18
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North Dakota
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:25 AM   #19
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I understand that "Kroil" is 1/2 acetone and 1/2 ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid)...Is that correct?

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Old 08-19-2013, 10:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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North Dakota
North Dakota is a BIG state!

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Old 08-19-2013, 11:10 AM   #21
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Karl used to post on this site and had a great story about starting a stuck engine. he made a spark plug into a grease fitting and pumped the cylinder on the down stroke with grease. He kept pumping until the jug popped loose. He then fired up the engine is his garage! He said everything was covered with burnt grease!
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I found Kroil locally. I'll give it a try today.

Aww, patience, someone said. I'll let it soak a day or two before rocking it.
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Ha! The guy at the NAPA store fibbed. He didn't have the Kroil. I did manage to get the MMO Marvel Miracle Oil from him though. I took the spark plugs out, poured about a cup of MMO into each spark plug hole, put Betsy into high gear, and then my husband and I rocked the pick up back and forth. Heard sloshing somewhere. Not sure if it was in the motor or if it was old gas. Will try the crank in a few days and perhaps more rocking. I'm thinking about emptying the radiator, putting clean water through for a flush. Will want to put water back in, but need a coolant. What should I mix with the water? Antifreeze or alcohol? I sound like a kindergarten kid, but I have to start at the beginning. Thanks for your help.
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:58 PM   #24
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I wouldn't worry about the radiator yet. Concentrate on getting the engine turning over with some compression and then go from there. Just my $0.02.

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Old 08-19-2013, 08:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Wow! I think half a cup would have been plenty! It's OK though, Just try to catch it when it runs out of the spark plug holes. If there water/Antifreeze in the engine thats good, No leaks! Let's concentrate on the engine first. Cooling system can come later. While you're soaking the engine, better drain all the old gas and flush the tank. There may be rust particles. Pour a little fresh gas directly through the tank. Maybe half a gallon or so to flush all the crud out. Reassemble the system and take the fuel line off and make sure it's clear. before you put the gas line on the carburetor, put a little gas in the tank and open the valve and see if it runs through. Keep rocking it in 3rd gear all the while.
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Quote:
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Ha! The guy at the NAPA store fibbed. He didn't have the Kroil. I did manage to get the MMO Marvel Miracle Oil from him though. I took the spark plugs out, poured about a cup of MMO into each spark plug hole, put Betsy into high gear, and then my husband and I rocked the pick up back and forth. Heard sloshing somewhere. Not sure if it was in the motor or if it was old gas. Will try the crank in a few days and perhaps more rocking. I'm thinking about emptying the radiator, putting clean water through for a flush. Will want to put water back in, but need a coolant. What should I mix with the water? Antifreeze or alcohol? I sound like a kindergarten kid, but I have to start at the beginning. Thanks for your help.
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:02 PM   #26
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Quote:
Karl used to post on this site and had a great story about starting a stuck engine. he made a spark plug into a grease fitting and pumped the cylinder on the down stroke with grease. He kept pumping until the jug popped loose. He then fired up the engine is his garage! He said everything was covered with burnt grease!
Be careful doing this, you'll bust an engine up real quick. The hydraulic pressure out of a grease gun is very very high.
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:30 PM   #27
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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I understand that "Kroil" is 1/2 acetone and 1/2 ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid)...Is that correct?

Pluck
I don't know what chemicals are in Kroil, but I can vouch for the fact that acetone and ATF works better than anything I've ever tried. Not too long ago I bought an old Warford overdrive for our Model T speedster project and it must have sat full of water for 70 years because it was completely rusted solid. I filled it with a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF, and 30 minutes later I was turning it by hand. No joke!

Before:


Soaking:
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:36 AM   #28
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Pull off the valve cover and make sure the valves are opening and closing useing a screw driver or something like it to check them. For some reason Model A's stick valves
when they sit. They can lock up a motor just like the pistons can.
Just make sure they are free before you try to unstick the rest of the motor.
I have seen a couple of blocks where they tried to tow the car to unstick the motor
and broke the lifter bosses right out of the motor.
So after the valves are unstuck check the lifters also.
And the ATF and Acentone thing really works, better than anything I've ever used.
Happy unsticking...........

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Old 08-20-2013, 08:06 AM   #29
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Thank you, Dodge, for this helpful suggestion. I'll give this one a try for sure.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:07 AM   #30
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This one gives me hope.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:05 PM   #31
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

It wasn't mentioned but I hope that you didn't put the spark plugs back in.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:47 PM   #32
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Ross/Kzoo, Oops! Yes, I did.
Need to leave them removed?

With my lack of knowledge I need all information I can get to not back-step.
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:10 PM   #33
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Ross/Kzoo, Oops! Yes, I did.
Need to leave them removed?

With my lack of knowledge I need all information I can get to not back-step.

Just be sure and take them back out before you try and rotate the engine. You can't compress a liquid and if you try, bad things will happen.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:36 PM   #34
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Once while watching Chasing Classic Cars, Roger the old mechanic let it slip that MMO was their "secret juice" they put in the cylinders to loosen engines that have been sitting for a long time. Seems to work for them.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:41 PM   #35
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Yes, leave them out until you get that motor spinning freely.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:54 PM   #36
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I'm thinking I may have to go this route. The pouring Marvel's Miracle Oil and rocking isn't enough.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:56 PM   #37
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I'm going to keep trying the MMO. But am also thinking of removing the head to take a look inside.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:57 PM   #38
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Okay, Ross/Kzoo.
I put more MMO in. Will let it set 24 hours, and try again.
I bought a gallon. Have poured in 2 qts.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:03 PM   #39
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If you check the archive you'll see that many Barners will walk by their projects every couple of days and squirt some MMO or other products for weeks before trying to get it turning. Be patient but most of all try to get in touch with a Model A person or old time mechanic to help you with this. You seem to be in a remote area there. My niece lives in Dickinson and BIL and SIL in Baker Mt. so I get by there every so often.

Did you drain the crankcase? If so what did the fluids look like?
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:26 PM   #40
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Remember too much force and you will be adding bent rods, a bent crank etc to your list of problems.

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Old 08-23-2013, 08:50 PM   #41
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Be patient and keep trying and one day, BING!!! it will let go for you. I wouldn't take the head off just yet. The engine will still be stuck and you will have to put the head back on, A complicated process for a non mechanic. Just keep rocking it, it will break free!
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:27 PM   #42
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Coca Cola Classic in the cylinders. My buddy busted a few flatheads with it loose. And I got a A motor spinning last week after using it. I didn't buy it but I tried it and it worked.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:42 PM   #43
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I previously suggested to fill the crankcase & cylinders to OVERFLOWING with diesel & let it SOAK for weeks! NO ONE replied, either YEY or NAY! So, I deleted it! At least this way has a chance for the diesel to soak into ALL the internals Bill W.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:18 AM   #44
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Anyone know how to "move" a froze-up motor?
Wait for warm weather.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:39 AM   #45
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Sounds like you are on the right track. Persistence and patience will pay off. We would love to see pictures of your Model A! I lived in Grand Forks, ND for seven years while attending UND and flight instructing and did a lot of cross country flights out near Devils Lake and your neck of the woods. I know of a couple other Model A'ers on the fordbarn from Nodak that might be able to give you a hand also. Good luck!
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:35 AM   #46
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Thank you, Terry, for the hope in my grueling effort.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:38 AM   #47
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Thank you, fordman. My aim is to see Betsy up and running one day. She's been idle a long time. I've neglected my prized old friend for too long. Now's her time. With all the suggestions I've been receiving even these dish-pan hands will see her going again. Thanks to all the interest and expert advice, we'll get her going.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:41 AM   #48
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Ha! George Miller.
It is in the 90s here in ND. I'd hate to see it get much warmer~with a smile.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:46 AM   #49
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Sorry Bill Williamson,
I must have missed your suggestion to "fill up to overflowing."
Last fall I did put about a pint of diesel fuel into the 4 spark plug holes. I left it over the winter expecting results this spring. No such luck. Since then, in my discouragement, I've left Betsy until now. I'm back with determination to get that motor loosed. My present task has me using Marvel's Miracle Oil. I have poured 2 quarts of it into the 4 spark plug holes, set the gear to high, rock Betsy back and forth with gusto. The crank handle moves slightly, but no "break-through" yet. I'll keep trying.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:08 PM   #50
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Sorry Bill Williamson,
I must have missed your suggestion to "fill up to overflowing."
Last fall I did put about a pint of diesel fuel into the 4 spark plug holes. I left it over the winter expecting results this spring. No such luck. Since then, in my discouragement, I've left Betsy until now. I'm back with determination to get that motor loosed. My present task has me using Marvel's Miracle Oil. I have poured 2 quarts of it into the 4 spark plug holes, set the gear to high, rock Betsy back and forth with gusto. The crank handle moves slightly, but no "break-through" yet. I'll keep trying.
Yo, Betsy, My ooold Remington, Model 41, Targetmaster .22 squirrel gun is named BETSY too! Anyhow, When Chief & I built my first Model A, a '28 CCPU, we were given an oooold portable arc welder, powered by an "A" motor that had been sitting for EONS! We kept it filled to overflowing with diesel for weeks & was finally able to turn it. The motor was mounted quite high & we were able to get the pan off easily. We disassembled it in place & the babbitt was excellent! After lapping the valves, honed & re-ringed the pistons, we used the rig as a test stand & ran that dude with a homemade garden hose cooling system. Chief said something about it being a REALLY EARLY engine???
It turned out to be a really good engine and in it's lifetime, I used it in 3 different Model A's.
(OH! Chief was my Dad & Model A mentor & I quote him often. He "built" dependable "A" Models in his spare time & sold them, so we could EAT!!) Bill W.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:09 PM   #51
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A couple of important questions! Does the crank handle move? How about the fan? (Someone watches while the other rocks) It sounds like you're well on the way. Did you check the oil level in the crankcase? Has any of the Marvel's Mystery Oil leaked down through the rings and into a crankcase? You should have six to seven quarts in the CC now. That's good too!
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Sorry Bill Williamson,
I must have missed your suggestion to "fill up to overflowing."
Last fall I did put about a pint of diesel fuel into the 4 spark plug holes. I left it over the winter expecting results this spring. No such luck. Since then, in my discouragement, I've left Betsy until now. I'm back with determination to get that motor loosed. My present task has me using Marvel's Miracle Oil. I have poured 2 quarts of it into the 4 spark plug holes, set the gear to high, rock Betsy back and forth with gusto. The crank handle moves slightly, but no "break-through" yet. I'll keep trying.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:18 PM   #52
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I previously suggested to fill the crankcase & cylinders to OVERFLOWING with diesel & let it SOAK for weeks! NO ONE replied, either YEY or NAY! So, I deleted it! At least this way has a chance for the diesel to soak into ALL the internals Bill W.
I posted something similar a year or so ago and it wasn't received kindly.

I don't see why you should get preferential treatment! LOL
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:39 PM   #53
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Wished I'd had a "Chief" to give me pointers today. When my Dad worked on Betsy, I paid no attention. My loss. I wasn't interested then.

I added more Marvel's Miracle Oil today, rocked some more, will try again. The crank moves only a little. The fan moves slightly with it.

Will keep rockin.

My husband likes to tinker too, but he's guessing right along with me.
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:54 PM   #54
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Thanks, Charlie. I'm taking it slow and easy. The crank is quite solid, won't force anything.
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:59 PM   #55
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How do I "drain the crankcase?"
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:02 PM   #56
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I posted something similar a year or so ago and it wasn't received kindly.

I don't see why you should get preferential treatment! LOL
That's FUNNY, Ross, You're about as INSECURE as me!!
Chief used to say, "We're ALL insecure & need attention & sympathy, it's just that some won't admit it"!! Bill W.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:17 PM   #57
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Keep her rocking. Soon you will see movement growing exponentially. First 1/100th of a revolution then 1/75th then 1/25th and on and on. Sounds like it will free up!

Again, leave the plugs out of it until it spins freely with the starter.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:18 PM   #58
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Personally I'd forgo the MMO for now and use 50/50 ...ATF/acetone. It's a thinner solution that I think penetrates quicker and a proven "unsticker". I have a formally "stuck" A engine that I unstuck. I put a 3/4 inch drive, 1 7/16 socket on the crank pully (engine was on the ground) with a breaker bar and nudged it every day til it moved. 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch 1/2 inch ect. doesn't take long once you get a little movement going. It worked for me. Good luck!
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:51 PM   #59
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Thanks, Rusty.
Wished I'd gone the 50/50 before I did the MMO.
Now, if I can figure out how to drain out all that MMO . . .
I'm going to keep trying any "unsticker" that will possibly work.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:51 PM   #60
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Ok, Ross.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:02 PM   #61
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Thanks, Rusty.
Wished I'd gone the 50/50 before I did the MMO.
Now, if I can figure out how to drain out all that MMO . . .
I'm going to keep trying any "unsticker" that will possibly work.
Betsy, I don't think that you are to that point yet. After you get that motor spinning most the MMO will come out of the spark plug holes and past the valves to the crankcase. That is good thing to have the MMO around the valves and valve stems. At that point you may want to remove the drain plug and see what comes out besides oil.

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Old 08-24-2013, 07:03 PM   #62
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montanafordman,
I posted a picture of Betsy on my profile page. Haven't figured out how to get it out of there.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:04 PM   #63
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Aha! The more I hear the more things make sense. Thanks.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:13 PM   #64
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First try removing the starter. i've found many with the starter drive hung up and not just Model A's. Acetone and Atf works if it is actually stuck. Then load it on a trailer,chain it loosely and put it in high gear. drag aroung with you and watch the fan blade as the car tries to roll. i've had tractors free in a trip to lonch. Worst one took two days of following me. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:56 PM   #65
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My engine was stuck about 3 weeks ago also. What I did to settle my curiosity was remove the oil pan and dry every piston and rod really good. So when I poured the mixture in each cylinder I could clearly see from the bottom of the engine which cylinder was allowing the fluid to leak past the rings. The dry piston and rod is the culprit. The one stuck. Eventually I still pulled the head off to which I was glad I did due to the number 1 cylinder being severely gouged from a broken locking pin and moving piston pin.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:26 PM   #66
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Glad it worked for you, Barber 31. Sounds like work to me, but if I hafta, I hafta.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #67
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Anteek, thanks. Will keep posting progress - when I get some.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:41 PM   #68
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Happy for your success. Mine is yet to come.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:55 PM   #69
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I know this was well intentioned, But.... You're asking a woman who has very limited mechanical experience to crawl underneath a truck that's been sitting in place for over 50 years. Then know how to take a oil pan down. At some point she's going to have to put it back, new gaskets and all. A Formidable task to be sure. In fact, I regards taking an oil pan down as a really rotten job and I know what's involved. Think of what could go wrong for a person who has never done it before. I believe this engine can be freed without taking it apart. In fact I think that she's almost there with the crank starting to move.
Terry










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My engine was stuck about 3 weeks ago also. What I did to settle my curiosity was remove the oil pan and dry every piston and rod really good. So when I poured the mixture in each cylinder I could clearly see from the bottom of the engine which cylinder was allowing the fluid to leak past the rings. The dry piston and rod is the culprit. The one stuck. Eventually I still pulled the head off to which I was glad I did due to the number 1 cylinder being severely gouged from a broken locking pin and moving piston pin.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:59 PM   #70
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wouldnt it be something if it turned out to be a frozen brake drum and stuck clutch disc.

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Old 08-24-2013, 09:17 PM   #71
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What comes Next! Betsey, when you do get it to turn over, remember, there is rust on the cylinder walls and the camshaft and other parts as well. This rust rubs off and gets into the oil as an abrasive particle, much like sand. And much like sand, they can destroy the engine. It is a balancing act to know how long you should take to get this contaminated oil out of the system. Too long and you risk damage, too soon and you don't get enough of the particles. The old story I heard was about ten minutes at idle speed. Then it has to be changed. When it's changed, pour a qt. of diesel/fuel oil through the engine to flush what ever particles are left behind. This will begin the desludgeing process. Put the cheapest DETERGENT oil you can find. After about five hours (of running) or so, Drain this oil out and replace with a somewhat better quality oil. Terry
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:34 PM   #72
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YES!!! I know why a Dr won't diagnose over the phone! You try to think of everything! Without seeing it, it's all a guessing game, but with probabilities.
Mod A engines are prone to seizing up after long periods of inactivity. Same with my Allis Chalmers. I had to free the engine up[, The previous owner hadn't started it in about three years. MMO did the trick for me. That is the
the 1938 A.C. mod B in my profile.
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wouldnt it be something if it turned out to be a frozen brake drum and stuck clutch disc.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:50 AM   #73
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wouldnt it be something if it turned out to be a frozen brake drum and stuck clutch disc.
Yo, Bro, Dog here,
Think about it Sonny Boy, Iffin' the disc wuz stuk, wouldn't matter none, iffin' the transfuselator wuz in NEUTRAL! (Thet's where the stick will WOBBLE side to side, like in the middle uf the "H" pattern! (BUT, I cain't shift it fer you, NO THUMBS)
Buster T.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:00 AM   #74
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Yo, Bro, Dog here,
Think about it Sonny Boy, Iffin' the disc wuz stuk, wouldn't matter none, iffin' the transfuselator wuz in NEUTRAL! (Thet's where the stick will WOBBLE side to side, like in the middle uf the "H" pattern! (BUT, I cain't shift it fer you, NO THUMBS)
Buster T.
Very good u passed bro
Ill send you a bone
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:50 AM   #75
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Terry, NJ
You got me pegged. All suggestions given have given me both a heavy-heart of defeat before I get going, and yet, a desire to keep going.


I'm going to keep trying. I'll report if I get ANY success. If not, I'll try another suggestion. I do have "cheap" oil on hand for a flush. I also have ATF and acetone on hand for another option. I've been trying to get the plug out of the oil pan, but it, too, is stuck. I sprayed it with liquid wrench, leaving it to penetrate. Will give it another try today.

Yes, I'm a 72-year-old woman, with a new mechanical passion. Thanks, Fellows.

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Old 08-25-2013, 07:59 AM   #76
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It didn't get stuck overnight and it won't get unstuck overnight. Just keep "plugging" away. Sorry I couldn't resist that one. When loosening stuck bolts/plugs sometimes a little force in the opposite direction will help loosening.
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:21 AM   #77
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"All suggestions given have given me both a heavy-heart of defeat before I get going, and yet, a desire to keep going"

DON'T YOU DARE LET IT BEAT YOU!!!. If there's one thing us old farts have learned over the years is patience. If it doesn't break loose today, it's just not ready yet. So you wait for the next day, or the next one. It'll come. Just keep bumpin' it.
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:10 AM   #78
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I wouldn't worry about draining the pan yet, but it would be nice to loosen the plug to see if antifreeze comes out first. It it does, then it might be time to take the engine apart. I had to do a GM inline 6 that was stored for 5 or 6 years with antifreeze that leaked into the cylinders. It was stuck very tight and I had to pull the head, pan and pistons out to get it unstuck and give it an overhaul. If antifreeze doesn't come out the drain plug that's a very good sign and I'd keep rocking the car back and forth in high gear.

I do like the idea of chained loose on a trailer, then towing it around as a way to loosen a stuck engine.
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:12 AM   #79
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Like Tom I have a old starter with a nut welded on the end of of the armature shaft. Not as nice as Tom's but does the job. At this point it would break it loose, always works. If you have a old starter try it. Tom gave you some good advice.
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Old 08-25-2013, 11:42 AM   #80
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I know there are no MAFCA or MARC clubs in North Dakota but maybe someone with
a roster can see if there are any members in ND that could help.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:28 PM   #81
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Thanks Rusty. I'm not giving up yet.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:29 PM   #82
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Thanks, Bob, I'll check the MARC online.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:33 PM   #83
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Okay, I'll keep twisting, turning, rocking, squirting and pouring. Instead of shopping for a new purse, I'm going shopping for a good set of wrenches.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:14 PM   #84
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Betsey, I've been thinking about your car and I'd like to know if it will roll without the engine. Can you hook it up behind something and pull it? At least out of the shed/barn in neutral? Will it roll? I think I want to confirm that something else isn't stuck. Was the Emergency brake on for all that time? I think I would hitch it to a big lawn tractor or a truck and yank it out of there just to make sure the brakes aren't seized or something else. Terry
PS don't pour any more MMO into the engine, it's got enough!
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:10 AM   #85
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Thank you, Terry.
It does roll in neutral. The motor is full of MMO. The emergency brake is not on. The brakes are fine.

I'm still rocking it.
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Old 08-27-2013, 07:06 PM   #86
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I've enjoyed reading your post Betsy.
I am going through the same thing currently. I have freed several engines in the past and it was a piece of cake. The model A engine I am now trying to unfreeze is in the same predicament as yours. Have always had great success with ATF-not this time. Mixed it down with gas to thin it and nodda. Today I tried the boiling coke trick and nodda. Even pulled it slowly around the yard with my pu-nodda.
My next move is to empty the pan, and overfill with diesel as Bill suggests. Then I think I will take a nap for about a month and give it a go again.
Never had one this stubborn, but going to beat it. So don't give up and give it plenty of time....
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:18 AM   #87
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Betsey, I assume you've been rocking back, in third gear? Try putting it in reverse. The idea being to turn the engine in the opposite direction. See if you can get a little motion out of the fan turning it backwards.
Terry
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:28 AM   #88
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Betsey, I assume you've been rocking back, in third gear? Try putting it in reverse. The idea being to turn the engine in the opposite direction. See if you can get a little motion out of the fan turning it backwards.
Terry
By rocking the car in high gear you get the most leverage, and by rocking back and forth the crank is forced to move both directions. Low or reverse will give the crankshaft very little force.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:29 AM   #89
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Thank you, Ronn, for your encouragement. Sorry to hear you, too, are having a stubborn motor to "unfreeze." I'll keep trying. Patience and persistence. Please report when yours comes free.

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Old 08-28-2013, 09:35 AM   #90
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Yes, Terry, I have been rocking it in third gear. So far, all that's happening is I get a lot of slosh coming from the gas tank. I'm wondering what's happening in there. I'm supposing I should remove that gas, perhaps even the gas tank to clean it out.

Okay, I'm getting away from where I need to be - the motor unlock. I think, for a change, I will put it in reverse. I'm trying everything suggested - short of sending it over a steep hill with a push. (That was meant to be a joke, only.) I'm afraid to pull it in gear. I don't want to hurt something else that might be stuck as well.

So, I'm rockin and a rollin. Sounds like something from the 50s.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:47 AM   #91
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Is the fan belt tight and when rocking it in 3rd gear is there any movement of the fan blade?

PS Also when moving my car it's easier to grab a tire at the 10 O'clock and 2 O'clock position and use that position for the rocking grip.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:34 PM   #92
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Tom is correct, reverse is too low a gear-keep it in 3rd.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:02 PM   #93
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Betsy,
I REPEAT, keep the cylinders & crankcase filled to OVERFLOWING with diesel & let'er soak for weeks! Bill W.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:07 PM   #94
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Yes, Ross, the fan belt is tight as well. It does, however give a slight back and forth motion along with the crank when I rock Betsy back and forth. Also, for the rocking motion, I am able to grasp the spare tire holder by the left door with my right hand and grasp the headlight/horn post with my left hand and rock quite briskly. The crank gives a clunk-clunk sound as it jerks with the movement. One positive note: I'm developming a good grip in my hands with this constant activity.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:09 PM   #95
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Bill, there seems to be an overflow with only one of the spark plug holes. Should I put in more? If I thought it would help, I'd drain the MMO, put in the ATF/acetone solution, and give that mixture a try. What say you?
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:24 PM   #96
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If you are getting some movement then that's encouraging. It should continue to get increased movement as rocking progresses.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:27 PM   #97
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Bill, there seems to be an overflow with only one of the spark plug holes. Should I put in more? If I thought it would help, I'd drain the MMO, put in the ATF/acetone solution, and give that mixture a try. What say you?
Yep, some cylinders will drain down because of some open valves. It's apparent that the pistons are stuck, so concentrate on keeping pouring stuff in the spark plug holes. Bill W.
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:32 PM   #98
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Bill, sounds like you need to make a "house call". LOL
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:16 PM   #99
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I am in Bismarck, and have 6 Model As. I also have built one of the tools that Tom describes. I may be able to come to Harvey sometime soon if you wish.
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:59 PM   #100
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I am in Bismarck, and have 6 Model As. I also have built one of the tools that Tom describes. I may be able to come to Harvey sometime soon if you wish.
midget thanks for offering to come to the rescue and help these people out. thats what makes this forum so good is members like you. i sure hope they take you up on your offer
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:04 PM   #101
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Tom, of course is correct! You get the greatest gear advantage in third gear and your least in reverse, but what I wondered was could the engine be turned in the opposite direction. Was something up against something that was stuck and stopping. Would it turn in the opposite direction?
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:06 PM   #102
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It would sure be nice if someone could pay her a visit and maybe help her out. I would if I were not so far,far away. Good luck with it Betsy
zz read post #99

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Old 08-28-2013, 06:46 PM   #103
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Yeah Bill, That thing is gonna smoke like hell when it finally starts. At least a quart of MMO in the manifolds and tailpipe. Mosquito killer! Let's get it cranking over first. Betsey says there's been a very little movement in the fan which kinda says maybe the pistons aren't stuck. I'm grabbing at straws, but I'm wondering if maybe it's a couple of lifters are really locked up. Or maybe the cam itself is locked (center bearing, iron on iron). The fiber cam gear would flex a little, but the cam wouldn't turn.
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Yep, some cylinders will drain down because of some open valves. It's apparent that the pistons are stuck, so concentrate on keeping pouring stuff in the spark plug holes. Bill W.
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:47 PM   #104
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Got good news! I'm excited! Not big news, but nevertheless good news!
The fan moved. I can now turn it full circle - both ways. I'm hoping that's a start.
Thanks for the idea "for someone to come and help me out." I located a relative who is interested in traveling to our home to "look at" Betsy. I'm hoping he brings his wrench set. I'll keep everyone posted. In the meantime, I'm still rockin and rollin - with a little more vigor.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:12 PM   #105
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That's great news. I knew as long as you got the fan to move any at all, it wouldn't be long until the engine goes all the way around. Hopefully you don't also have4 a bunch of stuck valves. If you do then a bent screwdriver through the spark plug holes might get them pushed back down.

I just got a Honda 2 cylinder water cooled lawn mower engine to move freely by using MMO in the cylinders.
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:14 PM   #106
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Good news! I can almost hear it running, or with all that MMO in the system, SEE it running!! lol. You're on your way !
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:20 PM   #107
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Oh Happy Day!
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:13 PM   #108
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Thanks, All, for your advice and enthusiasum.
I'm expecting to get more action - soon.
I'll let you know when the crank makes a move. Hopefully, soon.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:19 PM   #109
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midgetracer, you're welcome at our home anytime. I'd love to show you Betsy.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:38 PM   #110
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Ok I'm confused, you said the fan turns in post 104 and then in post 108
"I'll let you know when the crank makes a move"

Bob
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:37 PM   #111
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Okay, Bob C, Perhaps you can tell me what is happening.
The crank does not turn, or move, only slightly when I rock Betsy.
The fan blades now turn when I move them with my hands.
I guess I didn't make that clear with my recent post.
You see, the fan blades were stuck solid before today. Now they turn with my manual force.
I didn't mean to mislead anyone into thinking that the motor was moving, only the fan. Even that to me was a break-through as a beginning toward success.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:34 PM   #112
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As long as the crankshaft moves a little back and forth, then continued rocking should get it to slowly rotate more. That's good that you got the fan free because a stuck water pump can greatly hold back an engine if the belt is tight.
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:22 AM   #113
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Dog here,
Iffin' the starter's off, get a pry bar onto the flywheel TEETH, a LOT of pressure can be applied thet a way!
Buster T.
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:16 AM   #114
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Dog here,
Iffin' the starter's off, get a pry bar onto the flywheel TEETH, a LOT of pressure can be applied thet a way!
Buster T.
Bill, that seems like it could crack the flywheel housing. I'd be cautious about that.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:44 AM   #115
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Bill, that seems like it could crack the flywheel housing. I'd be cautious about that.
Well, Ray, The Dog & I feel that Ol' Henry made stuff "FORD-TUFF", even so, one should always be cautious, & NOT use a sledge hammer or something drastic! That thing's NOT ever going to turn by just squirtin' stuff in it & STARING at it!!
Chief always drilled a 5/8" hole in the R/F of the flywheel housing to facilitate a quick unlocking of a stuck starter bendix, with just a quick pry with a medium screwdriver. I wish I remembered the EXACT location for that hole. It was a Godsend, when you had NO help to push the car when the starter stuck, or if the car was parked where you couldn't push it, or in the middle of a MUDDY road! This trick was shown to him by his old buddy, Bill Ogan, our small town Ford Dealer in Valliant, Oklahoma! Bill W.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:21 AM   #116
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Well, Ray, The Dog & I feel that Ol' Henry made stuff "FORD-TUFF", even so, one should always be cautious, & NOT use a sledge hammer or something drastic! That thing's NOT ever going to turn by just squirtin' stuff in it & STARING at it!!
Chief always drilled a 5/8" hole in the R/F of the flywheel housing to facilitate a quick unlocking of a stuck starter bendix, with just a quick pry with a medium screwdriver. I wish I remembered the EXACT location for that hole. It was a Godsend, when you had NO help to push the car when the starter stuck, or if the car was parked where you couldn't push it, or in the middle of a MUDDY road! This trick was shown to him by his old buddy, Bill Ogan, our small town Ford Dealer in Valliant, Oklahoma! Bill W.
I like the picture!
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:30 PM   #117
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I used a combo of mystery oil and wd40.I put it in the cyls,let it sit adding more for a few days. Then tried to hand turn it.Some times it works on the first try.Most of the it takes a while.I could only spin it a fraction of turn.After a couple days I filled it up again.This time it moved a bit more.I repeated this until it could be spun a complete turn.If you get that far and try to start it beware it will smoke out your neighbors.
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Old 08-30-2013, 04:18 PM   #118
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I had roughly the same problem. I used the 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone as well. be sure to get some on the valve seats, and into the piston when you put it down the spark plug hole. I let mine sit for a few days, then lifted *one* rear tire off the ground, put the tranny in 3rd, made sure the plugs were out, and started working the tire backwards and forwards. Eventually I saw the fan blade start to move, and now she is running great. Don't give up!
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:55 PM   #119
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I see that there have been over 3500 views of this thread. I'm sure that most are viewing this as I am - as a cliffhanger. Wishing Betsy success, sooner rather than later!
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:09 PM   #120
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Thank you, to both elfox and Michael, my two most recent comers to my cheering section. Not only have I gone through a gallon of Marvel's Miracle Oil (poured into the 4 spark plug holes) but I am squirting tons (slight exaggeration) of liquid wrench wd40, and blaster on nuts and bolts for further projects of loosening Betsy's insides. The fact that the fan moves for me keeps me squirting, shaking, and rocking Betsy.
I do want to give a line of curiousity: for all the MMO I've poured into the 4 spark plug holes, one shows liquid just below the spark plug hole. The other 3 have no sign of MMO. The one hole with obvious MMO is the second from the left. Is there any significance with one cylinder/piston over another? Why do you think one of the four shows MMO and the others none? I'm curious. I'll eventually take the head off - then I'll see what's in Betsy's belly. I'm beginning to feel like a doctor. Poor Betsy is my patient. Thanks for all of your "get well" wishes.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:52 AM   #121
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I'd think the one that is not draining is the one that's stuck.

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Old 08-31-2013, 06:10 PM   #122
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The one that isn't draining could have both valves closed.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:33 PM   #123
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That piston is at or near Top Dead Center (TDC) and the others aren't. The cylinders are numbered 1 2 3 4 from Front to back.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:08 PM   #124
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

If you take the head off, years ago I got a Model T engine to move even after it was sitting outside for years with the head off. With the head off, I used a short piece of 4 x 4, inserted it in the cylinder and tapped on it with a hammer. I also used some of the type of stuff you are using to free it up. Good luck.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:07 AM   #125
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I’m new in this forum. I’m working on my first model A 1928 roadster pick up. But this is not my first stuck engine. My advice is keep going with soaking with ATF and acetone. By all means take the head off because even if you loosen up the pistons the valve train can be locked up tight as mind is. As I can see the lifters are rusted as well as the valves on their seats. To help loosen the valves, I have been spraying the sauce on top of the valve face and lightly tapping them with a brass rod (shock and awe) and hammer, I have gotten three loose this way. The lifters you will have to just keep spraying them, I do mind every couple of hours. I also found that my distributer is locked up and by all this rocking you could break the distributer drive, plus the distributer drive was locked up on my engine, “take the head off”
. As everyone in this thread has said take your time, it took me over three weeks of heating and soaking to get one cylinder off a 1970 Kawasaki H1. I’ve read a few times about putting a wood dowel in the spark plug hole and tapping with a hammer, not sure about other old ford engines, but this one the spark plug is on top of the valves, so not sure how you are going to reach the piston. Good luck!
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:45 PM   #126
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Mike, With all due respect, "Betsey" is a 72 year old woman. I advised against any disassembly (Head, Oil pan) on the grounds that it will have to be re assembled and that may be asking a lot of her. What she needs is a competent ModA mechanic to pay her a visit and adviser her.
Terry




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Im new in this forum. Im working on my first model A 1928 roadster pick up. But this is not my first stuck engine. My advice is keep going with soaking with ATF and acetone. By all means take the head off because even if you loosen up the pistons the valve train can be locked up tight as mind is. As I can see the lifters are rusted as well as the valves on their seats. To help loosen the valves, I have been spraying the sauce on top of the valve face and lightly tapping them with a brass rod (shock and awe) and hammer, I have gotten three loose this way. The lifters you will have to just keep spraying them, I do mind every couple of hours. I also found that my distributer is locked up and by all this rocking you could break the distributer drive, plus the distributer drive was locked up on my engine, take the head off
. As everyone in this thread has said take your time, it took me over three weeks of heating and soaking to get one cylinder off a 1970 Kawasaki H1. Ive read a few times about putting a wood dowel in the spark plug hole and tapping with a hammer, not sure about other old ford engines, but this one the spark plug is on top of the valves, so not sure how you are going to reach the piston. Good luck!
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:37 PM   #127
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Thank you, Triple Mike. I see a lot of value in what you are advising. Like Terry says, "I'm a 72-year-old woman." But, I'm mostly Norwegian so I don't know much about the word "can't."
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:06 PM   #128
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Need advice: a friend wants to power wash the motor. Is that a good idea?
I can push Betsy outside on a graveled driveway. He wants to blast the Motor( and all) under the hood with a power hose connected to a container of Dawn Dishsoap. If it's an okay thing to do, I'll put the spark plugs back in. I'll admit everything under the hood is coated with oil-dirt. I have been scraping it off as I go along.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:13 PM   #129
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I personally would however I'd like to hear what others have to say. If you do, put in the spark plugs, remove the plug wires/straps, put a baggie over the distributor and oil filler cap.

After you get it started there will more oil all over but but you'll start with a fresher start.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:23 PM   #130
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i am waiting on midget racer to come to the rescue
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:25 PM   #131
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I couldn't be more pleased.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:25 AM   #132
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Betsy, I pulled my head today and good thing I did. Everything is locked up-cylinders and valves.
You may have to do the same. Will take about an hour with a decent socket set.
Hopefully a local model A club or member can stop by to give you a hand....
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #133
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I went to see Betsy today and with the help of a tool of Tom's design, we had the engine turning over in a very short time (great design Tom). We could quickly spin it easily with the crank and dumped a lot of MMO from the spark plug holes. Compression is good so I am comfortable that the valves are working good. We also drained about 3/4 tank of skanky gasoline and a pan full of sludgy oil with some MMO in it. The Carb will probably be ok since the gas valve was shut off and the lines were clear. The gas valve was plugged with a molasses like sludge. The very hospitable owners bought me a fine lunch and topped it off with homemade brownies. I think we all had a wonderful day. The owner now wants to try to get it running herself, but reserves the right to keep asking for support and advise. Betsy is a sweet looking survivor pickup that means the world to her owner.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:09 PM   #134
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You fine sir are a GENTLEMAN! But I really know you just like to tinker!!
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:26 PM   #135
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Good job midget racer, and what fine neighbor! I'm glad Betsy had your help and is making progress.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:50 PM   #136
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I have been lurking in the background watching this thread with much anticipation. Please keep us informed of your progress.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:19 PM   #137
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That's great news.
I can't take credit for the tool design though because I saw someone had made one and it was posted on Jim Mason's website. As soon as I saw it I knew I had to use a couple broken starter parts I had laying around, and make my own.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:27 PM   #138
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Can't thank midgetracer enough for traveling all that way to help Betsy. I gained a new respect for the talent of mechanical work. It was an exciting event just watching an expert take charge of loosening Betsy's motor. What excitement! I couldn't believe my eyes as I watched the crank turn and MMO flying everywhere. I guess the only thing I can equate the feeling to was watching my first grandchild be born. I know "this is not the end, it is the end of the beginning." I am sooooo appreciative of all the concerns, suggestions, and encouragement that brought me to today's charm. I must say, I truly respect a man who steps up to a challenge, and succeeds. You truly are my "rescuer" midgetracer. You have a true gift! God Bless!!! I do realize that my work has just begun, but with your advice and instructions, I'll be able to surge on.
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Old 09-05-2013, 02:21 AM   #139
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kudos midget racer....gooood job
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:33 AM   #140
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migetracer, thanks for picking up the torch and running with it. You sure made Betsy and her owner happy.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:33 AM   #141
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Way to go Midgetracer! It's a fine thing you did for a nice lady, her A and yourself.
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:51 PM   #142
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We haven't heard anything in a couple of weeks. Is there any progress being made since the motor seems to be turning over a little?
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:30 PM   #143
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Funny you should mention that, because I was going to ask the same thing last night, but got sidetracked and forgot.

I was wondering if all the valves are unstuck, so all cylinders have compression.
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:45 PM   #144
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Hi All,
Betsy here. Just a little update. I took some time off - poked myself in the eye cleaning out the lilac bushes. Next time someone offers protective eyewear I'm using it. Now, back to Betsy. Since midgetracer turned the motor over for me, I take delight in turning the crank everytime I come and go from Betsy's garage. I soaked the gas valve in carborator cleaner and reinstaled the gas line. Cleaned out the gas tank with that same type of cleaner. I have water/antifreeze for 37 degrees below, and put fresh oil in the motor. Now then, I'm having a bit of trouble lining up the starter for a remount. I cleaned the starter (on the outside) and put it into place. My problem - can't get the bolts to go in. So, I'm soaking them in carborator cleaner over night. I'll go back to trying again tomorrow. My, that starter is heavy! My husband tried to help as well. Neither of us could get those bolts to enter the hole for it. I'll clean bolts and the mount well tomorrow before trying again. Hey, I'm getting closer to putting in a new battery, new spark plugs, and giving the starter a try. Wish me luck! Betsy
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:30 PM   #145
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Please make sure you put the starter bolts back into the same spots they came out of. If you use the longer starter bolts in the wrong holes it may jamb into the flywheel. Common mistake often made.
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:38 AM   #146
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Aaaahhh! So that's why there was an almightly clunketty cklunk noise from my bell-housing when I drove my restored A for the first time. It scared the bejaysus out of me! I was all set to start dismantling things when the noise just went away and never recurred and that was about 20,000 trouble-free miles ago. So what did I break off that didn't matter? I have wondered about that ever since!
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:45 AM   #147
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I would suggest running the bolt in and out of their holes without the starter until they do it smoothly. How freely does the motor turn over?
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:51 AM   #148
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Thanks for that important suggestion, modela@aol.com, I will sure compare the three of them more closely. They look alike, but there must be something different about them. I didn't pay attention to difference in the bolts when they were removed assuming they were alike. Thank you, too, Ross/Kzoo, I will do that too. The crank moves ever so smooth. It has a free flow, but with some resistance. I'll be putting the bolts into the starter today. And, I'll follow these suggestions given. Betsy
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:52 AM   #149
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Thank you, Mad Mac, for sharing your experience. I'm hoping for no noise (only the sweet sound of Betsy's motor) when I put the starter back in. Wish me luck.

Last edited by BetsyModelA; 09-27-2013 at 07:54 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:37 PM   #150
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

The engine turns over real smooth. There is plenty compression for a startup based on the "thumb over the spark plug hole" test. I think a startup is in the near future. Hang in there Betsy Model A.
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Old 09-28-2013, 03:19 PM   #151
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

My husband and I mounted the starter today. After having soaked the three bolts for 24 hours in carburator cleaner, wiping them clean, doing a practice entrance, seeing which one fit best where, Lynn held the starter in place while I put the first and closest bolt into place, the other two were a piece of cake. I finished that part by connecting the starter foot pedal. Next week, I'm taking my old battery in, have it tested, then replace it with a new one. Next, I'll get some new sparkplugs. Lastly, I'll buy some new gasolene. I'll be driving Betsy before long. Special thanks to midgetracer, my backup expert for Betsy.
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Old 09-28-2013, 04:17 PM   #152
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

You want to put the shortest bolt in the hole closest to the block. Turn your engine over with the crank after mounting the starter to make sure that back bolt isn't locking up your flywheel. The engine should turn over with the same resistance as when the starter was not installed.
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:10 PM   #153
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I've been lucky----didn't notice the difference. Now I will have to pull the bolts to see.
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:11 PM   #154
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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I've been lucky----didn't notice the difference. Now I will have to pull the bolts to see.
Most of us has done that at least once. LOL
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:05 PM   #155
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Thanks guys. I was forwarned of putting the wrong bolt in the wrong place and hitting the fly wheel. In checking the bolts they look as though they were all the same size. Reluctantly I put them in, and then turned the crank thinking I'd hear a noise, none came. I was much releaved. Perhaps, some Model As have different sizes, then I see there could be a problem if not assembled correctly. Mine was easy! Betsy lucked out!
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:47 PM   #156
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Unless someone changed the mounting bolts, all 3 should be the same, 3/8" x 1" with a lock washer under each.
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Old 09-29-2013, 12:29 AM   #157
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

That's interesting, Tom. I don't remember ever working on an A where one bolt wasn't shorter than the other two. But it could be I wasn't paying close attention until somebody warned me about it.
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Old 09-29-2013, 03:36 PM   #158
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Tom, I concur. The 3 bolts appeared to be the same size with a lock washer.
Upon being warned of different size bolts, After inserting them, I turned the crank, gently, and listened for a possible cklunk or metal on metal, but it didn't happen. Whew!
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:11 AM   #159
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

An update for those interested in Betsy: got new spark plugs, took out the old battery anticpating puttin in the new one. I'm in the process of taking out the current battery box that's rusted through. Ordered a "new" one. The nuts and bolts are rusted tight. Have sprayed penetrating oil on them, leaving them sit a few days, then I'll try a good socket set on them. Wish me luck in the switch. BetsyModelA
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:47 AM   #160
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I have dealt with a few 'stuck' old engines and the only thing I would advise is drop the pan and loosen or remove the bearing caps. A couple of the engines would have been good engines if I hadn't just forced it to turn over=the bearings and crank had worked on each other to keep it from turning. If you open it up and the bearings and journals are OK you might have saved a good engine. Than you work on the pistons.
GOOD LUCK!
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Old 10-05-2013, 12:45 PM   #161
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Hi Partridgekelley, nice to have your advice and well-wishes for Betsy. Thank goodness, the motor has become unstuck. An earlier entry referring to midgetracer, who actually came with his socket set and a "Tom's Tool" and unstuck the motor for me. I should probably start a new thread for Betsy to tell of my progress and woes. But, I've just continued on from whence we started. I have received a lot of good info regarding getting "unfroze." The "Tom's Tool" did it especially after a lot of MMO.
Best regards, from Betsy
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:37 PM   #162
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Yes, if you could start a new thread and maybe title it "Model A motor WAS froze-up"
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:01 PM   #163
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Thank you, Ross/Kzoo, that sounds like a good idea. I'll try to start a new thread.
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #164
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

For the life of me, I can't get a couple of rusted nuts to come off. I need to get them out of the frame that they are in so I can put a different battery box in that spot. All of my penetrating oils/sprays aren't working. Getting very dishearted! I can see that winter is coming on. Wanted to have Betsy running before snow flies. Someone suggested torching them off. I'm afraid of a fire.
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Old 10-19-2013, 02:41 PM   #165
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

You might be able to heat them enough with a small propane torch, but an oxy/acc torch would be the real ticket. Are there any local gear heads that could help?

My dad often used a hammer and chisel to split the nut. Set the chisel blade parallel to the bolt and in the center of the flat, then hammer away until the nut splits. Best to use a chisel guard or chisel holder to avoid smashing your hand, as I did the other day while trying to remove a tire from a rim.
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Old 10-19-2013, 04:04 PM   #166
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

If you have reasonable access to the nuts you may be able get a Dremel cut off wheel in there to either split the nut or enough to get the chisel in there like Tom said.
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:13 PM   #167
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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If you have reasonable access to the nuts you may be able get a Dremel cut off wheel in there to either split the nut or enough to get the chisel in there like Tom said.
Was also going to suggest this. The Dremel tool has worked well for my in a number of occasions. Harbor Freight, I think, has a copy of one that is reasonable.
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:25 PM   #168
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

If you need a Dremel I prefer the real deal rather than something from China. I've purchased a few Dremels on ebay with the box and accessories for $20 to $40.
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:45 PM   #169
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

It might sound crazy but I had a 40 ford once that had very rusty nuts and bolts that had to come off. When I tried to loosen them, they would either strip or sometimes break, which I was happy with. And then I got the idea to just tighten the crap out of them, and sure enough they just broke off. So the rest I just tighten and snapped them all off. Not saying yours would do this, but maybe worth a try. Good luck with it.
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:02 PM   #170
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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If you need a Dremel I prefer the real deal rather than something from China. I've purchased a few Dremels on ebay with the box and accessories for $20 to $40.
Is Dremel made in America?
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:37 PM   #171
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

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Is Dremel made in America?
My older Dremel model 270 is. I haven't bought any of the newer models, so I can't speak for those.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:27 PM   #172
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

There is a tool called a nut splitter. It fits over the nut, and you tighten a screw that forces a blade into the side of the nut and splits it. Google nut splitter. Works good.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:43 PM   #173
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I have a nut splitter that works fine the problem is the unruly size of the tool makes it hard in tight spots but does work, Dremel works great also but the disc's are rather spendy. I like the idea of twisting them off and one other way if you have a stick welder you can short the bolt using 75 amps. Before you turn on the welder get a good ground then clamp the hot end to the bolt or nut in question and turn it on and you will have to be the judge as to the time on shut it off and turn the bolt or nut loose, this is the same principle used to un freeze pipes. When all is said and done I like Kroil, squirt it on and hit the bolt or nut hard with a dead blow and wait a day.
I used to play with tractors and found the best way to un stick a motor is to fill the cyl with brake fluid mixed with kero, take an Oak 4x4 and grind it round put it in a cyl and at the same time use a large iron bar with a socket on the crank with a couple friends putting constant pressure on it while you move the log from one cyl to the next, have yet to bend a rod or crack a piston.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:25 PM   #174
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Are they spinning or is it you don't have the strength to turn them. (No disrespect ma'am) They're just nuts and bolts. Do as others have said and tighten them til they break off. You should be using at least one socket wrench for the leverage end. You may have to use a pipe over the handle to get more leverage--longer the better. Replacement nuts/bolts can be had at any hardware store. Wear some gloves because when they break your knuckles might also. lol Hang in there. You'll get it. I hope they're making the replacement battery box better than they used to. Holes didn't line up on mine.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:07 AM   #175
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Thank you, one and all, for your interest, excellent suggestions, and encouragment. Once again, my mechanical hero, midgetracer, is coming - quite a distance - to not just remove those stubborn nuts, but also, to start Betsy. The snow is beginning to threaten us here in ND. He is as enthused about getting Betsy started as I am. I'll continue to keep you in-the-know. Thank you again. Betsy
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:09 AM   #176
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

That's good news, as I'm also anxious to hear that it's running.
Don't throw away the old battery frame, as it might be better to use the mounts and uprights with a new bottom.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:16 PM   #177
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Tom, Good advice. I am keeping all the parts okay. Like Rusty's concern for the holes not lining up right, I'm holding my breathe to see what else can go wrong. Hopefully, my next entry will be full of happy news.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:34 PM   #178
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I apologize, Rusty. I neglected to answer your question about the nut that won't come off. You asked if it spins. Actually, I have two nuts to remove, one 1/2 inch bolt with a 1/2 nut on the underside of the pickup frame. The bolt turns with the attached nut holding steadfast turning with it. I need to remove that one so it is easier to get at the one that has to come off in order to remove the broken battery box. That is a 9/16 nut attached solid to a bolt. It looks like this side of the battery box has a long (about 2 inches long) bolt on top going through the frame of the pickup to about an inch on the underside. I believe if I remove that 9/16 nut, the bolt will come out of its hole, allowing me to remove that side of the battery box. I removed the broken left-front corner part of the old box. This troublesome one is the right-back part. This battery box is not a "box" at all. Rather it has a u shape with four sided metal strips holding the battery in place. This "box" is fastened down at the top of each tip of the u. Wished I had a picture of it. "Worth a thouand words."
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Old 10-26-2013, 04:17 PM   #179
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

"Betsy is Alive!!!" These are the very words of Betsy's miracle-worker, midgetracer.
Today, is a day I'm marking on the calendar as the day Betsy came back to life.
Yes, she poured out billows of smoke as the motor turned over, the starter engaged, and with a flow of gasoline for her life-blood Betsy hummed the sound that only a Model A can give. She sang her song loud and clear so happy to be running again.
Just goes to show, we have experts available at all ages, in all walks of life, ready to share their talents and appreciation of the classical auto giving of themselves just for the joy of it. Midgetracer had a few challenges in today's success, but a few hurdles didn't deter his mission. My deepest gratitude in sticking in there with me, and Betsy. May others with similar challenges reap the sweet reward we are enjoying today. I still remember how to work the clutch.
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Old 10-26-2013, 04:25 PM   #180
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

thats fabulous news enjoy that music .
thankyou again midgetracer its people like you that make this hobby great.. job well done
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:12 PM   #181
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Congratulations to you and a special thanks to midgetracer for sticking with the project to completion/starting. It's people like midgetracer that make this hobby so worth it.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:48 PM   #182
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Congrats Betsy
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:20 PM   #183
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Thank you, Ross/Kzoo, for staying in there for Betsy with your advice and encouragement. I've gained a lot of knowledge about "how to," and much respect for the mechanics' world.
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:23 PM   #184
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Thank you, SkimmerBob. Can't believe how far Betsy has come just within the past couple months - thanks to midgetracer.
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:59 PM   #185
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Way to go midgetracer
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:30 AM   #186
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Congratulations to Betsy!!! Enjoy that music!

Kudos to midgetracer. Seems he earned some angel wings for his Motometer!
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:00 PM   #187
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It's people like midgetracer that make this hobby so worth it.
+1

Just came across this today and have read with interest...

Glad to hear the operation was a success doctors.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:43 PM   #188
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Thank you for your comment, bogiediver. Appreciate your addition to this site, especially your encouragment for my "doctors." I've had contact with some of the Very Best!
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:32 AM   #189
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For those who have been following Betsy's progress, I am happy to announce that I was able to start, drive and enjoy a ride in Betsy last Saturday. It was a thrill. With the help and suggestions of so many of you, it happened, and how sweet it is! A special thank you to midgetracer and his selfless contribution with mechanical knowhow and encouragement. Now that Betsy runs, I will concentrate on sprucing her up to looking her best. That'll have to wait until spring. Betsy thanks you all.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:03 AM   #190
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Dog here, Well, I'm glad thet thing is FINALLY runnin' Ol' Bill's read this WHOLE thread to me, about 17 or 19??? TIMES ALL 189 POSTS UF IT
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:54 AM   #191
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Thank you, Dog, for being a faithful, interested reader with me. At 72, I am now finding a new passion. I'd like to learn more about Betsy - electrical, wiring, gaskets, and more. I guess there is no end to what I don't, but need, to know about this "nuts and bolts" marvel. I'm setting Betsy in for a winter rest, will start again in the spring. ND can get rather cold for fixing.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:20 PM   #192
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I thought I'd seen a picture of this frozen A, but I can't find it. Could you post one, or direct me to where I could see one?

Be sure to turn the engine over a few times this winter to keep it moving (no need to start it, just circulate some oil), and drain the water so it doesn't really freeze up. You'll probably get other theories on winter storage, but this I what I do, and have done for 50 years, whenever I've had to leave a car over the winter. Now I just drive 'em all the time.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:49 PM   #193
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

I can't remember if you put anti freeze in it or not but make sure that there is no water in your A. Glad to see the progress that you've made.
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:43 PM   #194
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Hi Betsy! I was away for the whole month of Sept and when I got back, my password no longer worked (Go figure) Anyway, I wondered how you were making out. I'm glad to hear that you got it stated (Taa Daa) Now the next job, cleaning all the MMO and other stuff out of there. Don't discard it yet, you'll have a lot more stuff that's stuck and getting all the rusty joints and sliding parts working again. One place you'll probably need freeing up are the end of the linkage rods (3). Drain and replace all fluids. Trans and rear oil are called 600w. Keep posting as you make progress.
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:53 PM   #195
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I have un stuck many engines including Model A's I remove pluggs fill with diesel fuel leave set for a long time checxking making sure it stays full after setting a couple mounths open hood so you can see fan get a couple friends to help you rock car in high gear keep an eye on fan it will brake lose if you are in a hurry remove starter so you can pry up and down on flywheel it will go only a little at a time you change oil and see how it runs
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:34 PM   #196
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I have un stuck many engines including Model A's I remove pluggs fill with diesel fuel leave set for a long time checxking making sure it stays full after setting a couple mounths open hood so you can see fan get a couple friends to help you rock car in high gear keep an eye on fan it will brake lose if you are in a hurry remove starter so you can pry up and down on flywheel it will go only a little at a time you change oil and see how it runs
Jackson, I suggested way back in the thread, to keep it FULL of DIESEL & let it soak, A LOOONG time!! But, NOBODY paid NO attention!! I even told them that Chief & I freed a Model A motor on an OOOOOLD arc welder that had been stored outside for at least 30 YEARS
Seems everybody thinks them "MAGIC" POTIONS will free up anything!! Chief called most penetrants, "PANTHER-PI**" Bill W.
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:58 PM   #197
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

Bill, she doesn't want to wait 30 years for the diesel to work!

Oh, wait, it was stored for 30 years. LOL
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Old 12-02-2013, 05:12 PM   #198
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Bill, she doesn't want to wait 30 years for the diesel to work!

Oh, wait, it was stored for 30 years. LOL
DON'T git WISE, Kzoo, Ol' Bill'l drive back there & KNOCK yer "BLOCK" off!! (He jist got his Driver's license re-nued today!!!!! He only missed 1 question, Gregg missed 2) Cain't wait to see his new pic, with LOOONG hair & his scruffy BEARD Buster T.
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:10 PM   #199
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Bill, With all due respect, The diesel would work, b ut.... We/I thought that changing the method in midstream, would be not really effective and messy. Gallons of oil and diesel to be gotten rid of later. It might have been to much for a 72 YO lady to cope with.
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Jackson, I suggested way back in the thread, to keep it FULL of DIESEL & let it soak, A LOOONG time!! But, NOBODY paid NO attention!! I even told them that Chief & I freed a Model A motor on an OOOOOLD arc welder that had been stored outside for at least 30 YEARS
Seems everybody thinks them "MAGIC" POTIONS will free up anything!! Chief called most penetrants, "PANTHER-PI**" Bill W.
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Old 12-02-2013, 07:37 PM   #200
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Sorry if I missed your entry, Bill. Often times, when I got a new suggestion I'd run out and try it without responding. My apologies. I soaked the motor with diesel last winter. Then rocked Betsy with a bunch of MMO. What loosed the motor for me was a tool, called Tom's Tool, made out of parts from an old starter used to force the motor to turn. It worked like a charm. Anyway, I see that I need to drain the water out of the radiator. Also, not sure about the oil, should I drain that too? Too much to learn, and so little time. And, worst of all, no warm weather. Snowed 5 inches lately, without the chains I used to have, I'll leave Betsy inside until spring. Someone mentioned to turn the motor over from time to time. I think that would be a good idea. Suppose I need vital fluids in place to do that. Do I sound confused? I'll get it all together one of these days. Thanks for your help - All.
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Old 12-02-2013, 07:40 PM   #201
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Drain the water or add anti-freeze, but I'd recommend the draining. No need to drain the oil, but a good idea to replace it with new fresh oil before storing for the winter. After you do this, turn the engine over a few times to splash the oil around (don't have to start it). Also pour a couple tablespoons down each spark plug hole. Put the plugs back in. Put a note on your windshield reminding yourself that the car has no water in it. It's easy to forget come springtime when you're anxious for your first drive.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:30 PM   #202
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Bill, With all due respect, The diesel would work, b ut.... We/I thought that changing the method in midstream, would be not really effective and messy. Gallons of oil and diesel to be gotten rid of later. It might have been to much for a 72 YO lady to cope with.
Terry
Terry & Betsy, No big deal, I wuz jist RATTLIN'
Sometimes, it's good to hear folks response to an idea, like, "Good Idea"---"Bad Idea"---or, "Blah-Blah," might work better?? This is how we learn NEW stuff sometimes. I DON'T know EVERYTHING, either (The dumb DOG is LAFFING, uncontrollably----"O.K, Fido, you sleep in the FLOOR tonite!) I've created a MONSTER Bill W.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:28 AM   #203
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700rpm, just a note to encourage you to see a picture of Betsy on her home page of BetsyModelA. This pic was taken last year when she was towed from one location of storage to a closer shed so I could work on her. She no longer needs to be towed!
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:31 AM   #204
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I love your humor, Bill. You have a refreshing way of putting things. All my best!
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:20 PM   #205
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Well Bill Like you I have done many engines that were stuck never used anything but diesel and time I had a friend thast used brake fluid and swore by it being better . after I get them running with new oil in them I might run Kroil in carb as it runs to lube valves I have taken pligs out and taped a stuck vale down . You can do it the easy way or the hard way. Later
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:51 PM   #206
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Hi all, just finished reading all 205 post. I have a stuck A eng also.
The good is my head is off the bad is I have tried all of the different things, to no avail. The #4 cyl leaks down over night,so that is encouraging. I have a bar on the fly wheel and all I have done is break a pressure plate bolt,when I hit the bar with a hammer. I'm keeping #4 full so the fluid is going to the pan.
Another bad is the eng is out of the car. If I haven't gotten some movement by next w/e I will turn it over, take the pan off and use a liquid on the bottom of the pistons.
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:55 PM   #207
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Default Re: Model A motor froze-up

After treating all cylinders with whatever you use, you may want to take a short piece of 4x4 and after putting it in each cylinder, tap, and I did say tap it lightly. Do this a number of times over a period of time, and you may get them to move. Then again they may not. When I had my engine rebuilt, the rebuilder had to break the pistons to get them out. (sorry about this comment by that may be where you are at)
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:37 PM   #208
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Fred I've tried that. I still think a little more time with the block of wood, and keeping the top of the piston covered with kerosene, lacquer thinner, and trans fluid, something will give. Going to give it another week before I turn the eng upside down.
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:03 PM   #209
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All this is good advice. But if you don't drop the pan and the bearing caps ,you could waste a good set of bearings and journals on the crank.
If you can get the pistons free and it does turn over , I'd still check the insides. If a piston /rings stuck the crank could have the same stuff going on. Good Luck Gary
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:19 PM   #210
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PK, that is exactally what will happen. Since the eng is out of the frame it makes it more difficult. I have a gasket set, and will take it apart just to see what is going on.I think by this time next week it will be turning.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:48 PM   #211
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48fordnut, I empathize. I know the frustration of trying everything, and getting nowhere. Do keep us posted as to what works for you - and something will. Patience was the best advice I was given - don't give up. Turning the motor over is sweet success when it happens - and it will. Betsy sends her best.
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:24 AM   #212
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Morning all,
Well the saga continues. It started with #4 cyl ,with fluid in the tops of all cyl, when I went out and uncovered the eng fluid had leaked down in #4. Well ,I kept on with the light tap with the hammer till, it was #3, then finally #2. Now that #1 is being a bit stubborn. I have a 1 7/16 socket on the ft nut ,but can't get any leverage.
Bit cold this am, but will go thru the ritual in a few minuites. Will keep you posted.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:17 AM   #213
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We love to hear of your progress!
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:13 AM   #214
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Merry Christmas to all, and boy did I find a present this am. I am now able to make a 1/4 revolution on the eng. More patience and diesel fuel and it will be a complete turn. Victory.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:16 AM   #215
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Congratulations! Christmas came a little early for you. It should be easy to turn over soon.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:08 PM   #216
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Good for you! I know the feeling!
Do keep us in the know as you progress.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:57 PM   #217
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Don't forget to use penetrant on the valves and lifters. A stuck valve or lifter will only allow the engine to turn so far. When the cam lobe reaches the stuck lifter it will quit turning. Good luck you are well on the way.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:07 PM   #218
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I knew patience would pay off. Today it turns and very smooth. I will be putting it on a stand and removing the pan and all internals.
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:44 PM   #219
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About a quart of oil or more remains in the dipper tray after the oil is drained. When you get the engine on the stand, remove the oil pan while the engine is right side up or you will have an oily mess. Just a thought, You probably already know this.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:49 PM   #220
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