1965 Thunderbird engine colors (etc.)

[JimNNN]

The '65 Thunderbird (mild) project car that I bought several months ago runs well, but the FE engine in it has a 2bbl carb rather than a 4bbl, and (as I understand it) all '64 and '65 came with a 390 4bbl engine, no exceptions. I figured a previous owner changed the carb out at some point, but then considered the possibility that it might be a non-original engine.



I consider myself fortunate to have an engine that runs this good and doesn't smoke for the price I paid, so I'm NOT going to change it out if it isn't an original T-bird engine, but would like to know what I'm dealing with for adjustments, timing and tune ups. I've read online (so it must be true) you can't really use engine numbers to identify 60's FE engines to specific vehicles.

When I google image "65 T-bird engine compartment" I get two different color schemes (pics don't say if engines are original.) One has the gold colored air cleaner housing and valve covers like this:






https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2013/0...d-thunderbird/





Others have a dark blue air cleaner housing with blue valve covers like this (Not my car, but mine is like this car...):









Which color was original on '65 Thunderbirds? I've also seen one with gold air filter and blue valve covers. I UNDERSTAND that people can repaint engine parts, but I'm wondering if blue was a standard color for cleaner and covers on other fords of the era, and if that could help explain why I have a 2bbl on my FE.

[dmsfrr]

Colors? If I knew I'd tell you.
I was hoping there'd be photos under the hood at this link but it's not to be.
http://tbirdparts.com/identify-your-...tbird-1964-66/

If you contact them I sure they can tell you, if someone here doesn't do it first.
They are also a good source of information and parts, used & reproduction.
http://tbirdparts.com/contact/

Originally Posted by JimNNN

... I've read online (so it must be true) you can't really use engine numbers to identify 60's FE engines to specific vehicles. ...

True, usually only to the year, and often the month & day the part was cast.
The engine blocks (and heads) were often common to several vehicles and it was the rest of the bolted on parts that made them applicable to a vehicle model. There are no engine, transmission, etc. serial numbers that match an individual vehicle, like some other brands.

There are casting numbers on the: block, heads, intake & exh manifolds, etc. if you want to look for them. Some casting numbers carried over for a year or two so the Date Codes can be helpful.
https://www.fordification.com/tech/datecodes.htm

The chart at this link may/may not be the most accurate but it may get you closer than nothing at all.
http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/engine/partnums.htm

.

[40 Deluxe]

One way to get tune up specs is to use the distributor number, then look that number up in a Chilton or Motor's Manual. This will show what engine the distributor was for. Then look up that engine for the specs.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by JimNNN

... I'm NOT going to change it out if it isn't an original T-bird engine, but would like to know what I'm dealing with for adjustments, timing and tune ups. ...

The tune-up specs of the original engines in the early 60's Thunderbirds were similar and may be close-enough, but it would be better if you can ID the parts you have now.
http://www.tpocr.com/thunderbird.html

This page/chart shows there were two styles of distributor in '65, 'conventional' and 'transistor'.
http://www.tpocr.com/thunderbird1.html
.

[5851a]

I don't think Ford used corporate blue in 65, 65 Galaxie 352 was gold and my 65 mustang with 289 was gold. Friend has a 66 mustang he bought new and it is the corporate blue.

[5851a]

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http://tbirdranch.com/6466concours.html

[JimNNN]

Originally Posted by 5851a

http://tbirdranch.com/6466concours.html

Thanks a bunch. Very helpful. Given that my car has a 2bbl, carb AND a blue air cleaner AND blue valve covers - all of which are non-spec - (and it doesn't look like the engine has been repainted) I'm going to assume at this point that the engine probably isn't original (though it's possible that Ford could've changed those colors late in the model year.)


It actually makes sense that the motor might've been changed out because the engine runs better and quieter than engines in most 90,000 mile vehicles of that era that I encounter. It seems it's absent of any significant tailpipe smoke, as well.



Then the question is: is it a 352 or a 360 instead of a 390? I'd never driven a T-Bird before this car, but I was a little underwhelmed by the acceleration during the test drive, though it does have some power. That could be a function of the 2 bbl, but might be the smaller motor too. I understand the only way to tell the diff. between the 390 and the smaller FE's is to measure the stroke. That looks easy enough. I'll try it when I change plugs or something.


I'll try to go up tomorrow and see if I can sort out the codes from the info dmsfrr gave me.

[JimNNN]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

This page/chart shows there were two styles of distributor in '65, 'conventional' and 'transistor'.
http://www.tpocr.com/thunderbird1.html
.

Thanks for this, too. Very helpful! Some great resources...thanks for the link!

[Ford blue blood]

65 Bird engines were black. The valve covers and air cleaner were gold. Point gap would be close to .017, initial timing (with our current crap called gasoline) I find works well at 10 - 12 degrees.

[rotorwrench]

1966 was the change over year for color and engines. The 360 was used mostly in pickup trucks. The 352 was used up in 1966. Folks wanted those 390 engines so the 352 was dropped that year. The stroke is the only thing to worry about. The 360 and 352 are the same stroke but the bore is a bit larger on the 360. There is not enough difference to make a change on how they run though. The 390 will beat either one. Most T-birds were 390 but motors that get trashed end up replaced with whatever will fit. I had a 64 T-bird and it was 390 4V but it had a crappy solid state ignition that I had to bypass to make it work.

[scicala]

Taken from the Motorcraft engine and tune up specifications manual, the following are tune up specs for 1965 390's:


RPM in drive for auto tran - 500 Rpm
Spark timing at idle - 6 degrees BTDC
Point gap - .017"
Dwell - 26 - 31 degrees
Spark plug type - BF42


Sal

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by JimNNN

... I'm going to assume at this point that the engine probably isn't original ...
It actually makes sense that the motor might've been changed out ...
Then the question is: is it a 352 or a 360 instead of a 390? ...

Depending on which distributor it has and what year & displacement the engine actually is, the tune up specs may or may not be different. But for best results finding out what you've got would be the way to go. IMO
.

[scicala]

The cylinder head casting number would be a good start to see what you have. It's easily visible between the valve cover and exhaust manifold on the heads.


Sal

[JimNNN]

Thanks for the additional info, guys. I'm learning a lot!


Okay, we'll I checked the T-bird today for the numbers. Couldn't find the date code (I'm guessing it may have been milled off) but I did find the more pertinent marking - the part number. Pretty hard to decipher at first. It was covered with grease AND I was reading it with a mirror AND it was upside down, but it was real clear once I figured it out.


It was "C7ME" which apparently means the engine was from a 1967 Mercury...I presume full size, but maybe not. This is good because FoMoCo didn't do any 352's in 1967, meaning I don't have to figure out if it's a 390 or a 352. It's a 390, almost for sure (since I doubt Merc did any 2bbl 428's.) I have nothing against 352's at all - they're awesome and I have one in my '61 Mercury, but I didn't want to do any tune up or timing things until I knew what the displacement was.



From what I've read, if it was from a full size Merc, it's a 270 HP unit, which makes sense because it has a bit more pull than my '61 Monterey which is 220 HP. If it was from a Comet with a 2bbl 390 it could be just a few HP less.



Thanks for the help everyone!

[scicala]

Pretty sure all Comets with a 390 were GT's with a four barrel carb and a higher compression ratio. You never know what it could be after all these years. Sounds pretty sure it's a 390 though.


Sal

[rotorwrench]

If it has the C6 transmission then it would be a really good set up to have. The C6 came out in 1966 for the new Lincoln 460 but it quickly started to show up in pickups and heavy cars more in following years. The FMX was used along with the C6 for quite a while. I had more troubles with the MX Cruise-O-Matic in the 1964 T-bird than anything else.

[JimNNN]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

If it has the C6 transmission then it would be a really good set up to have. The C6 came out in 1966 for the new Lincoln 460 but it quickly started to show up in pickups and heavy cars more in following years. The FMX was used along with the C6 for quite a while. I had more troubles with the MX Cruise-O-Matic in the 1964 T-bird than anything else.

That's a good question. I'll be honest with you, as much confidence as I have in the engine's condition (at this point), that's about how wary I am of the tranny's condition. When I put the car into gear I get the telltale "clunk." Seems to shift OK, but I've driven the car only about a mile or so thus far. I finally got it insured and licensed, so I'll be able to try things out a little better. Before much driving, though, I'll get the power steering system flushed and a new pump installed...and a mechanical oil pressure gauge put in while I have access during the PS pump change out. I don't have the greatest confidence in old Ford in-dash gauges.


I'm still so pleased I was able to figure out my engine's origins. Here's another number I found:


It was on the side of the block and said "A-10350" as I recall, but it was on a small plate that had been affixed to the (passenger) side of the block with a couple of rivets. I'm thinking maybe an identification # for a company that rebuilds engines? Didn't look like it was factory, but I don't know.

[rotorwrench]

Overhaul tags generally give the bearing finished sizes for the crankshaft & rods. It's hard to say though. Things had changed a lot since the 40s & 50s. Ford part numbers all follow a pattern of identification with the alpha prefixes. The numbers follow Ford's number system that was used clear back in the 30s to ID what part of the car the part is used on.

C7ME is a broad use item. The M likely stands for Medium and E for Engine. The C7ME-A would have been for higher CID applications. 1967 and FE block is about all it tells you. The bore will tell you more about what you have. The crankshaft will also tell more about stroke. The heads should have their own numbers but they will likely only tell you what year they are unless they are a special application. Some parts used the same number over several years until a change was made for the application or it was discontinued.

[JimNNN]

The C7ME-A would have been for higher CID applications

The marking on my block actually is "C7ME-A" . I didn't think the "-A" suffix was important because it wasn't mentioned on the few identification tables I was referred to. All of those tables did say, however, that "M" stands for Mercury.



I'm new to identifying FE blocks, so I can't say one way or the other. I am glad that my replacement engine is a 1967 because I know that the 352 was phased out in '65 or 6 and the 360 wasn't started until '68. And I don't think that Mercury used a 360, at least at that time. I just want to narrow down what the possibilities are. It's unlikely that I'll take my engine apart for purely investigative reasons. Thanks for your input...I'm learning a lot.

[rotorwrench]

M was for mercury back in the 50s and it was used as Mercury up into the 60s but the FE blocks were made for Ford generic applications. The Mercury 410 was the last Mercury specific FE engine. It had the same block that was used for the 390 and 360 but it had the 428 crank to make the 410 CID. Maybe that would be why it had an M on the 3rd digit but it would have been generic FE in 1966 & 1967 with a 4.05" bore. The motor mounts were about the only things that changed so the change was likely first for Mercury if that is what the M is intended for. All the FE blocks have bosses for 4 bolts for motor mounts after 1964 or 65 and they all have the same bell pattern. The way those bosses were drilled is the major difference. Some are drilled and some are not. The blocks made in the earlier years only had two bosses but the later ones have 4. This way a later block can be made to fit an earlier car.

Your engine could be a 360 or a 390 depending on what crankshaft it has. It's definitely not a 352 with those casting numbers.