The Ford Barn

LizardsA · 03-21-2013, 06:31 AM

Good afternoon everyone,
I'm having some electrical problems on my 1930 Sport Coupe. The first problem is with the battery. It drains itself overnight when the car is not in use. Also, we drove to the gas station, filled up and when I tried to start her, the battery was totally dead.
The second problem is that none of the lights, indicators, or horn work.
I have taken the cutoff off the generator, and it appears to be open. Is this correct? The attached pictures will hopefully help anyone who wishes to help me. The cutoff has two terminals on it, one marked "GEN", and the other marked "B". The wire going from the coil to the cutoff is attached to the "GEN" terminal, and when I rewired the car, I attached the indicators and horn to the terminal marked "B". Have I done this correctly?
Any help will as always be greatly appreciated!
Regards
Mike

Joe K · 03-21-2013, 07:07 AM

GEN is connected to the generator outlet post. B stands for Batt (another marking) which goes to your battery.

Open circuit would be correct for a cutout disconnected from the generator. You can test the coil on the cutout with a 6v battery. But be careful as the cutout presents a closed circuit when the coil pulls in. You may be able to scope out the wiring and test only the coil part. Or better (best!) see it in use? If it pulls in while you're running the engine, you know it is doing it's job.

MOre likely you have a short somewhere else in the car. Brake light switch is common for keeping the light on and running down the battery.

MOST likely there is the possibility that the battery may have a shorted plate and can't be charged well (has no capacity) You can bring your battery to an AutoZone, Sears or Walmart and they'll check it there at not cost for taking charge/rundown/capacity. Batteries that have frozen are notorious for this sort of failure.

If you've attempted all of the above and proved out the basics, then start undoing connections. Get a circuit diagram and see what you can do without. At the end of this process you should be down to the generator, the starter, the ignition. And not much else. But truthfully, you don't need much else to be mobile.

Do you have a pop-out switch? The pop-out when off is supposed to disconnect the current going to the distributor and at the same time ground the protected wire. Sometimes it does the second without doing the first. Check and see if your pop-out cable gets unnaturally warm when you shut off the car? You can check current going to the pop-out easily by unlanding the wire and connecting through an ammeter. Depending on your year car/wiring you may see this on your dash ammeter.

This the sort of test that can be applied to each connection/branch in the car.

Good luck with this. Try to get the circuit diagram specific to your car.

Joe K

steve s · 03-21-2013, 08:58 AM

Here's a wiring diagram that may help. It is an earlier version. You want the black wire from the coil going to the other junction box lug, rather than as shown. Then, the current going to the ignition system will register on the ammeter.

Herb Concord Ca · 03-21-2013, 05:16 PM

Only the post comming out of the generator is connected to the GEN terminal, all the other wires connect to the other cutout terminal.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-21-2013, 08:13 PM

With the cutout connected backwards, the cutout should have closed from the battery current and remained closed until the battery was dead. Hopefull the generator isn't also cooked by this mistake.

PC/SR · 03-21-2013, 09:41 PM

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I"m thinking you have bad connections or a bad battery to check out before you jump into the cut-out. The lights and horn are high draw accessories and suseptible to failure with bad connections and is a clue.
First, check the battery. Disconnect the (fully charged) battery and let it sit overnight. See if it has a charge sufficient to turn over the engine with the battery the next day. If so, the battery is good enough to move on. (It may still be weak, but good enough for more wiring checks.) If not, bad battery. Cheap and easy check.
If charged in the AM sufficiently to turn over the engine with the starter, clean the battery connections, including to the frame. (Was the battery really dead at the service station, or was it that the just that the engine would not turn over? Did you check the battery?) Then disconnect all the wires to the cut-out, but connect them back together with a screw and nut. You want all the wires hooked to the cut out still hooked together, with just the cut-out out of the circuit per Steve S's wiring diagram. Check that there is voltage to this wire bundle. If not, bad connection somewhere, find it. If so, see if the lights and horn work. If not, bad connections to those accessories (which includes being hooked up wrong or the switch defective.) Fix them. Again, cheap and easy check.
Check for shorts in the circuit. If the brake switch is shorted, the brake lights will be on all the time. Check it. See if there is voltage to the points with the switch off. There should not be. If so, a problem in the switch.
When the lights and horn work with the battery charged and the cut-out disconnected, check the cut out as stated above but just looking at it, it seems to be OK. Quick check, with voltage to the wires that connect to the cut out, connect them to the cut out. Is there battery voltage to the generator side? If so, cut-out is stuck, burned, etc. If not, good.
Then start the engine, see if the generator is putting out voltage in excess of the battery voltage, checking first on the Gen side and then the B side. If so, good, if not, generator trouble, a whole different discussion.
Trouble shooting should be methodical, starting from a known and confirmed good point and working forward, or a known and confirmed end point and working back. In the Model A, it is easier to start at the battery. Not just jumping in and doing something and hoping for the best.
And if you have not already done it, install a separate cable from battery ground to the engine/transmission. Most electrical problems are grounding problems.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-21-2013, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LizardsA

Good afternoon everyone,
I'm having some electrical problems on my 1930 Sport Coupe. The first problem is with the battery. It drains itself overnight when the car is not in use. Also, we drove to the gas station, filled up and when I tried to start her, the battery was totally dead.
The second problem is that none of the lights, indicators, or horn work.
I have taken the cutoff off the generator, and it appears to be open. Is this correct? The attached pictures will hopefully help anyone who wishes to help me. The cutoff has two terminals on it, one marked "GEN", and the other marked "B". The wire going from the coil to the cutoff is attached to the "GEN" terminal, and when I rewired the car, I attached the indicators and horn to the terminal marked "B". Have I done this correctly?
Any help will as always be greatly appreciated!
Regards
Mike

This wire should have been attached to the B terminal.
I'd take the generator apart and see if it's burned up inside.

Purdy Swoft · 03-22-2013, 10:26 AM

With a live wire hooked to the wrong side of the cutout would cause the generator to try and motor.The generator doesn't have the power to actually turn the engine. The generator would get hot as it killed the battery. It would be the same as leaving the car sitting over night with a stuck cut out. In years past, I've had the points stick in the cut out and kill the battery. It doesn't always burn out the generator. I would disconnect the fan belt and see if the generator would still motor before I took the generator apart. If the generator will still motor when the live wire is touched to the post on the generator, the generator is probably still good. I figure if you've never worked on model A generators you will have difficulty when tring to get the three brushes back in place over the commutator of the armature.

Joe K · 03-22-2013, 11:31 AM

I didn't catch the part in red that Tom gleaned, but I agree with Purdy. The killer here might be the motor was held stationary by the belt/crank (It WANTS to motor, of course and this helps ventilate/cool the generator)

So the jury is out on a failure.

I also like Purdy's "will it motor" jury trial.

Joe K

LizardsA · 03-25-2013, 11:14 AM

Ok everyone, I moved the wire from the coil to now connect to the "B" terminal, and voila! success. The car ran beautifully all through the weekend, starting and running her on Saturday morning and then again in the afternoon, and then repeated this on Sunday. On both days, she started without problems, and the battery seems to be holding up just fine. Thanks for all the advice and the help
Regards
Mike

03-21-2013, 07:07 AM	#2
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: Electrical Woes GEN is connected to the generator outlet post. B stands for Batt (another marking) which goes to your battery. Open circuit would be correct for a cutout disconnected from the generator. You can test the coil on the cutout with a 6v battery. But be careful as the cutout presents a closed circuit when the coil pulls in. You may be able to scope out the wiring and test only the coil part. Or better (best!) see it in use? If it pulls in while you're running the engine, you know it is doing it's job. MOre likely you have a short somewhere else in the car. Brake light switch is common for keeping the light on and running down the battery. MOST likely there is the possibility that the battery may have a shorted plate and can't be charged well (has no capacity) You can bring your battery to an AutoZone, Sears or Walmart and they'll check it there at not cost for taking charge/rundown/capacity. Batteries that have frozen are notorious for this sort of failure. If you've attempted all of the above and proved out the basics, then start undoing connections. Get a circuit diagram and see what you can do without. At the end of this process you should be down to the generator, the starter, the ignition. And not much else. But truthfully, you don't need much else to be mobile. Do you have a pop-out switch? The pop-out when off is supposed to disconnect the current going to the distributor and at the same time ground the protected wire. Sometimes it does the second without doing the first. Check and see if your pop-out cable gets unnaturally warm when you shut off the car? You can check current going to the pop-out easily by unlanding the wire and connecting through an ammeter. Depending on your year car/wiring you may see this on your dash ammeter. This the sort of test that can be applied to each connection/branch in the car. Good luck with this. Try to get the circuit diagram specific to your car. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

03-21-2013, 08:58 AM	#3
steve s Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kalamazoo Posts: 1,656	Re: Electrical Woes Here's a wiring diagram that may help. It is an earlier version. You want the black wire from the coil going to the other junction box lug, rather than as shown. Then, the current going to the ignition system will register on the ammeter.

03-21-2013, 05:16 PM	#4
Herb Concord Ca Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Concord CA Posts: 635	Re: Electrical Woes Only the post comming out of the generator is connected to the GEN terminal, all the other wires connect to the other cutout terminal.

03-21-2013, 08:13 PM	#5
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Electrical Woes With the cutout connected backwards, the cutout should have closed from the battery current and remained closed until the battery was dead. Hopefull the generator isn't also cooked by this mistake.

03-21-2013, 09:41 PM	#6
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,278	Re: Electrical Woes Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I"m thinking you have bad connections or a bad battery to check out before you jump into the cut-out. The lights and horn are high draw accessories and suseptible to failure with bad connections and is a clue. First, check the battery. Disconnect the (fully charged) battery and let it sit overnight. See if it has a charge sufficient to turn over the engine with the battery the next day. If so, the battery is good enough to move on. (It may still be weak, but good enough for more wiring checks.) If not, bad battery. Cheap and easy check. If charged in the AM sufficiently to turn over the engine with the starter, clean the battery connections, including to the frame. (Was the battery really dead at the service station, or was it that the just that the engine would not turn over? Did you check the battery?) Then disconnect all the wires to the cut-out, but connect them back together with a screw and nut. You want all the wires hooked to the cut out still hooked together, with just the cut-out out of the circuit per Steve S's wiring diagram. Check that there is voltage to this wire bundle. If not, bad connection somewhere, find it. If so, see if the lights and horn work. If not, bad connections to those accessories (which includes being hooked up wrong or the switch defective.) Fix them. Again, cheap and easy check. Check for shorts in the circuit. If the brake switch is shorted, the brake lights will be on all the time. Check it. See if there is voltage to the points with the switch off. There should not be. If so, a problem in the switch. When the lights and horn work with the battery charged and the cut-out disconnected, check the cut out as stated above but just looking at it, it seems to be OK. Quick check, with voltage to the wires that connect to the cut out, connect them to the cut out. Is there battery voltage to the generator side? If so, cut-out is stuck, burned, etc. If not, good. Then start the engine, see if the generator is putting out voltage in excess of the battery voltage, checking first on the Gen side and then the B side. If so, good, if not, generator trouble, a whole different discussion. Trouble shooting should be methodical, starting from a known and confirmed good point and working forward, or a known and confirmed end point and working back. In the Model A, it is easier to start at the battery. Not just jumping in and doing something and hoping for the best. And if you have not already done it, install a separate cable from battery ground to the engine/transmission. Most electrical problems are grounding problems. Last edited by PC/SR; 03-21-2013 at 09:49 PM.

03-22-2013, 10:26 AM	#8
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Electrical Woes With a live wire hooked to the wrong side of the cutout would cause the generator to try and motor.The generator doesn't have the power to actually turn the engine. The generator would get hot as it killed the battery. It would be the same as leaving the car sitting over night with a stuck cut out. In years past, I've had the points stick in the cut out and kill the battery. It doesn't always burn out the generator. I would disconnect the fan belt and see if the generator would still motor before I took the generator apart. If the generator will still motor when the live wire is touched to the post on the generator, the generator is probably still good. I figure if you've never worked on model A generators you will have difficulty when tring to get the three brushes back in place over the commutator of the armature.

03-22-2013, 11:31 AM	#9
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: Electrical Woes I didn't catch the part in red that Tom gleaned, but I agree with Purdy. The killer here might be the motor was held stationary by the belt/crank (It WANTS to motor, of course and this helps ventilate/cool the generator) So the jury is out on a failure. I also like Purdy's "will it motor" jury trial. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

03-25-2013, 11:14 AM	#10
LizardsA Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Randburg, Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 225	Re: Electrical Woes Ok everyone, I moved the wire from the coil to now connect to the "B" terminal, and voila! success. The car ran beautifully all through the weekend, starting and running her on Saturday morning and then again in the afternoon, and then repeated this on Sunday. On both days, she started without problems, and the battery seems to be holding up just fine. Thanks for all the advice and the help Regards Mike