Head gasket?

[jm29henry]

Which is more preferred and why a copper head gasket or a composite head gasket. And what it the difference in torque specks . Thank you for your help joe.

[Terry, NJ]

I prefer a copper one, not sure why.The first two torqueings, I go to 60 lbs, subsequent torqueings are 55Lbs. Maybe it's wrong, but it seems to be working. I don't slop Permatex all over it either! Just a seal around each Cylinder and water passages.
Terry

[jm29henry]

Terry thanks do you or have you heard of copper spray? Is that like permtex?

[MAG]

I never use anything but the copper head gasket. Use copper spray as a sealant.

[Gary WA]

Model A Ford Garage ~ Brumfield Cylinder Head Gasket Instructionss I personally use only copper with copper spray(tacky)!Tried the others with no success! Thanks to Larry!! It never fails!

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

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I have always used the composite gasket. First the old Felpro’s , now the Best.
Never had trouble either. The key is flat flat flat
The composite is definitely harder to remove.

[Bob Bidonde]

Are copper head gaskets for the Models "A" & "B" still being made?

[chap52]

I used composite and always smear on a very light coating of wheel bearing grease. I learned that trick when I was a young, know-it-all shade tree mechanic working on flathead V8's because it made it easier when had to remove them later.
I must have forgotten a lot over the years because I am always asking questions???
"Enjoy the adventure..." Chap

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

The typical issue with people who have composite head gasket issues is the engine machinist used poor methods/equipment when resurfacing the deck or the head thus causing the RA finish to be poor. This allowed coolant to weep under the gasket.

[Jack Shaft]

All head gaskets are composite today.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/composite

[Jack Shaft]

Ill go into the weeds with this..Fixed timing is a cause of head gasket failure.

Why? when you set your spark lever in one spot and drive,the only time the timing is correct is at the rpm the lever is set at..any other rpm,say accelerating for instance,or idling,the timing is either too far advanced or retarded (depending on engine RPM) raising and lowering combustion chamber temperatures..this alteration of temperatures expands or contracts the head,forcing the head gasket beyond its ability to seal.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

Ill go into the weeds with this..Fixed timing is a cause of head gasket failure.

Why? when you set your spark lever in one spot and drive,the only time the timing is correct is at the rpm the lever is set at..any other rpm,say accelerating for instance,or idling,the timing is either too far advanced or retarded (depending on engine RPM) raising and lowering combustion chamber temperatures..this alteration of temperatures expands or contracts the head,forcing the head gasket beyond its ability to seal.

This is certainly plausible as a theory, but I'm curious what evidence you have that improper timing -> wide temperature swings in the head -> gasket failure. Like, what forensic traces in a gasket failure tell you that it was due to improper timing?

[katy]

Back in the 1950s I was taught a copper head gasket w/a thin coating of chassis grease. but now I prefer a copper head gasket w/a coating of aluminum spray paint.

[Bruce of MN]

I followed this advice and it worked for me with a 6:1 head:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...07&postcount=7

[Jim Brierley]

Best #509 is available as a copper or composite gasket, same part number. I prefer copper because when and if removal is needed, the comp is a bear to get completely off. Other racers that I know use the composite, saying they have better luck with it. Copper seems to require torqueing more often when new than the comp. Like Katy, I use silver paint, a light coat, let dry, then a heavier coat dry until tacky, then install. Copper coat never dries, so is a bit slippery, paint acts as a glue, so is more apt to stay in place.

[jm29henry]

Thank you all for all of the great help and information. I really do appreciate all of you for taking your time and really trying to help a fellow model A owner. I have decided to go with the copper and I will use copper spray . Is 55 foot lb correct for the final torque of the head bolts?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by jm29henry

Thank you all for all of the great help and information. I really do appreciate all of you for taking your time and really trying to help a fellow model A owner. I have decided to go with the copper and I will use copper spray . Is 55 foot lb correct for the final torque of the head bolts?

55 Ftlb is plenty if you have a standard head. I run a 5.5:1 head and use the same though I have heard some say they like to bump it to 57 or 8 with a high compression head

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

This is certainly plausible as a theory, but I'm curious what evidence you have that improper timing -> wide temperature swings in the head -> gasket failure. Like, what forensic traces in a gasket failure tell you that it was due to improper timing?

No forensics, just logic guided by experience.Improper timing can raise combustion temperature,higher combustion temperature put more expansion stress on the head and studs. Accuracy in timing and coolant temperature control (thermostat) provides both stability in combustion temperature and coolant temperature,meaning the head is under less stress from fluctuating temperature.Exhaust manifold gasket failure and manifold warping will also be eased by consistent combustion chamber temperature.Do you have to do this for a successful experience with a model a? no,the A engine in stock form yields an excellent service life properly maintained. I enjoy getting peak performance and efficiency from the L head 200 cu in four cylinder engine.

[jm29henry]

Perfect.! I was wondering?The two head bolts that holds the upper radiator inlet is 45 lb for those two head bolts proper.

[1crosscut]

Torque the water outlet studs to 55 lbs too. I don't use a gasket on the upper outlet fitting. I file both surfaces until they are flat, flat, flat. Then I put a very thin smear of silicone gasket material on the head and torque it down. Never had a leak or broken an ear off doing it this way.

I put two light coats of the copper coat spray on the head gasket. Letting each coat get very tacky. Put the head on while the second coat is still tacky.

Be sure that the head gasket drops on easily before spraying on the copper coat. No fun fumbling around trying to get a sticky gasket to slide down onto misaligned head studs.

I'm very careful to spray the copper coat from the inside out to keep the outer edge clean leaving a crisp white gasket edge. Does nothing for performance but looks nice. If you get too much copper coat on and it squeezes out leave it alone until it is dry and shave the globs off with a sharp knife or razor blade. Try it while it is wet and it will make a smeary mess all over things.

Do not be afraid to torque the head multiple (many) times especially early on while cycling it through heating and cooling.

It will take a while for it to settle in and stay put at 55.

You can't torque it too many times. But you can torque it too much.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by 1crosscut

Be sure that the head gasket drops on easily before spraying on the copper coat. No fun fumbling around trying to get a sticky gasket to slide down onto misaligned head studs.

While test fitting the gasket, additionally test fit the head before spraying the copper coat.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by 1crosscut

I'm very careful to spray the copper coat from the inside out to keep the outer edge clean leaving a crisp white gasket edge. Does nothing for performance but looks nice. If you get too much copper coat on and it squeezes out leave it alone until it is dry and shave the globs off with a sharp knife or razor blade. Try it while it is wet and it will make a smeary mess all over things.

Just curious. When you spray copper cote on your gasket what do you do about the overhang of the gasket due to the 5.5 head being physically smaller than a stock head/head gasket? I suppose you could mask it off?

I use the Best Graphtite head gasket without sealant.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

A couple of things to point out here;

Copper 'Spray a Gasket' coatings are a "band-aid" for something else that is wrong. I cannot think of a legitimate reason for using it if the cylinder head and the engine block deck surface has been properly machined. Some say it an insurance policy! Again, it is not needed however if used and the head and or block move due to thermal expansion where the tackiness of the Copper coating has been disturbed, then is there really a future benefit at that point? Likely it will do more harm than good. That is why most knowledgeable/reputable rebuilders will say "No." to using it.



As for increasing the torque greater than 55 pound, (-or insert any number over 50 pounds) you really do not receive any more clamping force that is beneficial.

The arbitrary 55# torque number is what the advertised rating is for fastener torque of a ⁷⁄₁₆ Grade 5 stud. This provides about 60,000(±) pounds of yield. The issue is the deck surface of the engine block is only 0.4375" thick (-which matches the thread depth for the size of stud) HOWEVER, the cast iron block with ⁷⁄₁₆" stud only has a yield rating of 44k pounds before the threads will be compromised (pull). With a Grade 2 or Grade 3 stud, this will never be an issue however with a Grade 5 or 8 stud, -and with additional torque placed on the stud(s), the deck surface is typically distorted when the studs are torqued that much.

An engine machinist with a good quality surfacer often finds the perimeter of the stud's threaded hole will be "proud" as the threads have begun to pull. In this situation, the only correct repair is to install a thread insert in each of the damaged holes. The irony is that 50# vs. 55# total clamping load is less than 100# -or about 1¼%. Again, make the block & head surfaces flat, and you don't need the extra torque amount.

[Werner]

Guten Abend lieber Dave.

If you retighten the Z-head screws repeatedly, do you only use the same torque or do you loosen every single screw a little beforehand?

Your copper spray irritates me. We have copper spray as assembly grease (it doesn't dry) or copper lacquer (it doesn't slide).

[Werner]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

... As for increasing the torque greater than 55 pound, (-or insert any number over 50 pounds) you really do not receive any more clamping force that is beneficial.

Guten Abend Brent,


I didn't understand everything correctly because of the foreign language. But if a newly ground C-head still seeps a little past the composite seal, then a stronger torque must cause a higher pressure = joint tightness?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Werner

Guten Abend Brent,


I didn't understand everything correctly because of the foreign language. But if a newly ground C-head still seeps a little past the composite seal, then a stronger torque must cause a higher pressure = joint tightness?

Hey Werner, -the thing that you must realize is a Model-A head is very flimsy and will distort easily. When resurfacing the head, it is easy to distort the head just when anchoring it down however if it is within 0.001 or so, it will seal. The surface finish is what is critical.

As mentioned, the RA finish of the head must be quality. In other words, if you cannot see your reflection from the head and block's gasket surface, then the surface finish grade is too low. My Kwik Way surfacing machine will consistently produce a 70+ RA finish. If the surface finish is above a 65 and the surface is flat within 0.0005 of each other, then there won't be any seepage. Just because it is a "newly ground" does not ensure the RA finish is acceptable.

[Terry, NJ]

Hallo Werner, Viele Grüße. Wir haben kein Umlaut on diese "Ami" Maschinen. Kein ess auch. Aber, what Brent was talking about , as I understand it, was that 55 Lbs torque (25 kilos, I believe) was all that you can use without distorting the head and/or the engine block. Using more torque will damage head or block. I always assumed I could use 60Lbs with the first and second torquing and go back to 55Lbs after as the gasket compresses.
Terry

[1crosscut]

[QUOTE=Y-Blockhead;1952022][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]Just curious. When you spray copper cote on your gasket what do you do about the overhang of the gasket due to the 5.5 head being physically smaller than a stock head/head gasket? I suppose you could mask it off?

Not that much of it that shows and it hasn't been an issue to me.

Originally Posted by Werner

Guten Abend lieber Dave.

If you retighten the Z-head screws repeatedly, do you only use the same torque or do you loosen every single screw a little beforehand?

Your copper spray irritates me. We have copper spray as assembly grease (it doesn't dry) or copper lacquer (it doesn't slide).

I don't loosen them first. Others do.

Brent, perhaps I will install my next head without using the copper coat.

[Agent Orange]

I use no sealant either.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

As mentioned, the RA finish of the head must be quality. In other words, if you cannot see your reflection from the head and block's gasket surface, then the surface finish grade is too low. My Kwik Way surfacing machine will consistently produce a 70+ RA finish. If the surface finish is above a 65 and the surface is flat within 0.0005 of each other, then there won't be any seepage.

Wait a second, doesn't the Ra number go down as the finish improves? You're saying the Ra should be below 65?

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Just curious. When you spray copper cote on your gasket what do you do about the overhang of the gasket due to the 5.5 head being physically smaller than a stock head/head gasket? I suppose you could mask it off?

Originally Posted by 1crosscut

Not that much of it that shows and it hasn't been an issue to me.

I thought maybe you would trim the gasket since you want to "keep the outer edge clean leaving a crisp white gasket edge" instead of leaving ⅛" of gasket hanging out with sticky Copper Cote on it. Guess not...

I think I will continue to not use Copper Cote.

[nkaminar]

Definitely use a head gasket.

I have had better luck with the premium head gasket than the copper head gasket with the copper spray adhesive, part number B-6051-M. I have the 5.5 to 1 high compression head. The head and block must be flat and absolutely clean. I use a wire brush wheel on a drill motor and acetone for the final clean.

Using grease on gaskets is an old racer's trick, although I have never heard of it used on a head gasket before. The engines in race cars are torn down after each race day and the grease makes it easy to remove the gaskets.

[Jack Shaft]

Sandpaper,wire brushes emery cloth or scotch brite all remove metal.The best method for cleaning without any chance of distortion is a roloc bristle disc use it with a die grinder..

[shew01]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

Sandpaper,wire brushes emery cloth or scotch brite all remove metal.The best method for cleaning without any chance of distortion is a roloc bristle disc use it with a die grinder..

Oddly, Amazon mentions Scotchbrite in this product’s description.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01D92OAJ2...v_ov_lig_dp_it

Does it contain Scothbrite as its abrasive?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nkaminar]

A wire bush with brass wire may be an alternative.

[jm29henry]

Thanks so much I was wondering about the spaying and keeping the copper spray from getting on the white part of the gasket
Is 50 foot lb for a original stock head correct,I will be installing new head bolts and studs I purchased the better ones from Berts I hope those are the strong ones, also should I put a little anti seeze on the studs going into the block.
I have been working 10 hour days my work has a shut down so next Saturday I will put back together

[Jack Shaft]

I use a quality sealant on the studs like permatex ultra grey,screw them in hand tight.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Jack Shaft

Sandpaper,wire brushes emery cloth or scotch brite all remove metal.The best method for cleaning without any chance of distortion is a roloc bristle disc use it with a die grinder..

I just cleaned my block surface tonight and I mostly used a Roloc green disc and then a white disc, both on a 1/4" shank in a cordless drill. They worked well, but there were a couple spots I wasn't making progress on and I discovered that a 4" nylon-abrasive wheel really did the trick.

[1crosscut]

On studs I use Indian Head shellac.

I like to wait about 24 hours after setting them into place before putting on the gasket and head. This allows the shellac set up a fair amount but still allows the studs to be turned by hand with a little bit of effort. This then makes it possible to adjust the amount of the stud that protrudes above the nuts if they are too low but is still stiff enough to prevent them from turning when spinning on the nuts.

Lacquer thinner works well to remove any shellac that squeezes out of the threads after screwing them in.

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I just cleaned my block surface tonight and I mostly used a Roloc green disc and then a white disc, both on a 1/4" shank in a cordless drill. They worked well, but there were a couple spots I wasn't making progress on and I discovered that a 4" nylon-abrasive wheel really did the trick.

the bristle disc works best on a die grinder..spinning it at 22000 rpm (yes 22k) makes short work of and build up.the cordless drill turns too slow