'36 221 - rebuildable??

[sjaakslinger]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and totally new to these old Fords and flatheads. I just bought a 36 Touring Sedan and had it shipped from Pennsylvania to The Netherlands. The car seems to be complete and in decent shape. We've started to inspect the engine first to see what we got ourselves into...

We pulled the heads. They have the 68- prefix, I've understoord these heads were installed at a later stage, so the engine probably was rebuilt before. No LB marking found. The car whas a late 36 VIN though. Only 'SPH' in the area between the head and intake manifold. Anyone know what this means?

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The driver's side looked ok I guess. Working on an engine is new to me, so any advice/info is welcome. The cylinders are smooth and were dry. Some coolant entered when removing the heads. What strikes me is that all the valves, except for one, are open.

We had good hopes after pulling the driver's side head, but the passenger side is different. The most rear cylinder was filled with coolant (I assume) and lots of crud. The cylinder wall is very rough with rust. Same for it's valves. The head for that cylinder is the same.

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Next will be taking of the intake manifold to have a good look inside.

Anyone any pointers/thoughts/tips/etc.??

What I'm wondering is how all the valves, except one, are open. And what happened to that wet cylinder. Leaking head gasket? Something internally? Anyone any experience with an engine looking like this? Thanks.

Dennis

[frnkeore]

The reason for the late heads, is that on it's last rebuild, they put domed piston in.

The valves are just stuck open. You can probably tap most of them back down.

As for main bearings, you'll have to pull a main bearing cap and check for inserts.

Check to see if there is a plate (each side) on the front of the block, where the WP would go on the later blocks. You could have a '38 style, 21 stud block.

My '35 truck engine had a late block replacement. Same heads and pistons as yours.

[corvette8n]

Welcome to the barn, looks like you have your work cut out for you. Hang around here and you’ll learn a lot.

Get yourself this book
https://shop.efv8.org/collections/fo...book-softbound

[Ggmac]

Welcome . I’ve got 2 late 36 21 stud engines with SPH stamped on the deck , both have insert bearings. I’ve tried to determine the SHP stamping but have 2 suggestions from others , one was steel pistons and sleeves and the other I forgot . Oh well old age .
That motor looks better than the two I cleaned up . Id check to see if the pistons are steel as they use different rings , if your intent was to rering and get it running .
Good luck .
Gary

[Ggmac]

Clean up the top of a piston and check for numbers stamped in for over size .

[sjaakslinger]

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Thanks! #3 Already got it. [emoji106]

Any ideas what might have caused that wet corroded cylinder?



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[Ggmac]

Check for obvious cyl head gasket leak , spark plug missing its gasket , head crack or warped or last a crack in the block .
Don’t forget these have small welch plugs on the bottom oil pan rail that can leak coolant into the oil . Make sure to replace them .

[Ggmac]

That really doesnt look that bad . If I knew how to post pictures, Id show you mine before I reringed it .

[sjaakslinger]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Yeah, pictures are a bit tricky. In Tapatalk on my phone, I can apparantly upload them directly into my post.

On my tablet (Fordbarn website) it's different. When replying, select 'Go Advanced', then select the Attachment symbol first (paperclip symbol), add the pictures and than go back to the reply field (page back). Then the uploaded pictures could be selected through that same attachment icon.

Not really userfriendly.


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[Bored&Stroked]

The valves are up because they are stuck in the valve guides - which is pretty common given this thing has probably been sitting for decades.

The cylinder with the rust obviously had water in it - the question is from where? Did the car have an air cleaner on it when you got it? Is it possible that water came in through the carb? That would be your best situation. As others noted, can be a blown gasket, can be a cracked block, can have fatal issues or not. etc.. One thing is for sure, you can't just throw it back together and expect it to run well . . . if at all. It is guaranteed that the valve seats are rusted, the rings will have issues on that one cylinder, etc.. Pull the engine, get the correct adapter to mount it on a stand (side mount) and get into the details of it.

The right thing to do is to pull the engine and go through it - otherwise you have no idea what you're dealing with, if it can be rebuilt, etc.. I'd highly recommend that you locate some very experienced flathead guys to work with (if at all possible). These engines are relatively simple, but you still need to know the nuances about them, what to check for, what to do, what not to do, etc.. Also, any machine work that needs to be done needs to be done by a machine shop that has extensive flathead experience - otherwise all sorts of bad things can happen.

Best of luck - thanks for coming on the Barn and we look forward to seeing you getting your 36 on the road!

B&S

[mfirth]

As you "clean up" that engine you might want to read GB Sicsion's post on preasure testing the block. Best wishes for a fun & GR8 build.

[ronn]

too bad you didnt buy a spare motor and put it into the trunk when you shipped the car over.......

would have come in handy.

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by ronn

too bad you didnt buy a spare motor and put it into the trunk when you shipped the car over.......

would have come in handy.

Wouldn't have fit in the trunk. We considered putting one in the rear, taking the back seat out. We were afraid though the floor wouldnt take it. Besides, we couldn't lift a spare engine by hand. But yeah, would have been very usefull.

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[sjaakslinger]

Took off the intake manifold today. What a surprise awaited us...[emoji3061] I don't know what happened there, but what a mess. It's the first engine I'm taking apart though, so maybe I'm wrong here. I hope so...

Dried up oil en goey everywhere. The pistons are steel, I checked that, but I couldn't find any stamps or writings about overbore. I measured the bore, says 3.08". The valves had 'Ford F' and 'Ford R' stamps.

Next will be the oil pan....

Dennis

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[cas3]

Yup ! thats a crusty flathead ! CALLING MART...TO THE FRONT DESK PLEASE !

[Brian]

Don't get discouraged- yet!! Keep at it. You'll need to get it fully stripped, cleaned up before you really can get an indication of what you've got. If it means anything, myself, and no doubt many others have rebuilt engines that initially looked as bad as yours. good luck!

[frnkeore]

That's about what a high mileage engine looked like, in the early '60's, when I became a mechanic. The worst one I had to clean, was 215 Chev. I was a good thing that I was young (18) and wanted to be a mechanic, real bad.

You can thank the old non-detergent oil for that mess.

In those days, "high mileage" meant, 70K. You had a hard time getting rid of a 100K car!!! Many were just junked with that kind of mileage.

[Mart]

It's surprising how an engine can be oily and rusty at the same time. Lots of condensation I suppose.

I would carefully inspect all around the pan rail for cracks before launching in and trying to dismantle the top end.

I rebuilt a couple of engines that were pretty bad and you might enjoy some of the videos I made.

Crusty Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...nhHBvLs12GnGQu

Ol'59 Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...THMrri6-8w-LBI

Lots of discussions here lately about removing valves.
Lots of discussions about head studs too.

Any questions just ask.

Is the motor out of the car? Are you aware to avoid mounting the motor on a conventional engine stand via the half bellhousing?

Mart.

[pistonbroke]

I wish the last V12 Lincoln I did would have looked as good as your V8 Ford. Like Mart said pull the pan and check for cracks along the block where the pan gasket sits. Then you know if you need to go farther. So far what you've shown us is a basic rebuild with possibly a sleeve in one cylinder. Keep the pictures coming with your questions . We will be here. Tim

[rotorwrench]

The car was likely used for mostly short trips where the engine didn't fully warm up to operating temperature. Engines used this way get sludged up bad if operated for long periods like that. The water in the cylinder could have been coolant. If it was then there is likely coolant in the pan too.

Climate of long term storage has a lot to do with condition of engine internals. A well stored car would have had less corrosion but could've still had some depending on temperature changes and relative humidity. I've seen a lot worse but the cylinder could be a candidate for resleeve. The cylinder walls on the old 221s are not all that thick. Whether it is a large bearing engine (LB) or an older poured babbitt engine will be the thing a person needs to know.

[sjaakslinger]

Thanks a lot everyone for all the input.

@Mart
We tried to pull the pan yesterday, but thought we knew better than the repair manual. We couldn't get the pan past those radius rod (?). We did raise the engine though. The manual tells to turn the crankshaft, but the engine is stuck. We'll give it another try tomorrow. and loosen those rods.

I'll check out your videos, thanks. So the motor is still in the car. I was hoping to get a good impression on it's state before pulling the engine out. I did get a peek after lowering the pan a bit...same rusty wet look though. Didn't check the pan rail yet. Thanks for that mounting tip....we'll keep it in mind in case we pull the engine.

The car's history isn't really clear. It spent the last 20 years in a barn in Pennsylvania. It was last registered in '66, also in Pennsylvania. It looks like they did indeed work on the engine before. Till now everything came off pretty easily. Even the rusted exhaust link pipe and the exhaust at the manifolds. We inspected the bottom of the car. Looks pretty solid, besides the obvious surface rust. The car seems complete as well. I did take a hit at the left front some point, braking the bumper bracket and bending the fender and grill a little bit. It caused the left headlight to be a bit closer to the cowling. The chassis seems straight though.

Depending on the engine being an LB engine or not and salvageable or not I'll have to decide what route to take here. It won't be a full resoration in any case, but a technical restoration and just drive it. Slight interior improvement, rust treatment on the outside and go. Maybe juice brakes, depending on it's stopping abilities.[emoji16]

Dennis

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[Mart]

Whatever happens, I can't imagine a scenario where the motor does not need to come out. I would advise just bite the bullet and pull it. (I'm a poet). If in doubt yank it out. (told you).

Mart.

[rotorwrench]

I'd have to agree with Mart. The condition warrants work that is much better and easier done out of the car. As was mentioned, an engine stand adapter that connects the the exhaust ports is much better than worrying about cracking the rear bell area. The casting is not all that thick on the rear end there.

The one rusty piston is likely the sticking point. Just getting the valves out is a big job and they should come out to insure serviceability. If the engine was not so internally fowled and the cylinders were all still void of corrosion, things would be different. That one is just beyond that state. Everything needs to be cleaned & checked.

[sjaakslinger]

Yeah, we'll probably pull the engine. I measured the bore btw, says 3.08". As far as this is accurate, the measuring caliper was a relatively cheap one.

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[Mart]

That's 17.5 thou over standard. Could be 15, could be 20 depending on how accurate the measuring method. Any marks on the good pistons?
standard bore is 3-1/16"

[Ggmac]

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Isnt std 3.087?

[rotorwrench]

It would 3 1/16" or 3.0625. If it was previouy overhauled with a bore job then the oversize should be on top of the pistons.

[jimTN]

Its hard to tell from the pics but most of those engines had sleeves. The easiest way to work that bad cyl may be to break the piston out driving from below, worst case cutting the rod into, then -putting a sleeve in that cyl bored to match what you bore the other cyl's. As wore as the engine is I would suspect it will need boring all cyls.

[Ggmac]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

It would 3 1/16" or 3.0625. If it was previouy overhauled with a bore job then the oversize should be on top of the pistons.

Thanks . It seems like Im losing it . One foot in front of the other .
Gary

[rotorwrench]

I think the tin can sleeves came later but it depends on which block it has. The 21-stud block doesn't have as much room for sleeves as the 24-stud blocks.

[Rodrelic]

Does it have water pump block off plates on the block just below the head mounted water pumps?

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by Rodrelic

Does it have water pump block off plates on the block just below the head mounted water pumps?

99% sure it doesn't. Lots of mud and cr@p there, but at first glance I didn't see a plate and bolts.

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[sjaakslinger]

Well, we didn't manage to get the oil pan off. The engine is stuck, so we couldn't turn the crankshaft to clear the pan inside. So, the unevitable is next....taking the engine out.

I cleaned a small piece of the oil pan rail, but didn't see any cracks (yet).

I did get a peek inside though. Same rusty appearance. I was able to measure the distance between the most rear visible studs. If I'm correct, that's the rear main bearing? Measures around 3 1/4".

So am I looking at an LB engine!?[emoji850]

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[bobH]

Regarding that 3.08 measurement.... It depends on how that was obtained. If he measured BELOW the ridge, it likely just indicates a worn cylinder, based on standard bore. If he measured the diameter ON the ridge, then the 'puzzle' indicated in the previous posts still applies. (Opinion) In any event... I see a lot of work, and a fixable engine. And, if an LB, in my opinion, I'd go for it. (I'm prejudiced, I have some good memories with an LB.)

[rottenron36]

Don't forget how hard it is to find rod bearings, and how expensive they are!

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by sjaakslinger

Well, we didn't manage to get the oil pan off. The engine is stuck, so we couldn't turn the crankshaft to clear the pan inside. So, the unevitable is next....taking the engine out.

I cleaned a small piece of the oil pan rail, but didn't see any cracks (yet).

I did get a peek inside though. Same rusty appearance. I was able to measure the distance between the most rear visible studs. If I'm correct, that's the rear main bearing? Measures around 3 1/4".

So am I looking at an LB engine!?[emoji850]

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3 1/4" would be LB block.

[GB SISSON]

Believe me, when I can 'start 'em in the field' and drive them away, that is my favorite kind of old truck adventure. I have pulled that off maybe six times in 50 years of picking up old fords. Those with mechanical brakes were extra fun because you actually could start driving them as is (if one happens to live on the back side of a rural island). BUT.... your engine is not a candidate for that particular brand of fun. They are sooo difficult to work in in the vehicle and sooo nice on a stand. Do yourself a favor and pull that bad tooth out. It will feel much better after that!

[sjaakslinger]

Ok, working towards the inevitable...taking the engine out. We removed the grill and radiator as well as the passenger toe board and the trans cover plate. Next will be the shifter and clutch linkage.

Any tips/pointers for getting the engine and trans out? Where is the (approx.) center of gravity of the engine+trans? Might help in lifting... Thanks.

Dennis

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[Mart]

Somewhere near here.

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by Mart

Somewhere near here.

[emoji106]

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[KiWinUS]

Too late now but the grill can stay in.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by jimTN

Its hard to tell from the pics but most of those engines had sleeves. The easiest way to work that bad cyl may be to break the piston out driving from below, worst case cutting the rod into, then -putting a sleeve in that cyl bored to match what you bore the other cyl's. As wore as the engine is I would suspect it will need boring all cyls.

DO NOT damage the rod if at all possible! They are weight matched as a set at the factory so keep all eight together. Kill the piston instead. The rod bearings are full floating so are subject to wear on both surfaces. The bearings are available in various combinations of oversize outer diameters (the rod is bored/honed oversize to match) and undersize inside diameters (to fit a reground crankshaft). The flanged rod bearings are on ebay in various sizes. Get everything measured before ordering bearings. It's amazing how well these full floaters hold up. You may not even need new ones.

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Too late now but the grill can stay in.

Thanks, but it needed some attention anyway.

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[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

DO NOT damage the rod if at all possible! They are weight matched as a set at the factory so keep all eight together. Kill the piston instead. The rod bearings are full floating so are subject to wear on both surfaces. The bearings are available in various combinations of oversize outer diameters (the rod is bored/honed oversize to match) and undersize inside diameters (to fit a reground crankshaft). The flanged rod bearings are on ebay in various sizes. Get everything measured before ordering bearings. It's amazing how well these full floaters hold up. You may not even need new ones.

Thanks. Besides the rods, what else? I suppose the valves and springs would need replacing anyways?

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[tubman]

Some of the valve train components are bound to be damaged on removal in an engine like this. The later (non-mushroom stem valves and related) parts from an 8BA type engine are easier to get, easier to work with, and easier to pay for (at least here in the states).

[sjaakslinger]

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Do those later non-mushroom types fit in my 36 engine?

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[Mart]

Yes.

[sjaakslinger]

Thanks. Trying to figure out which parts of the engine I should definately safe and which can/should be replaced.

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[sugarmaker]

Your doing good! That bad boy needs to come out! It looks like it will need LOTS of love!
Get a engine lifter hooked on to that where mart points and pick that engine out.
Looking forward to your next steps! Good pictures by the way!
Regards,
Chris

[Mart]

Don't rule out being able to source a replacement motor. There are French and German flatheads, all of which could be made to work in your car. Plus there were a lot of USA cars in Holland back in the day. Do you know anyone in Holland into hot rods? They might have leads on motors. I know a couple of people in Holland.

[AZ34]

Reposted in a new thread.

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by Mart

Don't rule out being able to source a replacement motor. There are French and German flatheads, all of which could be made to work in your car. Plus there were a lot of USA cars in Holland back in the day. Do you know anyone in Holland into hot rods? They might have leads on motors. I know a couple of people in Holland.

No, I don't know any 'flathead people' here. If my engine isn't a rebuild candidate, I have to really think it over about the car. Too many other car projects to go crazy on the Ford. Maybe if I sell another car... But I'm not there yet.[emoji16]

Still moderately positive about the engine. Hoping to pull it tomorrow and check it out more. Especially the main bearings.

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[sjaakslinger]

Got the engine out. Went pretty ok. Wasn't sure about those 2 horizontal rods coming from the frame going through the sides of the bell housing. We pulled the engine forward and got it all clear.

Next will be finding the proper way to mount the engine on an engine stand. If anyone has some pictures of what they use, it would be appreciated.

Not so nice was to find out the left front took a hit at some point. That crossmember/bar between the front wheels has a bend. [emoji19] I'll post some pics and questions in a new thread.

Dennis

I think the car looks a bit like a toothless grandma now....

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[cas3]

The side of the block where the exhaust ports are is a 45% angle. Just use a manifold for a bolt pattern, and cut a tube that fits your engine stand at 45% and weld it up. Note the front two bolts are bigger

[sjaakslinger]

We're working on a plate to mount the engine stand on the exhaust manifold port. Would a 5mm/1/5 inch plate be thick enough?

Dennis

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[frnkeore]

6mm would be better but, I think 5mm will work fine.

[Mart]

No You want at least 8mm.

[sjaakslinger]

Ok, so I guess 2 of them together to be sure.

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[bobH]

I don't 'speak-mm', so I converted from 3/8 and came up with something a little heavier that what Mart posted. So, as post 58 suggests, I'd go with the two. But, from my perspective, being old and lazy, I'd BUY a mount... previously discussed and posted here on the barn. (obviously, just opinion)

[Mart]

8mm is 5/16" and 3/8 is just a bit less than 10mm.

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by bobH

I don't 'speak-mm', so I converted from 3/8 and came up with something a little heavier that what Mart posted. So, as post 58 suggests, I'd go with the two. But, from my perspective, being old and lazy, I'd BUY a mount... previously discussed and posted here on the barn. (obviously, just opinion)

Being in The Netherlands makes getting a mount a bit difficult, they're not readily available. We came up with design like in the pics. We found a tube just thick enough to snugly fit in the stand. We used the exhaust manifold as a template and makes 2 plates that go together. To be sure.

We'll weld some additional triangle shaped support brackets between the tube and the plate.


Any other suggestions are welcome.

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[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by sjaakslinger

Being in The Netherlands makes getting a mount a bit difficult, they're not readily available. We came up with design like in the pics. We found a tube just thick enough to snugly fit in the stand. We used the exhaust manifold as a template and makes 2 plates that go together. To be sure.

We'll weld some additional triangle shaped support brackets between the tube and the plate.


Any other suggestions are welcome.

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You are a quick study. That looks exactly right and you'll have that engine mounted in no time, and mounted the safe and correct way! Before long there WILL be a flathead guy in your neighborhood. You.

[sjaakslinger]

Thought I'd post some of the small progress we made. We decided to work on the studs and valves first before mounting the engine in a stand. Much steadier like this. It does mean we haven't pulled the pan yet to verify if it is indeed an LB block, but it's surprise me if it isn't.

Since we'll install new valves, springs, etc., I handled them the hard way. The guides were so stuck that I couldn't get the horseshoe clips out, even if they moved. So I cut the springs, wriggled the lower clip out. Then removed the spring remains, lifted the valve and cut the valve stem just below the valve. Then I could hammer down the valve guide with a small tube.

And I got most of the studs out, only 4 to go. The top ones seem the hardest. Took a lot of heating with an induction heater tool, Mystery oil, etc. And the 'offset type' stud remover tool. It's a bit hard for me to tell how much force I can apply with my torque wrench. Don't want to break a stud.... Easy does it I guess.

There does seem to be a crack between a stud hole and a water hole.[emoji19] We'll have the block magnafluxed at some point. Any thought on those kind of cracks?

To be continued.

Dennis

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[Mart]

Those cracks are very common and not normally judged to be a problem. People joke that those cracks have Ford part numbers.

[leon bee]

That is looking way better already and I'm hoping it all goes well.

[sjaakslinger]

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Originally Posted by Mart

Those cracks are very common and not normally judged to be a problem. People joke that those cracks have Ford part numbers.

That's somewhat comforting. [emoji16]

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[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by leon bee

That is looking way better already and I'm hoping it all goes well.

Thanks. Yeah, so far it's not hopeless I guess.

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[OldGold360]

Originally Posted by sjaakslinger

Being in The Netherlands makes getting a mount a bit difficult, they're not readily available. We came up with design like in the pics. We found a tube just thick enough to snugly fit in the stand. We used the exhaust manifold as a template and makes 2 plates that go together. To be sure.

We'll weld some additional triangle shaped support brackets between the tube and the plate.


Any other suggestions are welcome.

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That’s pretty much exactly how I made mine. Mine is 3/8” thick steel, which is probably overkill, but it’s what I had.

[Rodrelic]

I have been collecting bearing sets as they come up cheap for about 30 years, I can see what I have for full floating. I have 2 early motors that are not fresh so after I have saved some for that no sense in hoarding the rest.

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by Rodrelic

I have been collecting bearing sets as they come up cheap for about 30 years, I can see what I have for full floating. I have 2 early motors that are not fresh so after I have saved some for that no sense in hoarding the rest.

[emoji106]

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[sjaakslinger]

Got all the studs out. In 1 piece![emoji817][emoji3060] Thanks to heating, Mystery oil, tapping, a $20,- stud remover tool and patience.

It probably helps that the engine was overhauled at some point way back in the days.

So far the decks look ok by visual inspection. I got 14 valve assemblies completely out, 2 are limited by the position of the camshaft. Those will come later.

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[sjaakslinger]

[emoji120][emoji322] It's an LB! [emoji16]

So finally we have the 221 mounted in an engine stand and were able to get 1 of the main bearing caps of. A bit expected, or at least hoped for, it turned out to have the insert bearing! I don't have any experience with these engines, but I'd say it all looks pretty decent so far. The bearings seems to be stock size. They have a 'Ford A' stamp and a 'D'. Anyone know what these stand for?

Got one piston out so far. Seems to be stock size, it measures 3.06".

The oil pump is stuck. Any suggestions how to get it out? Any other suggestions how to go from here are welcome as well. Thanks.

Dennis

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[Brian]

steel pistons!
to remove the oil pump, after undoing the one bolt that holds it into place, use a big wrench on the body of the pump to twist it for sideways, this will break the bond that has formed and allow you to then lift the pump up and out

[Mart]

As Brian stated, a twist can get things moving. Remove the flywheel first so you have more elbow room. A clockwise twist will assist removal if the shaft is tight due to the helix on the gears. A good pipe wrench is useful for turning the pump. Be careful and only apply moderate force. You can break the pumps.

Mart.

[hoss73ford]

I thought '36s were still babbitt pounders? Not many around who still do babbitt work.

[deuce lover]

Insert mains were introduced by Ford in '36,(mid year?).

[sjaakslinger]

We have most of the engine apart now. Almost time to have it thoroughly inspected and magnafluxed. We did find a small hole in 1 of the connecting rod journals. No idea if this can be fixed, our rebuilder will tell, but I'd appreciate any ideas here.

We're getting to the point (assuming the engine is rebuildable) where we have to figure out what to reuse and what to replace. Any advice is welcome here. The car is 36 Touring Sedan which most probably will stay as original as possible. No big exterior and interior upgrade, just drive it with the worn patina look. So we're thinking of keeping the engine basic, no big pimpin' here. Bit of a budget rebuild, as far as possible.

The 221 had steel dome pistons. A quick search tells me those aren't the cheapest and not widely available. Aluminum good enough?

The connecting rods....reuse if possible?

Valves are shot...will be replaced. The non-mushroom type? Our rebuilder already suggested the adjustable tappets/lifters. Pros/cons?

Water pumps, oil pump and fuel pump....(self) rebuild?

I guess the ring gear is shot (see pic)?

Thanks.

Dennis

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