'36 221 - rebuildable??

[sjaakslinger]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and totally new to these old Fords and flatheads. I just bought a 36 Touring Sedan and had it shipped from Pennsylvania to The Netherlands. The car seems to be complete and in decent shape. We've started to inspect the engine first to see what we got ourselves into...

We pulled the heads. They have the 68- prefix, I've understoord these heads were installed at a later stage, so the engine probably was rebuilt before. No LB marking found. The car whas a late 36 VIN though. Only 'SPH' in the area between the head and intake manifold. Anyone know what this means?

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The driver's side looked ok I guess. Working on an engine is new to me, so any advice/info is welcome. The cylinders are smooth and were dry. Some coolant entered when removing the heads. What strikes me is that all the valves, except for one, are open.

We had good hopes after pulling the driver's side head, but the passenger side is different. The most rear cylinder was filled with coolant (I assume) and lots of crud. The cylinder wall is very rough with rust. Same for it's valves. The head for that cylinder is the same.

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Next will be taking of the intake manifold to have a good look inside.

Anyone any pointers/thoughts/tips/etc.??

What I'm wondering is how all the valves, except one, are open. And what happened to that wet cylinder. Leaking head gasket? Something internally? Anyone any experience with an engine looking like this? Thanks.

Dennis

[frnkeore]

The reason for the late heads, is that on it's last rebuild, they put domed piston in.

The valves are just stuck open. You can probably tap most of them back down.

As for main bearings, you'll have to pull a main bearing cap and check for inserts.

Check to see if there is a plate (each side) on the front of the block, where the WP would go on the later blocks. You could have a '38 style, 21 stud block.

My '35 truck engine had a late block replacement. Same heads and pistons as yours.

[corvette8n]

Welcome to the barn, looks like you have your work cut out for you. Hang around here and you’ll learn a lot.

Get yourself this book
https://shop.efv8.org/collections/fo...book-softbound

[Ggmac]

Welcome . I’ve got 2 late 36 21 stud engines with SPH stamped on the deck , both have insert bearings. I’ve tried to determine the SHP stamping but have 2 suggestions from others , one was steel pistons and sleeves and the other I forgot . Oh well old age .
That motor looks better than the two I cleaned up . Id check to see if the pistons are steel as they use different rings , if your intent was to rering and get it running .
Good luck .
Gary

[Ggmac]

Clean up the top of a piston and check for numbers stamped in for over size .

[sjaakslinger]

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Thanks! #3 Already got it. [emoji106]

Any ideas what might have caused that wet corroded cylinder?



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[Ggmac]

Check for obvious cyl head gasket leak , spark plug missing its gasket , head crack or warped or last a crack in the block .
Don’t forget these have small welch plugs on the bottom oil pan rail that can leak coolant into the oil . Make sure to replace them .

[Ggmac]

That really doesnt look that bad . If I knew how to post pictures, Id show you mine before I reringed it .

[sjaakslinger]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Yeah, pictures are a bit tricky. In Tapatalk on my phone, I can apparantly upload them directly into my post.

On my tablet (Fordbarn website) it's different. When replying, select 'Go Advanced', then select the Attachment symbol first (paperclip symbol), add the pictures and than go back to the reply field (page back). Then the uploaded pictures could be selected through that same attachment icon.

Not really userfriendly.


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[Bored&Stroked]

The valves are up because they are stuck in the valve guides - which is pretty common given this thing has probably been sitting for decades.

The cylinder with the rust obviously had water in it - the question is from where? Did the car have an air cleaner on it when you got it? Is it possible that water came in through the carb? That would be your best situation. As others noted, can be a blown gasket, can be a cracked block, can have fatal issues or not. etc.. One thing is for sure, you can't just throw it back together and expect it to run well . . . if at all. It is guaranteed that the valve seats are rusted, the rings will have issues on that one cylinder, etc.. Pull the engine, get the correct adapter to mount it on a stand (side mount) and get into the details of it.

The right thing to do is to pull the engine and go through it - otherwise you have no idea what you're dealing with, if it can be rebuilt, etc.. I'd highly recommend that you locate some very experienced flathead guys to work with (if at all possible). These engines are relatively simple, but you still need to know the nuances about them, what to check for, what to do, what not to do, etc.. Also, any machine work that needs to be done needs to be done by a machine shop that has extensive flathead experience - otherwise all sorts of bad things can happen.

Best of luck - thanks for coming on the Barn and we look forward to seeing you getting your 36 on the road!

B&S

[mfirth]

As you "clean up" that engine you might want to read GB Sicsion's post on preasure testing the block. Best wishes for a fun & GR8 build.

[ronn]

too bad you didnt buy a spare motor and put it into the trunk when you shipped the car over.......

would have come in handy.

[sjaakslinger]

Originally Posted by ronn

too bad you didnt buy a spare motor and put it into the trunk when you shipped the car over.......

would have come in handy.

Wouldn't have fit in the trunk. We considered putting one in the rear, taking the back seat out. We were afraid though the floor wouldnt take it. Besides, we couldn't lift a spare engine by hand. But yeah, would have been very usefull.

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[sjaakslinger]

Took off the intake manifold today. What a surprise awaited us...[emoji3061] I don't know what happened there, but what a mess. It's the first engine I'm taking apart though, so maybe I'm wrong here. I hope so...

Dried up oil en goey everywhere. The pistons are steel, I checked that, but I couldn't find any stamps or writings about overbore. I measured the bore, says 3.08". The valves had 'Ford F' and 'Ford R' stamps.

Next will be the oil pan....

Dennis

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[cas3]

Yup ! thats a crusty flathead ! CALLING MART...TO THE FRONT DESK PLEASE !

[Brian]

Don't get discouraged- yet!! Keep at it. You'll need to get it fully stripped, cleaned up before you really can get an indication of what you've got. If it means anything, myself, and no doubt many others have rebuilt engines that initially looked as bad as yours. good luck!

[frnkeore]

That's about what a high mileage engine looked like, in the early '60's, when I became a mechanic. The worst one I had to clean, was 215 Chev. I was a good thing that I was young (18) and wanted to be a mechanic, real bad.

You can thank the old non-detergent oil for that mess.

In those days, "high mileage" meant, 70K. You had a hard time getting rid of a 100K car!!! Many were just junked with that kind of mileage.

[Mart]

It's surprising how an engine can be oily and rusty at the same time. Lots of condensation I suppose.

I would carefully inspect all around the pan rail for cracks before launching in and trying to dismantle the top end.

I rebuilt a couple of engines that were pretty bad and you might enjoy some of the videos I made.

Crusty Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...nhHBvLs12GnGQu

Ol'59 Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...THMrri6-8w-LBI

Lots of discussions here lately about removing valves.
Lots of discussions about head studs too.

Any questions just ask.

Is the motor out of the car? Are you aware to avoid mounting the motor on a conventional engine stand via the half bellhousing?

Mart.

[pistonbroke]

I wish the last V12 Lincoln I did would have looked as good as your V8 Ford. Like Mart said pull the pan and check for cracks along the block where the pan gasket sits. Then you know if you need to go farther. So far what you've shown us is a basic rebuild with possibly a sleeve in one cylinder. Keep the pictures coming with your questions . We will be here. Tim

[rotorwrench]

The car was likely used for mostly short trips where the engine didn't fully warm up to operating temperature. Engines used this way get sludged up bad if operated for long periods like that. The water in the cylinder could have been coolant. If it was then there is likely coolant in the pan too.

Climate of long term storage has a lot to do with condition of engine internals. A well stored car would have had less corrosion but could've still had some depending on temperature changes and relative humidity. I've seen a lot worse but the cylinder could be a candidate for resleeve. The cylinder walls on the old 221s are not all that thick. Whether it is a large bearing engine (LB) or an older poured babbitt engine will be the thing a person needs to know.