Hidden water pump bolt/ 8BA

[banjoQ]

My 36' truck is a mixture of parts, having been put together in 51' with collected components. It sat for fifty years before I got to it and put it back on the road. Been running great until the old radiator sprung another leak. Took radiator out and only then got a good look at the water pumps.As you can see, they were pretty bad. I decided it would make sense to replace them at the same time. My concern is what i have read pertaining to the hidden bolt inside the pump. I have used some acid with a brush sparingly to remove the corrosion and now can see the bolt head and fit a socket onto it. I know to use a six sided socket and to tap the head with a brass drift. Currently soaking with PB Blaster. Are there any other precautions I can take to not break this bolt? Am I worrying too much? Not sure an impact wrench is such a good idea here. Any advise would be greatly appreciated as its too easy to make the wrong move and do more damage.

[51 MERC-CT]

If you can get a socket on it, crank it out. If it breaks, once the pump is removed it is relatively easy to get at and remove as necessary.

[CSArno]

Sounds like you are doing everything right. Try it with a 3/8 ratchet first. You might be surprised how easy they come out. Replace with stainless bolts.
My second thought is, if its been running cool and the pumps aren't leaking, why take them off? Could just be opening up a can of worms. Maybe just a good flush is in order.
If it ain't broke...

[Randy1944]

I soaked with PB Blaster for about ten days and tapped on it daily-hard. Then I used an Extractor and it finally worked. Good luck!

[chap52]

Its good that you found out about those sneaky hidden bolts before you tried to muscle the pumps off. Like 51-Merc-CT said they are easy to get to after the pumps are removed.if you happen to snap one off.
Good plan to replace them after they sat for so long. Better now than later.
Keep us posted on the project. Enjoy the adventure.

[Admiral]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

So far I've disassembled about five flathead V8s, each in varying condition from freely rotating to beyond rusted solid. I've never had an issue getting these bolts out. With all the rust they look terrifying but -- knock on wood -- I haven't had one snap off yet. If the socket fits firmly you should be good.

[Binx]

I usually heat it then melt wax behind it and hammer on the best fitting 6-point socket (either sae or metric) then tighten it until it "cracks" then back it out.

OBTW BanjoQ, How's the erosion going? I love the community of Pacifica. Its like heaven on the outskirts of hayhem but it also reminds me of Seward Alaska which has an unpleasant history. I hope your property is safe.

Lonnie

[JSeery]

I would suggest not using a stainless bolt, they tend to not be near as strong as a high quality Grade bolt. Think about how long these bolts have been in there in totally neglected conditions and then think how long the new bolt will survive if the coolant is properly maintained. I would doubt it will be another 50 or 60 years before the engine is disassembled again, maybe more like 10 or 20 max. And if the coolant is maintained properly it should come out looking like new.

[banjoQ]

Well, it sounds. like I am on the right track. There is a chance the pumps are OK but as difficult as it was to get the radiator out, I would be a fool not to replace them. New ones are not that expensive and have improved bearings. The radiator on the other hand is going to hurt. I've priced out getting a catalog new one that I will have to retrofit or recore the one I have and it's about the same. After shipping a new one is about $750 and recoreing is about the same. I would rather give my money to a man who runs a small business locally than a catalog. That's me. I going to have to put on the big boy pants and get those bolts out so I can move on with the project. I miss driving the truck.
Lonnie, the media makes it look worse than it really is. There are a few properties that just might go into the water sooner or later. But it has been going on for years. Thirty years ago there were bluffs as big as football fields behind those buildings. Years of pounding surf has taken its toll and now there is nothing left. They are empty now so no one is at risk, thank goodness. Glad you enjoy our little town, it's a well kept secret

[Darrell S]

I had a post on this last month as I had broken one of the very bolts on the left side. After going through the welding a washer and nut to the broken bolt process and failing, a friend and I were successful in drilling it out and tapping it with a clean out or bottom tap. Today we bolted on the new pumps and put in the new motor mounts.
This bolt was not really that easy to get at as it is so close to the front crossmember. My advice is like the others, give it plenty of soak time with a good penetrant to avoid what I went through.

[banjoQ]

UPDATE: I tried to get these bolts out today. Five days of soaking with PB Blaster and tapping them to break the tension. These bolt heads are 1/2" and a six sided socket slips over the corners of the head. I guess the corrosion has compromised the metal to some degree even though they still look like six sided bolts. 7/16" is too small to fit on them. Any ideas on what my options are. I don't think the tin foil trick is going to work though I will try it tomorrow. Thought of tapping on the 7/16" socket, but it does not get over the head enough and would require using the BFH. I know a dark road when I see it and this has the look. Am I looking at drilling these out? If so, what kind of extractor should be used? Should I drill the whole thing out and re-tap? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

[37 Cab]

Might try these.. Many brands. This is just the first one that came up on a search;
http://www.lowes.com/pd_577634-281-3...11480005188492

[FireEngineMike]

Sears and others sell sockets designed to grip rounded off nuts and bolt heads. Good tools to have. Tommy beat me to it..

[banjoQ]

Thanks guys, those look like a much better option than hammering a smaller socket on the head. I will check into them tomorrow. Let you know how they work out.Q

[29AVEE8]

Try a 12MM they are .472" also you might try Kroil instead of PB, I find that it works better and smells a lot better. I don't know how much room you have to work with but if the 12MM works and it won't move try an impact a very low pressure. Do you have access to a welder?

[Bill Wright]

As to your radiator. I had Beko radiator in concord( across the bay) work on mine. Good guy and reasonable.
Johnny Beko

[banjoQ]

AV8- I tried using a couple of my metric sockets, no luck. It is a tight space in there, hoping to be able to get one of the extractor sockets to work. It's OK, I kind of knew I was going to have a time with this job. Trying to keep my cool and not make things worse. Will be worth it in the end. As for the welder, no I don't have one but have friends who can help if need be.
Will check out the radiator shop in Concord, couldn't hurt to see what he can do.

[JSeery]

There was a recent thread on this same issue with a good outcome. Might search for it.

[3quarter32]

The 12mm is the closet size under 1/2" 11mm would equal a 7/16" Maybe try a 12mm, 12mm 12point socket instead of the 6 point. It may drive on easier. Had to do stuff like that all the time when I had my H/D shop.

[slowforty]

Vinegar works well on removing rust. Just let it soak a couple of days. For penetrating oil a 50/50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid works well. A survey on the HAMB site claims the acetone,transmision fluid mix works as well as Kroil or anything else and is a lot cheaper. Time is your friend let the parts soak for a while.

[Binx]

BanjoQ, As I've seen so far you haven't tried heat. At the very least try a propane torch then hammered-on sockets before you chew the heads up with extractors.

Lonnie

[banjoQ]

Binx- so you are suggesting to heat the metal of the pump around the bolt, or the bolt itself? Heat makes metal expand, right? You think hammering a socket on there will do less damage than the extractor? I'll go out there tomorrow and clean it of any residual solvents and give it a try. Nothing to lose., will see what happens.

[Binx]

Heat the head of the bolt for about 5 minutes with a medium flame propane torch. As it cools, touch a birthday cake candle to the casting above the bolt and let it melt behind it. After 5 min, hammer on the tightest fitting 6-point socket (sae or metric) and slightly tighten until you hear a "crack" then turn opposite.

Lonnie

[JM 35 Sedan]

I agree with what Binx said in post #21.
If you have a small die grinder or Dremell type tool, go in and try to clean the back wall of the water pump housing around that hex bolt, with a wire brush attachment or maybe some small grinding stones/cutters, without messing up the hex head of the bolt. Apply heat to this cleaned up area on the back wall, around that bolt. If the wall is clean enough to absorb the heat of a torch, then that heat should transfer some into the cast iron on the block that's around the threads of the bolt. It might require more heat than a plumbers propane torch can deliver, so I am thinking an acetylene torch using a small rosebud tip, with gas and air adjusted properly for a good heating flame, but do not apply any extra cutting air. Get that area cherry red, then let it cool down. You might even try some candle wax near the head of the bolt as things cool some and hope it goes into the threads on the bolt. Repeat this heating and cooling cycle a few times before you hammer the correct size metric socket on the bolt head. If you have a hand held impact driver (not talking about an air/electric impact wrench here) that would be your friend here now in getting that bolt to start coming out. Maybe a few cycles of doing a couple impacts to turn the bolt in a tightening direction first, then followed by a couple impacts in the loosening direction, before you try impacting the bolt completely loose enough to back it all the way out. This is what I would suggest doing to get that bolt out in one piece, others here will have their own opinions, I am sure. Good luck, and let us know how it goes .

[supereal]

Over these many years, I haven't had a problem in getting the bolt in the pump inlet out. A good hardware store should have stainless bolts for replacement. They are as strong, or stronger, than the stock bolts. If the inside of the water pump is as crud encrusted as the picture shows, it is a good bet that the water jacket in the engine is also full of junk.

[flatjack9]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Binx

BanjoQ, As I've seen so far you haven't tried heat. At the very least try a propane torch then hammered-on sockets before you chew the heads up with extractors.

Lonnie

The extractor is the best bet. The bolt is junk anyway if you can fit a 1/2" socket on it. The bolt is 3/8 NC with a 9/16 head.

[19Fordy]

A 3/8 x 16 316 stainless bolt will take a torque load of 247 in. lb. That's 20 foot pounds. The Merc Manual shows that the water pump to block bolts torque is 23 to 28 foot pounds. Would 3 foot pounds be that critical? It would be neat to torque a SS bolt until it begins to deform and then check to see what the torque wrench shows.

[flatjack9]

I don't see the need for stainless steel. These old bolts have been in there for 50 - 80 years and mostly all come out. And undoubtedly they did not have the quality of coolants we have today.

[banjoQ]

Well, I had some time today to work on my truck. Threw some heat at the pumps and struck the bolt heads with a piece of bar stock and a hammmer. Got a good grip on the bolts but they would not move. Didn't want to put too much pressure on them, (cheater bar) as they felt like they were ready to snap. Will try an impact wrench tomorrow. Going to have to think on this one. Thanks to all that offered advise. Will keep you all posted.

[chap52]

Just keep tinkering with it. Don't get frustrated, enjoy the adventure. We've all been there and will no doubt be dealing with a head scratcher again.

[scooder]

I also don't like the stainless bolts. They are normally made of cheese, the 3lb does make a difference of your 3lb over the rating of the bolt. We have to remember these are water pumps and motor mounts.
You need to use antisize on the stainless or they gall then lock up then snap. As Jack said, the regular ones have worked for over half a century.
Martin.

[Mart]

If you remove the other bolts, moving the water pump as far from side to side as it can go might help a bit. I know it might not move very far, but moving the pump all the way to the right then moving it to the left as you turn the bolt to the left may just help. I would also try turning the bolt clockwise before turning in the undo-ing direction. A 12mm socket hammered on will get a grip and the hammering will also help.

You might as well just go for it and see if you can get them to turn. If they break they break. Then the welding repairs can begin. I would definitely try clockwise then anti clockwise in very small increments though, repeating many times. If it moves you might be able to get it free enough to come out.

Mart.

[Ronnie]

You are at a point that all you can do now is grip the bolt and remove it .One of two things are going to happen. The bolt comes out or it breaks. After this operation you know your next move.There isn't anything more to do get that pump off.Breaking the bolt is just another learning curve when it comes to repairing one of these old flatties.
You have spent more time reading and replying to these posts that it would take to pull on a breaker bar and get to step number 2.

R

[34PKUP]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

You are at a point that all you can do now is grip the bolt and remove it .One of two things are going to happen. The bolt comes out or it breaks. After this operation you know your next move.There isn't anything more to do get that pump off.Breaking the bolt is just another learning curve when it comes to repairing one of these old flatties.
You have spent more time reading and replying to these posts that it would take to pull on a breaker bar and get to step number 2.

R

Totally agree, Too much 'hemming and hawing'

[Jack E/NJ]

I agree too --- as long as he didn't forget to heat it, candle-wax it and bang it hard a half dozen or so times. Maybe even a dozen times. Unless of course he's in a hurry with all kinds of more important stuff he's gotta do too. 8^)

Jack E/NJ

[JM 35 Sedan]

Unfortunately, the above "Monday Morning Quarterbacking posts" on a Friday is of no help either. Where were you folks at when this thread started, when you could have advised him to just wrench the damn bolt off from the begining?? Criticism is always the easiest solution, at the end of the day, for those who were not helping in any way from the begining!!

[banjoQ]

No worries boys, I don't take these comments in a bad way. I'm the one who is learning here and I understand. I hope you all know that those of us in the learning phase appreciate all you have to share. If we were talking about three finger roll patterns or cross picking a mandolin I would be the one with advice. Ill keep pressing on and let you all know how it turns out. Thanks again, Q

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Unfortunately, the above "Monday Morning Quarterbacking posts" on a Friday is of no help either. Where were you folks at when this thread started, when you could have advised him to just wrench the damn bolt off from the begining?? Criticism is always the easiest solution, at the end of the day, for those who were not helping in any way from the begining!!

Perhaps you should have read post#2. Is that close enough to the beginning?

[JM 35 Sedan]

BanjoQ, I just sent you a PM on this. Give this at least another try before you follow some of the previous advice here to just break this bolt off. Let us know how it goes....and good luck to ya man Over and out on this one

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Building engine. I always use stainless bolts in that bottom hole and coat it good with (never size). Might help in the next 50 years. Walt

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Perhaps you should have read post#2. Is that close enough to the beginning?

You got that rite 51
39 posts later and we still don't have it out yet.Monday morning quarterbacks omg now what."Really" wtf break that bolt off and start a new thread and learn how to remove a broken bolt. "LOL"

R

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

You got that rite 51
39 posts later and we still don't have it out yet.Monday morning quarterbacks omg now what."Really" wtf break that bolt off and start a new thread and learn how to remove a broken bolt. "LOL"

R

Ronnie NAILED IT!

[JSeery]

Apparently some people are FAR more patient than I am! No way I would spend more than half a day taking an engine apart. It would come apart one way or the other in my hands!!

[Binx]

Guys, it's an installed engine in his garage. He just wants to change his water pumps. Let's help him do that without the cost of to-and-from tow with machine shop in-between or even mobile welding service. Geeze!

Lonnie

[Ronnie]

Well Binx tell how you would fix it? What magic potion do you recommend?
"Just sayin"

R

[petehoovie]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Binx

Guys, it's an installed engine in his garage. He just wants to change his water pumps. Let's help him do that without the cost of to-and-from tow with machine shop in-between or even mobile welding service. Geeze!

Lonnie

Lonnie - With the engine installed, I wonder how he was able to take the pictures as seen in his post #1. It must be that the radiator is removed? If this is the case, then I don't see any difference with the engine being in or out of the truck - seems that access to the bolt would be the about same....

[Ronnie]

None of this changes anything the pump must come off.
What is so hard about that?

R

[Binx]

I think he's on the right track with a rattle gun and tight socket. I'd use only an impact socket because of the added flyweight and grind the nose of the socket flat for max contact.

Lonnie

[jimvette59]

Drill the head off , take the pump off and use a vice grip to remove the threaded portion of the bolt.

[Jack E/NJ]

Binx>>>nose of the socket flat>>>

What's a socket-flat nose look like?

Jack E/NJ

[Binx]

Originally Posted by Jack E/NJ

Binx>>>nose of the socket flat>>>

What's a socket-flat nose look like?

Jack E/NJ

Crap! The semantics police have caught me.

Let me start again....

Grind the terminal HEXAGON wall opening of the socket perpendicular to the HEXAGON internal sidewall to eliminate any radius or chamfer to ensure maximum sidewall contact with fastener (bolt).

how'z that?

Lonnie

[Lanny]

Lonnie, a picture is worth a thousand words.



Click on picture to Enlarge.

[Binx]

Thanks Lanny!

Lonnie

[Mart]

Good call on the socket grinding, some of the el cheapos have a very pronounced chamfer.

Mart.

[Ronnie]

Bump to top it has been 10 days surely there must be an outcome??

R

[41LjH]

Originally Posted by banjoQ

Well, it sounds. like I am on the right track. There is a chance the pumps are OK but as difficult as it was to get the radiator out, I would be a fool not to replace them. New ones are not that expensive and have improved bearings. The radiator on the other hand is going to hurt. I've priced out getting a catalog new one that I will have to retrofit or recore the one I have and it's about the same. After shipping a new one is about $750 and recoreing is about the same. I would rather give my money to a man who runs a small business locally than a catalog. That's me. I going to have to put on the big boy pants and get those bolts out so I can move on with the project. I miss driving the truck.
Lonnie, the media makes it look worse than it really is. There are a few properties that just might go into the water sooner or later. But it has been going on for years. Thirty years ago there were bluffs as big as football fields behind those buildings. Years of pounding surf has taken its toll and now there is nothing left. They are empty now so no one is at risk, thank goodness. Glad you enjoy our little town, it's a well kept secret

Check ebay for a aluminum offshore unit. Unless you'r a puriest that's the way to go.

[banjoQ]

Sorry boys, been real busy with work. Sometimes being self employed has its drawbacks. Here's the update- pumps came off, but not without a fight. One came out on its own with heat and a hammer. The other broke off at the head of the bolt. Got the pump off and then went to work on what was left of the bolt. New ones from Speedway and the radiator was recored by a shop in San Carlos. NFI here, but Howard Radiator is the only shop on the Peninsula that works on them anymore. These guys are very familiar with the old Fords and other makes. Their parking lot looked like a fantasy used car lot to me. High quality workmanship , a bit pricey. "If your gonna play, your gonna pay". Money well spent, won't have to do it again. Trying to get new stats from All Ford in Campbell. Dropped by last week and ordered them. Should be in today or tomorrow. With luck, I should be driving the Ol' Blue truck by Saturday.
Thanks again to all that weighed in on this problem. Your patience with me is greatly appreciated. Its kind of hard to make headway on a project by grabbing an hour here and there. But you know that , I'm sure. Thnx, Q

[29AVEE8]

Did you get the broken bolt out?

[banjoQ]

Yup, it came out much easier with the pump out of the way. Able to apply heat directly to the area. Cleaned up the threads and put the new ones in. Going to pick up the thermostats tomorrow and start putting back together.

[29AVEE8]

Well done.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Excellent news banjo! Having enough of that broken bolt left outside the block, and getting the right amount of heat into the cast iron surrounding that bolt were your two best bets for getting the rest of that bolt to come out. If that bolt had broken flush or subflush with the block surface it would have been time to go with mig welding a washer to the bolt and a nut to the washer trick, which is great, IF you just happened to have a Mig welder handy, and knew exactly how to use it in this perticular case. Another option would have been drilling it out in steps of increasing drill bit diameter until you reached the threads in the block. Anyway, it looks like you're on a roll to getting back on the road.