Radials on a 37 Ford???

[Tom in SW VA]

I was planning on putting radial 600 X 16 tires on my 37 Ford, then I read that the rims were not made for radials and ofter broke or ruptured.

Any thoughts on this?? Anyone had a problem with rims and radials??

Thanking you in advance..........

[Dick Webber]

I put Diamondback radials (tubeless) on my 39 Deluxe about 5 yr ago. It is lightly driven, and I like the tires. No problems. Haven't been able to find anyone to balance them however.

[felix37]

Talk to the folks at Coker Tire. They are the worlds largest antique tire dealer in the world and the originators of the first wide white radials.

[DICK SPADARO]

The radial tire use issue is in the design of the wheel not the tire. There are two issues that question the tire from being safely run as a tubeless unit.

The first is the potential for air to leak from the shell to flange rivets, this can be cured by skimming the dish of the rim shell with a thin layer clear silicone bath tub sealer.

The second is the design of the rim shell. If you look at a new style OEM tubeless tire rim with the tire dismounted you will notice a small raised ring in the metal of the wheel shell just below the bead lip. This is called the hump and serves as the safety bead for radial tire application. The hump in the shell prevents the radial tire bead from slipping off the bead seat of the shell during heavy cornering loads and keeps the tire firmly positioned on the rim. Original 1936-39 rims are made for tube style tires and therefore do not have this added safety precaution designed into their manufacture. Also designed in newer rims is a bead angle factor of 5* that mates the bead of the rim to the molded bead edge of the tire for better sealing. Early style rims have more of a right angle flange and do not match the newer style radial tire molded bead. Can you run radials on early rims well probaly yes but to do it safely you should use a radial tube in your tire and not run them tube less.

[Tom in SW VA]

Originally Posted by DICK SPADARO

The radial tire use issue is in the design of the wheel not the tire. There are two issues that question the tire from being safely run as a tubeless unit.

The first is the potential for air to leak from the shell to flange rivets, this can be cured by skimming the dish of the rim shell with a thin layer clear silicone bath tub sealer.

The second is the design of the rim shell. If you look at a new style OEM tubeless tire rim with the tire dismounted you will notice a small raised ring in the metal of the wheel shell just below the bead lip. This is called the hump and serves as the safety bead for radial tire application. The hump in the shell prevents the radial tire bead from slipping off the bead seat of the shell during heavy cornering loads and keeps the tire firmly positioned on the rim. Original 1936-39 rims are made for tube style tires and therefore do not have this added safety precaution designed into their manufacture. Also designed in newer rims is a bead angle factor of 5* that mates the bead of the rim to the molded bead edge of the tire for better sealing. Early style rims have more of a right angle flange and do not match the newer style radial tire molded bead. Can you run radials on early rims well probaly yes but to do it safely you should use a radial tube in your tire and not run them tube less.

Thanks for the explanation. It does make it very tentative. Is there a difference in a radial tube from the regular tube-type tire tube? I am still not sure what to do? Are the benefits of radial tires worth the risk? Will the tube reduce or eliminate the risks? Thanks

[PeteVS]

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Every time this question comes up, I ask, "Has anyone ever MIG welded a bead on an "old" rim to function as the "hump" on new rims, making them safer under the cornering situation?"

[flatjack9]

I have rdials on my 39 using 50 Merc rims. Almost 20 years with no problems. Once you have driven your car with radials, you will never fo back to bias tires.

[Frank Miller]

What year did they start making rims for radial tires? This has been a fairly new topic considering radials have been around for 40 or so years. the rim should be able to handle the weight of the car. I would think if cornering forces were cracking rimes on radials they would on bias too unless it is common to lose traction to prevent that from happening. Imagine designing a rim and factoring in tires slip to determine it is strong enough. I am no engineer but have seen enough experts be wrong to question everything. My favorite myth is that synthetic oil is too slippery and caused the rollers to skid over the cam instead of turning as intended. A bearing wearing out due to lack of friction needs some splainin'.

[johnny]

I have diamond back radials on my 39 Merc. convt.original rims no problems with air loss or any other .The white walls stay white with,non to very little cleaning.

[Vic Piano]

I run radial tires on most of our old cars and trucks. I have had a set of Coker 600x16 www radials, with radial tubes on our '39CS for about six years with no problems. I do a lot of driving in the '39, just did a round trip to the Moonshine Festival in Dawsonville, GA and spent three days touring the North Georgia Mountains. Put close to 1,600 (mostly highway) miles on the '39 with no issues, tires or otherwise.

[PeteVS]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

What year did they start making rims for radial tires?

I'm pretty sure that the beads were originally used for any tubeless tire. My '63 Chebby has 'em and the car came with bias tires.

[Uncle Bob]

The inner safety bead, or hump as Dick referred to it, is a product of tubeless tire, not necessarily radials, so dates back to the '50s I believe. I second the suggestion of using radial specific tubes in in a radial tire mounted to the pre-tubeless rim.

Originally Posted by Dick Webber

I put Diamondback radials (tubeless) on my 39 Deluxe about 5 yr ago. It is lightly driven, and I like the tires. No problems. Haven't been able to find anyone to balance them however.

There are adapter plates made to mount wide five wheels to the tighter bolt patterns such as 4 1/2" or 4 3/4" bolt circles. Dick Spadaro above sells them, as do the parts suppliers for circle track racing. The advantage to Dick's is he uses 1/2" lug bolts so you can use your existing lug nuts. The circle burner ones have a 5/8" lug bolt and require the larger nuts. The adapters are often available used from racers who have surplus parts, but you want to make sure it runs true (not bent or cracked) if you go that route. Once you have it you can get your wheel/tires spun balanced at any competent shop.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

What year did they start making rims for radial tires? This has been a fairly new topic considering radials have been around for 40 or so years. the rim should be able to handle the weight of the car. I would think if cornering forces were cracking rimes on radials they would on bias too unless it is common to lose traction to prevent that from happening. Imagine designing a rim and factoring in tires slip to determine it is strong enough. I am no engineer but have seen enough experts be wrong to question everything. My favorite myth is that synthetic oil is too slippery and caused the rollers to skid over the cam instead of turning as intended. A bearing wearing out due to lack of friction needs some splainin'.

A bearing can wear out by lack of friction between the race and the ball or roller bearings. This is called false brinelling. It is shown in this article: http://www.nskamericas.com/cps/rde/x...rinelling.html If there is insufficient contact movement between the balls or rollers and the race, vibration will cause the grease to dissapate from the bearing's contact surfaces and since the rollers or balls of the bearing are not contacting properly they can't pick up new grease and distribute it to the bearing conacts surfaces. This lack of lubrication creates a condtion known as false brinelling which ruins the bearing. This is a common reason for bearing failure in universal joints if the drive line universal joint angles are at "zero". For a bearing to operate properly it must be able to "pick up" lubricant by the action of the balls or rollers rotatiing -not just remaining still. There is also a condition known as "True Brinelling" which is created by an excessive static load being applied to the bearing whereby plastic deformation actually occurs inside the bearing. I am not a bearing expert, but find this is all very interesting.

[Tom in SW VA]

Fordbarners: If I put radial tires on my 37, am I hearing that I should definitely use tubes with the radials? Are there special radial tire tubes or do you use the regular 600 X 16 tubes? Thanks for all the great info. Boy, I started a great discussion, huh? Tom

[John R]

Only use designated radial tubes for radial tires. The "hump" or bead rolled into the rim was developed by Chrysler for use in tubeless (not necessarily radial) tires in the mid-50s or so. These types of rims are mandatory for if not using a tube. John

[Frank Miller]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

A bearing can wear out by lack of friction between the race and the ball or roller bearings. This is called false brinelling. It is shown in this article: http://www.nskamericas.com/cps/rde/x...rinelling.html If there is insufficient contact movement between the balls or rollers and the race, vibration will cause the grease to dissapate from the bearing's contact surfaces and since the rollers or balls of the bearing are not contacting properly they can't pick up new grease and distribute it to the bearing conacts surfaces. This lack of lubrication creates a condtion known as false brinelling which ruins the bearing. This is a common reason for bearing failure in universal joints if the drive line universal joint angles are at "zero". For a bearing to operate properly it must be able to "pick up" lubricant by the action of the balls or rollers rotatiing -not just remaining still. There is also a condition known as "True Brinelling" which is created by an excessive static load being applied to the bearing whereby plastic deformation actually occurs inside the bearing. I am not a bearing expert, but find this is all very interesting.

These examples refer to stionary items. I have heard of this before when I was taking a class on centrifugal pumps. The lesson was not to let them sit for extended periods of time or the ball would penetrate the layer of lubricant between it and the race. Even though the motor is not running the bearing is being vibrated so you are technically hammering hardened balls into the race. Another interesting thing i learned was that overgreasing can destroy a bearing. Excessive heat is created by the roller having to plow through the grease.


here is an excerpt:
The balls of a bearing act as tiny viscosity pumps which roll on a small amount of oil film between the balls and the race. Too much grease volume will cause the rolling elements to churn the grease, resulting in parasitic energy losses and high operating temperatures, which in turn increase risk of bearing failure.

Website
http://reliabilityweb.com/index.php/...asing_program/

I know I am off topic but that's how it goes sometimes.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I read all the pros and cons of using radial tires on these '30's-'40's rims about 10 years ago. My decision was to try a set of Coker www radials on one of my old Fords about eight years ago and I found the ride and handling improvements so much superior to the bias ply tires that i would never considered going back to bias ply tires. I have since bought another set of radial tires from Diamondback (big/little black walls) for a traditional hot rod and wound up using them on my original '35 fordor sedan for touring. I put ~ 1600 miles on the fordor this last October on the BRP and Moonshine Festival Tour. Some of the guys in Vic's group who rode in my car could tell you how well it rides and handles. I don't drive this car like a high performance sports car or a roundy round stock car so I'm not worried about these tires popping off the rims or breaking the bead area of the rims. I do use tubes rated for radial tires in both sets that i own. Personally, I would not hesitate to put radial tires with tubes on that '37.

[Jeremy Bilbrey]

I run coker wide white radials on my '37

[barryfromvictoria]

as a few barners have said the safetybump was added long before radial tires were used i would NOT use radial tubes in a tubeless tire. it is not necessary unless you have adjustible spoke wire wheels such as buick skylarks. most guys nowadays seal them with epoxy after they have been adjusted to avoid tubes in radials . if you use the wrong radial you might get a flat tire about every 300 miles before you figure out why. tube tires are all made smoothe on the inside so the tube doesn`t chafe. tubeless tires weren`t designed for tubes and can have ribs, crosses, horkeys, and lots of roughness on the inside for whatever reason and will eventually wear through the tube. they make radial tubes for radial tires that were designed for tubes. some radial tubeless tires are smoothe on the inside and will not chafe the tube but you might have to comprimise on style or size. ----barry

[Frank Miller]

Barry that is a good point. Personally other than sealing in the air I do not see how the tube can add any stability or strength to the tire.