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Old 08-15-2019, 10:26 PM   #21
Bored&Stroked
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

All the lubrication for the lifters, the lifter bores and the cam in general comes from oil being splashed or slung off the crankshaft. There is no oil being fed to the lifters. And yes, there are various folks who have drilled pressurized overhead lifters to feed oil to the cam - and there are roller lifters where pressurized oil is fed to the roller bearings . . . just no such concept in our flatheads.

Now, if you wanted to plumb the lifter bores for oil pressure and then build custom lifters to capture that pressure and feed it to the cam - can surely be done . . . but for what real purpose? At 65 - 85 lbs of spring pressure (on the seat) there isn't much use for it. BUT, if you can imagine it . . . it can be done . . . and if it makes your happy, I say go for it!

On our Flathead Cadillac Bonneville engine, we have full pressure to our custom lifter blocks and we feed the oil pressure to our roller lifters (which we made). The cam lifts .520, so having more oil for the rollers makes us sleep a bit better at night.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Frank, Please do not take offence, but I think you're overthinking a perceived problem. Before you get all carried away, ask on here if anyone has actually destroyed the lobes on a flathead. You say you've heard of this; where is the proof? By the way, ALL flatheads run hot, everyone knows that too! Not true, but seems to be a popular misconception.


You mention keeping components as light as possible; I too agree, and incorporate that concept as much as possible with my builds.However, it is my opinion, that if you beef up the spring pressure, this is exactly the same as adding extra weight to the valve assemblies. Many pounds of weight....
I use stock valve springs; the ones that are progressively wound, and find them more than adequate up to 6000 RPM.
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Last edited by Brian; 08-16-2019 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:07 AM   #23
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Frank, Is this proposed Schneider 250F cam to go into your 37 block, and fitted into your 35 truck? With the heads modified to take 14 mm plugs? Or are you building another fire breathing monster?
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:09 AM   #24
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

I run LZ springs maybe a bit much for a reground cam. Seems to be good so far. I have a fiber timing gear too. Keeping my fingers crossed.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...prings.507288/


Drilling the valley valve bosses are to adjust adjustable lifters more easily. not for oil. If we are talking about the same thing....

My 221 has drilled bosses for easy lifter adjustment. Guess oil goes down there too from the valley also.


Less you have a extremely hot motor, you wont ever float a valve. Just my opinion.

.

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Old 08-16-2019, 07:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Here is some data on spring pressures - that I compiled via my own tests . . . will give you some ideas on options:

Flathead Spring Pressures
Author: Dale Hays, Vintage Horsepower, daleohays@gmail.com
Date: 08/14/2019

The following was done with a hydraulic spring tester – have used it for quite a few years and it is quite accurate (until you get below about 50 PSI).

1. Isky 185G – Single Spring (new)

• 110# @ 1.900
• 100# @ 1.950
• 85# @ 2.00

2. Isky 185G- Single Spring (used)

• 180# @ 1.605
• 82# @ 2.00
• 50# @ 2.125

3. Iaky Dual Valve Springs (I don't use them on anything)

• 80# @ 1.765
• 180# @ 1.390

4. Ford 49-53 – 0BA-6513 (from Mac VanPelt)

• 60# @ 2.00
• 45# @ 2.125

5. Lincoln Zephyr – 86H-6513 (from Mac VanPelt)

• 82# @ 2.00
• 55# @ 2.125

So - if I was going to put say a .375 Potvin 3/8 cam in a street engine, I think I'd use the LZ springs from Mac and I'd install them at 2.0625 . . . should give me about 65 lbs on the seat. So there yah have it . . . . one more opinion to add to the mess! LOL
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:41 AM   #26
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Personally, I have never seen or heard of a flathead cam having a lobe wiped.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Thanks B&S, I was wondering what springs to use on the race engines, At one time I got LZ springs from JWL,but he's out of them. Also some LZ springs are mis- labeled stock springs. I measure the spring pressure at installed height And a .060 spacer works great on the stock long spring.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:32 AM   #28
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked View Post
Here is some data on spring pressures - that I compiled via my own tests . . . will give you some ideas on options:

Flathead Spring Pressures
Author: Dale Hays, Vintage Horsepower, daleohays@gmail.com
Date: 08/14/2019

The following was done with a hydraulic spring tester have used it for quite a few years and it is quite accurate (until you get below about 50 PSI).

1. Isky 185G Single Spring (new)

110# @ 1.900
100# @ 1.950
85# @ 2.00

2. Isky 185G- Single Spring (used)

180# @ 1.605
82# @ 2.00
50# @ 2.125

3. Iaky Dual Valve Springs (I don't use them on anything)

80# @ 1.765
180# @ 1.390

4. Ford 49-53 0BA-6513 (from Mac VanPelt)

60# @ 2.00
45# @ 2.125

5. Lincoln Zephyr 86H-6513 (from Mac VanPelt)

82# @ 2.00
55# @ 2.125

So - if I was going to put say a .375 Potvin 3/8 cam in a street engine, I think I'd use the LZ springs from Mac and I'd install them at 2.0625 . . . should give me about 65 lbs on the seat. So there yah have it . . . . one more opinion to add to the mess! LOL

Interesting how the stock v. LZ @ 2.125" is a 10 lb difference, yet at 2.00", the difference is 22 lbs.
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:04 PM   #29
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatjack9 View Post
Personally, I have never seen or heard of a flathead cam having a lobe wiped.
Im with flatjack. I have not seen or heard of this happening to a flathead cam stock or a hot rod cam.
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Old 08-16-2019, 03:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Maybe folks are confusing not requiring high valve spring pressure with can't have high valve spring pressure? Flathead era camshafts should be as good as or better material than more modern cams and new flathead camshaft blanks would be the same as any other new blank I would think.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:00 PM   #31
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

So just to let all know when I buy brand new Cam cores to grind to KiWi-L100 specs they come from the same company that has made “ALL” OEM cams for many many years so please don’t think flathead cams are an oddball.
Cheers
Tony
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:08 PM   #32
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by frnkeore View Post
One more question, related to this issue:

Does anyone drill the hollow lifters to lube the cam lobes? If so, what size do they make the hole?

Frank
Do NOT drill a lifter that runs on a performance cam. It will shorten the life of both the cam and lifter. I am not sure why but I have seen several over the years that tried and failed and I have been in the cam business 65 years.

You do not to need pressure oiling to the lobes or lifters on a flathead street engine.
On my race engines, I drill the cam core and lobes for pressure because these engines have dry sump oiling with high vacuum in the crankcase. This tends to suck oil off of all internal surfaces that are not pressure fed.

After market cast iron cam cores for flathead Fords are very poor quality.
The hardness varies down the length. They work for the most part but they are still junk quality. (Do not send me any to grind)

Valve spring pressures are not critical on flathead street engines with cams lifting under .380. Anything between 60 and 80 on the seat will have a 6000 red line and NOT wear anything out prematurely, and that is with no titanium valves or lightweight stock steel lifters.

I have seen quite a few wiped out lobes on flathead Ford cams over the years but they have usually been the result of broken springs or stuck valves, NOT from normal wear.

Hollow lifters DO run with oil inside on a wet sump engine. No additional holes needed in the lifter bore for oiling.

If you REALLY have to know what is going on with your valve train, leave the intake manifold OFF, hook the engine up to a variable speed electric motor and run it from idle to where the valves float while observing things with a strobotach. You will have to pre-educate yourself on exactly what to look for.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:17 PM   #33
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
Interesting how the stock v. LZ @ 2.125" is a 10 lb difference, yet at 2.00", the difference is 22 lbs.
That is because the 'spring rate' is different . . .
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:43 PM   #34
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Pete, I have a question. Does the poor quality blanks apply to all aftermarket cams or just to the flathead cams?
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:47 PM   #35
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Pete, I have a question. Does the poor quality blanks apply to all aftermarket cams or just to the flathead cams?
It completely depends on where they were cast and/or roughed out.

I have seen some very poor quality cast blanks from one of the big manufacturer's . . . who supplies a TON of product to the various flathead cam grinders. Hardness is totally inconsistent and one would surely question the quality of the core materials.

I won't name names . . . but just think about the biggest name you see for high volume cams on a budget . . .

Me - I'd take a regrind on a Henry core over any of the new production cores . . .
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Pete, I have a question. Does the poor quality blanks apply to all aftermarket cams or just to the flathead cams?
I don't know. I only do flathead Fords now.
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Old 08-17-2019, 08:15 AM   #37
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Thanks, just curious.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:19 AM   #38
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

Thank you for the insight, Pete. I guess I'll by past the drilled lifter idea.

But, I have a question regarding valve oiling. I assume that because the FH valve is vertical, that with a good fit .001/.0015 in, .002/.0025 ex, that it wouldn't need valve stem seals?

The retainers that I buy, come with seals and 10* keepers so, if there is any benefit to running seals, I can add them.

I'm still planing on using 1.25 sbc springs, after researching yesterday, I found that the standard passenger car spring, closed, will be ~80 lb @ 1.75 and ~180, at 1.375. I can adjust the pressure a little after I test a set.

If you guys are wondering why I'm always re-inventing the wheel, it only because I love doing it and in this case (springs) it's about 1/4 the cost of Isky/LZ springs and retainers. The cost of the guilds is 0.00.

Frank

Added:
To answer B&S's question on page 1, I'm using 1.5 sbc ex and 1.6 in. Probably don't need the 1.6 but, I have them on hand.

Last edited by frnkeore; 08-17-2019 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 01:20 PM   #39
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

"But, I have a question regarding valve oiling. I assume that because the FH valve is vertical, that with a good fit .001/.0015 in, .002/.0025 ex, that it wouldn't need valve stem seals?"

I have never used seals and never had excess oiling problems. I use solid bronze guides pressed in the block.
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:02 PM   #40
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Default Re: FH Valve Springs

The bronze guides are almost a mandatory item with us on all our FH builds, but we've never needed any 1-pc all bronze guides, we simply line the originals and machine them (intakes only) for some Viton stem seals. Not needed on the exhausts.

Here's another situation where the much longer Chevy valves create installed spring hgt issues. Been down this road more than 45 years now and have never used the longer valves. Really unnecessary?

With respect to the valve springs, the OEM pieces we supply to most customers yield 70# @ 2.060" with 130# at .375" lifts.

For some slightly higher performance builds we use the 185G's, these yield 85# @ 2.060" with 180# @ .375" lifts.

Most "streeter's" are fine with the lighter springs, they will take you to the 5000 RPM area easily.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a couple shots (again) of the bronze-lined guides, S/S valves, and seals. Also a shot of our very own design "adjustable" spring-seat hgt locators, allows the the use of up to (5) .060" shims plus the locator thickness (.060") and is still able to locate the springs!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Flathead Bronze Guides-Seals-Valves.JPG (76.0 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg Flathead Spring Locator Pkge-1999 B.JPG (81.6 KB, 20 views)
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