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Old 08-20-2011, 06:11 AM   #21
1931 flamingo
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

IMO there's something still wrong here. NEW radiator and temps still that high? There must be a ton of crud in that block and/or blocked passages or timing marks not lined up. How's the waterpump? Is it possible the water is moving thru the rad too fast to cool down. I don't think I would be comfortable running at 190. JMO
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:38 AM   #22
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

One thing for sure, its not a modern car and you don't try to time it that way. Model a's were not suppose to run on 50-50 antifreeze, it will run much cooler on plain water, 190 degrees is danger zone on my temperature guage this was all discussed on another thread and ignored. I think that unless you are running a model B carburetor you shouldn't be driving with the gav closed. Running with a too lean mix does contribute to overheating. I've owned driven and timed model A's since I was a kid. I time by the timing pin and the position of the rotor tip. My cars run fairly cool and have plenty of pep. I still have my first model A and it still has the same babbit that came with it when it left the factory so my timing must not be too bad. I find that it is easier to teach a 12 year old how to set the timing on a model A than it is a grown up that thinks he already knows what he is doing.
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
That sounds about right to me, and I don't see anything that needs to be fixed. Antifreeze will raise the boiling point of the coolant.
I agree with Tom.

My experience is very similar to yours. New Brassworks radiator on new rebuild with 5.9 head, 160-degree thermostat. Temp in the 180's on a hot Michigan day (90's). Don't know why it doesn't hold at 160, but as long as it doesn't overflow, no problem. Could be the difference between water and antifreeze--sounds far-fetched to me but I have no other ideas.

Modern cars are thermostatted to run at 190 or higher. It hurts nothing, keeps the oil cleaner, and increases efficiency. As long as it doesn't boil over.

I don't understand all of the recommendations to advance timing. My understanding is that hich compression heads need less advance. Winfield hc heads had a special block that was used to offset-retard the timing.

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Old 08-20-2011, 10:12 AM   #24
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Antifreeze raises the boiling point. If a model A is running 190 degrees it is running hot. 212 degrees is the boiling point of water so the fact that antifreeze lowers the boiling point doesn't really pertain. Modern cars with pressurized cooling systems that prevent the coolant from exiting via the overflow tube run at higher temperatures than the model A was designed to run. model A cooling systems are primitave as compaired to modern cars that were designed to run at higher temperatures . Model A heads only have fourteen head bolts-studs and are known to teeter on the block on every compression stroke, not so with modern cars and that is one reason that so many model A's develope head gasket problems.

Timing, I have three model A's running with 5.9 heads and have another with an F3 head and have ran other model A engines with heart shaped combustion chambers so I do have some real world experience with high compression heads. Higher compression does need less advanced timing. I have found it easier to set the timing with less initial advance at the rotor tip than having to constantly fiddle with the spark lever. The way that I do this is when the timing pin drops into place is to lock down the dist cam just before the trailing edge of the rotor tip aligns with the contact in the cap with NO clockwise backlash rotation. counter clockwise rotation doesn't effect timing. This applies to higher compression heads and I run at speed with the spark lever at full advance. I dont lug my engines at any speed. I usually try to keep the momentum built up. when driving on the highway I like to keep speeds of at least 50 mph. This helps on the hills and keeps plenty of cooling air flowing through the fins of the radiator. Creepy take offs and running at speeds that the engine lugs on hills to the point that the engine knocks isn't helping save the engine. That is not to say that the spark lever can't be used when needed. I set my points at .022 this way you won't have to reset the points as soon when the points block wears down and my cars perform well at this setting.

I once ran a light duty two row radiator that wouldn't cool a good tight engine, this was not an 8 fin radiator. I have never heard of an 8 fin two row radiator. are you sure that you are running a brassworks radiator?
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I'd time it +5 full up. It should still start good. Then while going down the road, advance the timing until you hear pinging, then back off. Then you can be sure to have enough advance. Try running 25% antifreeze. Should still be enough in OK to prevent freezing and will have better heat transfer.

Did you look to set the timing pin? Some cam gears have a very small indent that makes setting by touch iffy. I look and then paint a white mark on the indent as well.
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I just got back from a get together with the Tulsa, Ok. Mafca chapter. Their were over 30 cars there and along with some great food their was also great dialog. Because I didn't want to take a 200 mile trip with a suspect car I drove my modern car but paid attention to the 6 cars that did make the trip. Day was cooler than we have been having and all cars ran 170-190 the whole trip. Only one of the cars was running water the other 50-50. The two cars with 10 fin 3 row radiators ran the coolest. While all the cars with 2 row radiators that were 8 fin ran the warmest. A couple of lurkers had read my post and recognized my car.
They asked if the problem had been solved and I told them no. Like the responses here everyone suggested timing.

Purdy I re-checked the radiator and it's not 8 fin its only 7. The guy that I got the radiator from insisted he got it from Brassworks. What kind of improvement can I expect from a 3 row radiator?

I also had a flat when I got home so I will fix that tomorrow and take it back out with pure water and see what I get. Thanks for all the suggestions.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I think you answered that your self about the 3 row !!.. But get a GOOD one from BERGS radiator...
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:33 AM   #28
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Everything was running fine, you replaced the head with one that makes the car run cooler, you replaced the radiator.

What makes a car run hot?
Clogged radiator, but you put in a new one.
Blown head gasket, but you replaced the head and checked for bubbles in radiator.
Did you check compression to be sure the gasket is good?
Timing, Have you timed it using Marco's web site?
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Mike,

Yes to all. As soon as I get the flat fixed today I am going to run straight water and see how it behaves.


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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
Everything was running fine, you replaced the head with one that makes the car run cooler, you replaced the radiator.

What makes a car run hot?
Clogged radiator, but you put in a new one.
Blown head gasket, but you replaced the head and checked for bubbles in radiator.
Did you check compression to be sure the gasket is good?
Timing, Have you timed it using Marco's web site?
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:30 AM   #30
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Do you know if the fins (blades) on your water pump impeller are original or have they been ground down? I had great flow into the top tank, TOO MUCH IN FACT. Slowing the flow down was necessary for the fluid to get into the cores at the same rate at the fluid was entering the top of the tank. Too much flow ends up blowing out the overflow or overheating (both)

I was told to remove my impeller and grind the blades down as mentioned above and it eliminated my Hot Running immediately. No problem since doing that a couple of weeks ago. Even running in hot weather.

Just my thoughts............

NOW I FEEL CONFIDENT TO DRIVE THIS LITTLE CAR ANYWHERE, ANYTIME...YEEHAW.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Well I got my flat fixed and once again verified point gap and timing. Headed out for a 5 mile run to see how things would go. Just 100 degrees today but temps only got over 190 when I stopped and came back down when I started to roll. 180-190 has always been where it would run in the summer. I also tried straight water. Almost identical results. I don't know if you would call this solved but it's manageable.

I am going to call Bergs in the morning and talk to them about a 3 core radiator. I am intrigued on how one would fit as I have only a fingers width between the end of the water pump shaft and the 2 core radiator.

Bobpo do you have a temp gauge on the car to share your temps now?
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Old 08-27-2011, 02:26 PM   #32
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

ttt
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Old 08-28-2011, 12:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

We have a guy in our club that had a motometer on his car. The motometer would climb right up to the very top when he drove the car.

He spent time cleaning, adjusting, testing for weeks but each time the temp would rise. It's been over 10 years since he fixed the problem and still has the same car, radiator and times his car the same way.

Oh, I forget to mention the fix, he took off his motometer.
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:22 AM   #34
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

As you can see, I live in the Islands where its always hot and we have mountains in stead is hills. I am running a B block slightly warmed up, a Lion Head, B water pump with out a fan. My secret is a Walker Radiator (3 13/16 thick) I can climb any hill down here, NO fan, and she never gives me a problem. She will run a bit warm if I am in traffic, but I have a back up electric fan, just in case. LOL I have never used it or needed it. Iceman
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:18 AM   #35
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

Mike,

I have a regular radiator cap on standby


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
We have a guy in our club that had a motometer on his car. The motometer would climb right up to the very top when he drove the car.

He spent time cleaning, adjusting, testing for weeks but each time the temp would rise. It's been over 10 years since he fixed the problem and still has the same car, radiator and times his car the same way.

Oh, I forget to mention the fix, he took off his motometer.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:22 AM   #36
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I am beginning to think the 2 core radiator I have is not sufficent for these temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice man View Post
As you can see, I live in the Islands where its always hot and we have mountains in stead is hills. I am running a B block slightly warmed up, a Lion Head, B water pump with out a fan. My secret is a Walker Radiator (3 13/16 thick) I can climb any hill down here, NO fan, and she never gives me a problem. She will run a bit warm if I am in traffic, but I have a back up electric fan, just in case. LOL I have never used it or needed it. Iceman
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:37 AM   #37
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

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I am beginning to think the 2 core radiator I have is not sufficent for these temps.
When I bought my 29 Tudor it had a repro 2 row, and it wasn't enough.
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:15 AM   #38
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I once had a two row radiator on one of my model A's, Not a brass works. The core of this radiator didn't extend all the way back to the edge of the radiator frame, it was quite thin. This radiator cooled a worn out engine with no problem. When I installed a good engine that didn't have all the wear clearance, the two row radiator would no longer do the job.
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:51 AM   #39
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

When I talked to the folks at Brassworks they insisted that 3 cores weren't necessary. That their 2 core design was so much more efficent that the 3rd core wasn't necessary. I am running a 6 fin 2 row Brassworks now and it's not enough in these temps. Whether a 10 fin would be better I can not say. I either have to bite the bullet and purchase a 3 row or see if I can borrow one from one of our local club members to see it if better cools.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:42 PM   #40
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Default Re: UPDATE....Ok so a brand new radiator and it still runs hot

I have found that the outside temps directly impact how the cooling system performs. Drove 30 miles Saturday 40-45 mph outside temps was around 68 degrees. Car ran 160-170 degrees. On the return drive temps were around 88 degress and car ran 190-200 degrees.
Until I can afford a new radiator I guess I will pull the head and check the gasket and check the water pump impeller and make sure it isn't spinning on the shaft.
I also noticed that at the top of the radiator tank the temps are what the gauge shows. At the bottom of the tank the temps were around 150. At the inlet neck they were close to what the gauge shows. Almost like it's not pulling the cool water up but I can see the water moving thru the radiator. Increase speed and it the flow increases. ARRRGGGGG!
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