Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2019, 08:48 PM   #1
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Question Carb Issues

Hello All,

I just picked up another air balanced, flow tested rebuilt carburetor the other day and I put it on my car to see how well it runs.

To run it it needs 1-1/2 to 2 turns on the GAV, Obviously runs rich. When I try to turn the GAV in, it starts running ruff and if I turn it all the way in, it dies.

Anything come to mind?

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2019, 10:32 PM   #2
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,213
Default Re: Carb Issues

How does it run at driving speeds with the GAV screwed almost in?
__________________
I want to live forever.
So far so good.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-07-2019, 07:59 AM   #3
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
How does it run at driving speeds with the GAV screwed almost in?
Thanks Synchro,

At 35 it bog's down pretty bad like it's starving for fuel so I open it up and the car runs fine. At slow speed it smells like gas is pouring out the carb, ... but it's not. I'm afraid I might be running to rich resulting in washing the cylinder walls of it's oil.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 08:58 AM   #4
jhowes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 719
Default Re: Carb Issues

I would go back to where you "just picked up" the carb and get some satisfaction from the rebuilder. This is not right, the car should run with the gav at a 1/4 turn or so. Jack
jhowes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 09:24 AM   #5
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

Taking the carb back is not an issue as he's my brother in-law. He rebuild's carb's as a side business and has started working on "A" Zenith carbs. He's rebuilt 3 prior to this one for me and they all work great except this one. He's about 60 miles from me and I was just wondering if someone had a clue as we're both kinda stumped. I was hoping it was something simple like the GAV is defective, wrong jet sizing or something like that. Maybe I'll take the carb apart tonight and have a look.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 09:27 AM   #6
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,897
Default Re: Carb Issues

Have you adjusted the idle air needle valve?
__________________
Don't go away mad, just go away.
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 09:44 AM   #7
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by katy View Post
Have you adjusted the idle air needle valve?
Hi Katy,

Yes I have per Les Andrews Book #1 pgs. 2-7, 2-8.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 09:45 AM   #8
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,212
Default Re: Carb Issues

Pull a plug, look at condition. Like Katy indicates, new carb, and with new jets - adjustment is necessary.


Not sure where you got the replacement jets, preferably you bought them from somewhere that flow tests them. Replacements frequently/occassionaly do not to flow correctly.


Renner's Corner flow tests their replacements before shipping. In my A they made a big difference in motor running smoothly, more acceleration, more torque especially going up hills, and plugs are now a nice tan . Before they were not sooty, but were a little on the black side on the center insulator. More expensive but worth if.
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 09:51 AM   #9
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU View Post
Pull a plug, look at condition. Like Katy indicates, new carb, and with new jets - adjustment is necessary.


Not sure where you got the replacement jets, preferably you bought them from somewhere that flow tests them. Replacements frequently/occassionaly do not to flow correctly.


Renner's Corner flow tests their replacements before shipping. In my A they made a big difference in motor running smoothly, more acceleration, more torque especially going up hills, and plugs are now a nice tan . Before they were not sooty, but were a little on the black side on the center insulator. More expensive but worth if.
Hi 30,

ALL my parts for all 4 of my carbs came from Renner's Corner, so they are the real deal. The carb bottoms were sent there also and they did the air balance passage machining which is why we're stumped.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 10:06 AM   #10
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,212
Default Re: Carb Issues

If you have another carb, or a spare GAV needle, swap it in. When you do, inspect the needle and teh seat. Maybe one or both are damaged.


If you do have another carb, swap the bottom of the carb, at least would narrow things down slightly. Easy to do, do not even half to remove the carb from the A. I had to do this recently on a spares carb I was having problems with.


Are you sure you do not have a leak at the Carb/Intake manifold, or at the intake manifold letting air into the air/fuel mixture?


One of the things I had to do was to put a little sealant on the jet threads being careful not to allow teh sealant to get into the carb. Some will say do not do this. I used a Permatex product, is white and soft. Did not use Teflon tape, thought a piece might get into the carb and block things. It helped me cure an issue.


Just s few suggestions, I found out on my carb, carbs can be exasperating to fix.
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 10:42 AM   #11
farmerjohn39
Junior Member
 
farmerjohn39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Elyria, Ohio
Posts: 8
Default Re: Carb Issues

Hi BillCNC
In the last week I purchased a NEW " Air Balanced Carburetor" from Synders, just so I could install a air filter on the carburetor' and I have nothing nothing but problems with the new carburetor.
The first one Synders sent me leaked gas through the casting ( I think it was a pin hole in the casting) Called Synders they sent me out a replacement for the defective one.
The second new carburetor from Synders didn't leak gas, but it wouldn't let the car run over 30 mi. per. hr. also it wouldn't run or idle down unless the GAV was open 1 to 1 1/4. I removed the air filter and that didn't help so I gave up and put the old stock ZENITH back on w/ no filter the motor ran ok. (if its not broke don't fix until it is broke)

I returned both carburetors to Synders and canceled my order. Snyders quality has been very good, I think they just got a bad batch from there supplier.

Regards farmerjohn
__________________
1930 Tudor
farmerjohn39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 12:40 PM   #12
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

Hi Farmerjohn,

Well this one needed to be rebuilt, ... it started as empty set of castings needing to be populated with every part.

Odd thing is, I can get it to idle perfectly ALMOST 80% of the time. The other 20%, it's a handful when coming to a stop. It runs very nice at 50-55 mph. Recently while doing a search of my problem I saw an old post of Bill Williams that said to dial in the GAV at 20-25 mph in second gear. Once set, I think it was 1.5 turns it ran fine until I came to a stop sign, ... the car died. Starting it again requires the GAV to be turned out to 2 turns or so.

Iv'e been reading a couple of books by Steve Pargeter today.

1) Zenith Model "A" Carburetor Restoration Guidelines
2) Model "A" Ignition Primer & Restoration Guidelines

The Ignition book's cover say's "90% of all carburetor problems are electrical" so I guess that is also something to consider. But for the GAV?

Perhaps, taking the carb apart and cleaning it, checking that nothing is stuck in an orifice or the passageway's and checking my float level might do it. Or perhaps checking the electrical might be in order. I not completely sure if electrical could be the problem if I'm only having issues with the GAV settings. But then again, ... this is still new to me, ... almost 2 years in the hobby.

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out how the average person took care of these Swiss Watches of a car compared to a modern car, only to be armed with minimal tools and knowledge at best.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 12:44 PM   #13
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

30,

I'probably could start swapping part's from my other's, but I think that's going to be plan "B". I'd hate to start playing around with perfectly functioning carburetors only to end up with another one acting a little squirrelly.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 12:54 PM   #14
30 Closed Cab PU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,212
Default Re: Carb Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillCNC View Post
30,

I'probably could start swapping part's from my other's, but I think that's going to be plan "B". I'd hate to start playing around with perfectly functioning carburetors only to end up with another one acting a little squirrelly.

Regards
Bill


I understand, this was a last resort, also had fears of messing up my good carb. But ran out of ideas so tried this.
30 Closed Cab PU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 01:17 PM   #15
chrs1961815
Senior Member
 
chrs1961815's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Spring Grove, Illinois
Posts: 361
Default Re: Carb Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerjohn39 View Post
Hi BillCNC
In the last week I purchased a NEW " Air Balanced Carburetor" from Synders, just so I could install a air filter on the carburetor' and I have nothing nothing but problems with the new carburetor.
The first one Synders sent me leaked gas through the casting ( I think it was a pin hole in the casting) Called Synders they sent me out a replacement for the defective one.
The second new carburetor from Synders didn't leak gas, but it wouldn't let the car run over 30 mi. per. hr. also it wouldn't run or idle down unless the GAV was open 1 to 1 1/4. I removed the air filter and that didn't help so I gave up and put the old stock ZENITH back on w/ no filter the motor ran ok. (if its not broke don't fix until it is broke)

I returned both carburetors to Synders and canceled my order. Snyders quality has been very good, I think they just got a bad batch from there supplier.

Regards farmerjohn
From what I have heard, most of the new carburetor parts from vendors have issues (especially leaks). And the new carbs are the worst for quality. Have to be made overseas. When it comes down to it, most OEM parts are better and longer lasting than the junk that is being sold today.
__________________
"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
chrs1961815 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 01:29 PM   #16
jm29henry
Senior Member
 
jm29henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: michigan
Posts: 944
Default Re: Carb Issues

I believe that it could simply be that the float is set to low ? Easy to check best of luck to you
jm29henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 01:31 PM   #17
jm29henry
Senior Member
 
jm29henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: michigan
Posts: 944
Default Re: Carb Issues

Does your brother in-law test his carburetor before sending them out?
jm29henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 01:41 PM   #18
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrs1961815 View Post
From what I have heard, most of the new carburetor parts from vendors have issues (especially leaks). And the new carbs are the worst for quality. Have to be made overseas. When it comes down to it, most OEM parts are better and longer lasting than the junk that is being sold today.
Which is the most disturbing part.

All these parts are being made on CNC machines, with accuracy that Henry could never have possibly imagined even in his wildest dream's. These parts should be 10x better made, period. They should have higher quality of accuracy with higher quality metals than the originals.

The REAL problem is Human's. A CNC WILL make a part EXACTLY as programmed 100% of the time. It must be checked periodically for tool wear and the tool offset's programming adjusted, or the tools need to be replaced to keep tolerances. Adjusting the offset's is the norm.

If a part made is wrong:

The programming is wrong = Human error
Tool Wear = Programming = Human error
Part moved in vise = Human error
Tool Breakage = Human error
Part setup wrong = Human error
Machining known defective part's = Greedy Human error

Vendors buying know incorrect part's = Greedy Human error

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 01:50 PM   #19
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm29henry View Post
Does your brother in-law test his carburetor before sending them out?
Mine are his first model "A's".

I'm not sure how he deals with the rest of the brand's. I know he does mail order and has a few LA/orange county car dealership, parts houses as clients.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2019, 03:27 PM   #20
BillCNC
Senior Member
 
BillCNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SoCal Desert
Posts: 423
Default Re: Carb Issues

I used Renner's Corner tool #RC-9599-Z, Zenith Carburetor Fuel Level Setting Gauge to check the bowl level setting and it come to .0625" (5/8's) from the seam. I started the car a couple of times with the tool installed so it would refill it for another measurement. It's .625", every time. So it's time to remove the carb for disassembly.

Regards
Bill
BillCNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:54 PM.