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Old 03-05-2019, 12:15 AM   #1
daveymc29
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Default Mystery starting problem (or not)

So, the Ace mechanic has been at it again. Put air into my 31 coupe. That required converting to 12V. (Neg. grnd.) Then I found that when I wanted to start the car I most times got my foot wedged between the starter button, gas peddle and the evaporator unit. So, I decided that was not a good thing, went to the auto parts house and bought a mid 60s mustang starter solenoid and withdrew the starter switch from the top of the starter, turned the inside of it upside down and ran one side of the solenoid through that part and put ot all back onto the starter motor and wired it up with the fuse holder providing the power and the other side of the solenoid wired to a remote spring loaded toggle switch providing a ground when pressed. Hooked the positive lead from the battery to the solenoid and gave it a test. Engine immediately came to life and there I was driving like I knew what I was doing. The installation even looked good and if someone wants to post a picture for me, sent me your email in a PM and I'll send you a picture to post.

But there turned out to be more to this story and this is the part that stumps me. I drove for 2 or three months with no problems. Than about two weeks ago I was on my way home from working on a AA for the City of Dublin when I shifted into overdrive (B/W) and tripped the switch to activate the solenoid on the O/D, Dead in the water and rolled quietly to the side of the parkway. I had some tools in a shoebox so I whipped out my test light and started looking for hot wire. There wasn't a wire that lit the test light. I don't remember trying the positive from the battery, but all the wires I could reach other than that one were dead. No spark at the points, coil either side nor at the alternator. Clicking the starter switch just made a clicking noise and both sides of it were dead. As I sat there wondering, I gave it one more check and everything was powered up again. The circuit breaker (30A) had reset itself and so I hit the starter, which spun vigorously and the engine began to purr so I drove on home, making a couple of shifts with the O/D. Problem solved.

We not so fast. Next time I tried to start it the starter spun the engine vigorously and there was no sputtering or trying to start. So I let go of the switch and the car immediately started and ran fine, So now I crank it until the engine is spinning and release the toggle switch and the engine fire right up. Been driving it daily for a week like that but haven't a clue what the problem is of just where to look. Sound like a bad ground somewhere or an overload on some part that keeps electricity from the points until I release the toggle (ground) switch. Any clues will be appreciated.
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:08 AM   #2
CWPASADENA
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

I would replace the circuit breaker with a fuse. We have been experiencing problems with circuit breakers, especially those made in China.


Be sure you have good spark during cranking. It sounds like you have a poor connection somewhere in the system.


Are you using a 12 volt coil and an external resister. Not all 12 volt coils require a separate external resistor.


Just some ideas,


Chris W.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:00 AM   #3
eagle
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

Take some accurate readings with a good voltmeter before cranking and during cranking. Make sure you have a good ground strap between engine and chassis.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:32 AM   #4
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

This is a common problem in the dodges of the 70's. The car runs on 6 volts at the coil, but to start, it is started with 12 volts at the coil. The ignition switch sends the full 12 volts to the coil in the start position and when turned to run the 12 volts goes to a dropping resistor and reduces the voltage for running thereby saving the points from the higher voltage. I don't know how yours is wired but it may be hooked up in a similar manner. Jack
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:35 AM   #5
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

To add to my last post----when the dropping resistor fails, the car will start but not run as the failed resistor will not put the required 6 volts on the coil. Jack
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

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My boat does the same thing (1983 305 SBC), doesn't fire till releasing the key or doesn't start at all. I'm curious if you solve your problem I can apply it to my boat.
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Old 03-05-2019, 10:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

To me it appears to be two unrelated problems. The first tripped the 30A breaker, which seemed to clear itself - perhaps a metallic short downstream of the OD solenoid which burned itself away - which should be investigated.

The second is that the coil voltage is being removed for some reason when the start switch activates the starter solenoid. That can be determined only by understanding the type of switch(es) and wiring scheme.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

W/that "mid 60s mustang starter solenoid" there should be 2 small terminals on that solenoid, the one marked "I" is the one that should feed the coil when the solenoid is energized.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badpuppy View Post
To me it appears to be two unrelated problems. The first tripped the 30A breaker, which seemed to clear itself - perhaps a metallic short downstream of the OD solenoid which burned itself away - which should be investigated.

The second is that the coil voltage is being removed for some reason when the start switch activates the starter solenoid. That can be determined only by understanding the type of switch(es) and wiring scheme.
Exactly.

The second problem is somewhat of a mystery, however. Here's the normal way of wiring a starter solenoid in order to bypass the voltage drop resistor when the starter is spinning...



It's easy to see if the wire from the IGN terminal of the ignition switch to the resistor was disconnected that the coil would still get current from the solenoid when the starter was engaged, but then stop immediately when the key was released.

The opposite is tougher (car only starts when releasing the key from the start position).

If the subject car is wired like my illustration, I'd start by disconnecting the wire from the I terminal on the solenoid to the resistor and try starting it. If it starts normally, I'd replace the solenoid, OR leave the wire off and just let it start on 6V. All stock As spin much slower than one with a 12V conversion and start on 6V to the coil.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:21 AM   #10
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

What illustration?
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:38 AM   #11
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

Dick's illustration is how it should be wired. We need to see an illustration of how Davey's car is wired. Davey states he installed "a remote spring loaded toggle switch". We need to know how he is providing power to the coil.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanheacox View Post
My boat does the same thing (1983 305 SBC), doesn't fire till releasing the key or doesn't start at all. I'm curious if you solve your problem I can apply it to my boat.
If you have the MoPar dual resistor feeding the coil, then yes, it could be that the start portion of the resistor is open. Do an ohm check for both resistors in the ceramic block. The start portion would be very low ohms, like .2 to .5 ohms most likely.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

If wired like Dick's diagram a potential problem is a bad ignition switch. When turning the switch to "start" voltage to the coil drops out only to be reconnected when the key is returned to "run". This is a common problem on boats using foreign switches. Just need to check for voltage to the coil when cranking.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:10 AM   #14
katy
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

I worked on a Ford pickup one time that would start and then die when the key was released. The problem was that the ignition switch would not return on it's own all the way to the run position, it had to be turned manually ever so slightly back to the run position.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:14 AM   #15
Dick Steinkamp
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by katy View Post
I worked on a Ford pickup one time that would start and then die when the key was released. The problem was that the ignition switch would not return on it's own all the way to the run position, it had to be turned manually ever so slightly back to the run position.
That's the opposite of the problem here.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:31 AM   #16
katy
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

Dick, where's your diagram? It seems that the OPs can see it but I can't see it or find it. I see a little square w/white blue and green in it, if'n I left click on it nothing happens, if'n I right click on it and then select the only option "open image in new tab" I get a new tab w/the message "This site can’t provide a secure connection"
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

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Originally Posted by katy View Post
Dick, where's your diagram? It seems that the OPs can see it but I can't see it or find it. I see a little square w/white blue and green in it, if'n I left click on it nothing happens, if'n I right click on it and then select the only option "open image in new tab" I get a new tab w/the message "This site can’t provide a secure connection"
Let me try it this way...
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Mystery starting problem (or not)

Got it, thanks.
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