positive to negative change

[grouchyandugly]

just got a NICE 1941 Mercury Eight Sedan. want to change it over to Negative Ground. How do I do that?? the P.O. somehow has JUICED the 6 Volt Battery to 13Volts!! noticed when first trying it out that the Engine turned over fast and fired right up (no wonder). Generator is/was shot. bought a one-wire alternator, but do not want to hook it up before I know what to do with a dumb Positive Ground system. stay safe. thanks

[tubman]

At the risk of rousing your ire (witness the user name), I suggest that you slow down and and have a little discussion about this. Doing what you are suggesting is about the last thing you want to do if your car is really "NICE". Plus the comment "JUICED the 6 Volt Battery to 13 Volts" suggests there is something else going on here. At this point, we don't even know if we are talking about a 6 volt or 12 volt system. Slow down and learn to take advantage of all the knowledge this Forum can provide.

Welcome to "The Ford Barn", by the way.

[JSeery]

How about posting a photo of the battery. How did you come up with 13 volts, measure with a voltmeter? Coil and Generator (alternator) and maybe the starter are the major items involved with a voltage changeover, but lights, heater fan, gauges, etc also need to be addressed.

[Kerk]

I suggest the first thing you do is to disconnect BOTH battery cables from the battery and then put a volt meter across the battery terminals and con firm the Battery''s real voltage. Then you can decide the next step!! JMHS kx

[Red98]

Twelve volt batteries are actually 13 volts but most people use the nominal 12 when describing them. Lead acid cells are 2.15 volts per cell and a (nominal) 12 has 6 cells, which rounds to 13. (note to OP) Calling your 12 volt a 'juiced 13' will serve to invite confusion away from the answers you seek.

How to:

• reverse the battery terminals.
• reverse the ammeter wire.
• radio is a potential problem.
• if there are any motors, like heater...they must also be reversed.
• bulbs and lamps can be ignored
• reverse the ignition coil

Reverse is hopefully understood to mean changing one for the other.

[flatford8]

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Welcome.... we love pictures!!!..... until you decide what or if there is a problem, I wouldn’t leave the battery hooked up when your not working on it. “Nice” cars burn just as fast as the ones that I own..... Mark

[grouchyandugly]

Originally Posted by tubman

At the risk of rousing your ire (witness the user name), I suggest that you slow down and and have a little discussion about this. Doing what you are suggesting is about the last thing you want to do if your car is really "NICE". Plus the comment "JUICED the 6 Volt Battery to 13 Volts" suggests there is something else going on here. At this point, we don't even know if we are talking about a 6 volt or 12 volt system. Slow down and learn to take advantage of all the knowledge this Forum can provide.

Welcome to "The Ford Barn", by the way.

Thanks BTW we ALL cannot be Handsome and Debonair...some of us gotta be UGLY!!… HA... bought this some 2 weeks ago. just recently got around to checking the output of the orig gen (zero), battery is/was a 6 volt (3 cells)…. but checked the battery with terminals disconnected, and that dumb dirtyword was reading 13VOLTS!! YIKES!! never witnessed that before. read it with 2 multmeters (1 digital, 1 analog). the seller I got it from did not know much of anything about the car (30-35), he did not even know how to shift with the column shift. but... the car fired right up and did drive great, and stopped only when I used my right foot on the middle pedal. Today I took the orig generator and the regulator that was on the car to Live Oak FL to a guy that rebuilds these. Left it with him and he said he would get on it Monday. so. if it all goes okay with the rebuild, should not be any reason to convert it over to Negative Ground; as I had been thinking about using a 1-wire alternator (12V)…. attempted to put photos of it on here, but failed. too old to figure it out I guess (77), will try and put one on here when I get this dumb dirtyword cotton-picking snot-sucking finger-licking answer done. I can only GUESS the PO somehow got 12Volts into a 6Volt Battery. I never could!! stay safe. THANKS FYI: my photos failed to "upload" again... keeps telling me it needs a URL for the image (I do not know what URL is, or actually means either). advice (on inserting photos)??

[JSeery]

Did you select Go Advanced and then Manage Attachments (paperclip on bar)? Somewhat straight forward from there. Biggest issues is the file size, there are upload file size limits, ~ 500Kb.

[grouchyandugly]

thanks... will now try again....nope...negative... keeps showing a new tab:
"script prompt... enter URL …. nothing about "go advanced" or 'manage attach' that I can see. wheeeeeee thanks ???


I clik on the "insert image", then new tab that says: fordbarn.com needs some information. script prompt. please enter the URL of you image.


going in circles. ???

[JSeery]

It should be at the bottom of the thread, right below the last post (I'm seeing it as I input the text). Says Post Quick Reply & Go Advanced. If your not seeing it how are you posting?

[Mike in AZ]

Welcome to the ‘Barn. Yep, we love pics. So hope you can solve pic posting. When you’re typing in you reply your choices to post that reply are the “post quick reply” or “go advanced” buttons below the message you want to post. “ go advanced” might be helpful with pic posting. Good luck. Mike

[grouchyandugly]

DIRTYWORD... not only am I UGLY, but BLIND. been looking for that post quick reply at bottom.... cannot see it on my end. each time to "download" my photo, it says can't do. I go to "manage attachments" but, but, they do not attach!! ??

[grouchyandugly]

can I send photos via email? I do (or did.....) know how to do that.... and where would I send them??? stay safe. thanks

[grouchyandugly]

1941 mercury eight sedan

[grouchyandugly]

1941 mercury eight sedan. dead end again. went to Advance, but NADA.
do not know what to do about "no photos"... I have them stored, but not able to get them onto here..... iffen I was a "woman" I would be "happy", because I got something to complain about !!! stay safe. thanks

[Bob C]

Look at this.

[Charlie Stephens]

Here are the photos:

Charlie Stephens

[tubman]

Nice looking car. Could it be that some previous owner put a small 12 volt battery (Odyssey, etc.) inside one of those faux 6 volt cases?

[Black Fifty]

Originally Posted by tubman

Nice looking car. Could it be that some previous owner put a small 12 volt battery (Odyssey, etc.) inside one of those faux 6 volt cases?

Good call, Tubman. Thinking the same thing.

[54vicky]

I am with tubman also there is no way a 6 volt would show 12 volt no matter what meter you use

[JSeery]

A photo of the battery would help.

[rotorwrench]

The battery conversions started with removing the tar and lead plates from the old original Ford battery cases them modifying them to hold a late type Optima 6 volt batteries. Later they started manufacturing new "look alike" cases for this purpose. I haven't seen one that was modified to 12-volt yet but who knows what can show up. This is what makes for the confusion.


There may be some small 12-volt batteries that have been disguised as a 6-volt.


Your radio may be polarity sensitive if it has been repaired with late type solid state components for positive ground. It would also need a voltage drop. If no radio, no problem. The ignition coil is also polarity sensitive but that can be overcome depending on what type of ignition the car has. The bulbs all have to be 12-volt and the gauges in the instrument panel need voltage reduction as well as heater motors and the like. The rest will likely function on 12-volt. Horns get pretty harsh sounding though.


The generator would have to be changed over to 12-volt field coils or an alternator could be used but would stick out like a sore thumb unless it had one of those iffy Power Gens or an alternator converted generator body. There are several ways to go 12-volt if you want to. You will have to check this stuff to see if it has already been converted or not.

[Licensed to kill]

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, the battery/voltage issue notwithstanding, why do you want to switch the polarity to negative ground?. Is there some advantage over positive ground?.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Licensed to kill

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, the battery/voltage issue notwithstanding, why do you want to switch the polarity to negative ground?. Is there some advantage over positive ground?.

If the vehicle is original, no. If you are going to add modern devices that use negative ground, maybe. Don't really see any reason unless you were converting to 12v at the same time.

[trentclark]

Grouchy and ugly, you hit the jackpot of knowledge. these guys will help you get it figured out. they helped me with my fuel issues and other charging items a year of so ago. just be patient and send lots of pics. I ran my 47 truck for 20 years with positive ground and never had any issues. I finally decided to make the switch and its as simple as Red98 states. took me an hour or so and all was swapped. slow down, think it thru, use a voltmeter on everything and you will have it done. 6 volt battery with 13 volts is not possible. tubman figured it out.

[grouchyandugly]

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here are )NO( photos of my dumb dirtyword battery. it is a CARQUEST battery, part #1-30 with 640CCA …. just checked carquest.com, transferred to Advance, and this battery is available and is a 6V, not a 12V. and it is POSSIBLE because I have checked it and rechecked it for "voltage" (I was a Radioman in the Navy for years, so this is not something new for me). just checked my battery again, and it reads 12.96V. anyways, whatever, I will be changing it over to 12 volts because my original generator has a burnt out Amature, and I cannot afford those fantastic prices for a replacement 41 gen. stay safe. thanksxxxxx
DIRTYWORD.... PHOTOS WILL NOT UPLOAD....I reduced the size twice and still cannot get them accepted.

[tubman]

I'm sure that if you look around you will be able to find an auto electric rebuilder near you who can repair your existing generator. You might be pleasantly surprised at the cost. The pictures of your car show it to be a nice original. I hate to say this but "moredoors" are not very desirable and their appeal and desirability will decrease with every modification from stock original you make. Think twice about doing this.

Oh yeah, if that 6 volt battery is really putting out over 12 volts, I suggest you contact the Smithsonian or Ripley's "Believe it or Not" or some such. Too bad about the pictures. How about sending them to Charlie again?

[grouchyandugly]

Originally Posted by tubman

I'm sure that if you look around you will be able to find an auto electric rebuilder near you who can repair your existing generator. You might be pleasantly surprised at the cost. The pictures of your car show it to be a nice original. I hate to say this but "moredoors" are not very desirable and their appeal and desirability will decrease with every modification from stock original you make. Think twice about doing this.

Oh yeah, if that 6 volt battery is really putting out over 12 volts, I suggest you contact the Smithsonian or Ripley's "Believe it or Not" or some such. Too bad about the pictures. How about sending them to Charlie again?

I did look/search around. found one in Live Oak. he called next day and said my armature was toast, and he was unable to locate a replacement.... and... sent photos of my dumb battery to Charles, so they should be up and visible shortly. hopefully he can tell me what to do or how to make my photos show up. pain. stay safe. thanks

[grouchyandugly]

Originally Posted by grouchyandugly

I did look/search around. found one in Live Oak. he called next day and said my armature was toast, and he was unable to locate a replacement.... and... sent photos of my dumb battery to Charles, so they should be up and visible shortly. hopefully he can tell me what to do or how to make my photos show up. pain. stay safe. thanks

yep, I know 4 doors are not popular, etc., but, (always a but), this is the year I popped out, and in great condition, so I latched onto it. stay safe.thanks

[Charlie Stephens]

Here is a photo of the battery. Looks like a standard auto parts store battery that hasn't been tampered with. It is probably just an optical illusion but the ground cable looks like it is incorrectly attached to the negative post (which is slightly smaller).

Charlie Stephens

[Gary in La.]

If you look close there is a negative (-) image on the case at the lower right connection. Thus making it a positive (+) ground.

[54vicky]

to my eyes the post with the shielded cable attached is on the bigger post if so it is hooked up as negative ground.with the bare cable(ground) not attached.it may be my eyes.the 3 caps were 6 volt on batteries I remember

[grouchyandugly]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

Here is a photo of the battery. Looks like a standard auto parts store battery that hasn't been tampered with. It is probably just an optical illusion but the ground cable looks like it is incorrectly attached to the negative post (which is slightly smaller).

Charlie Stephens

hi. the ground cable is disconnected from the Positive post... the Negative post cable loops around to the starter solenoid on the firewall just inside from the battery. stay safe. thanks

[tubman]

I have an armature for a pre-49 Ford generator in my stash back in Minnesota that I have no need for that I would send you for shipping. The problem is, I'm in Marathon until May.

[grouchyandugly]

heyyyy… just in time for my 78th Birthday!! (may)…. yes, I would take it and be happy to get it. (payment for shipping to me from me from you to me)
stay safe


today gots my one-wire 12V Alternator going, with some modifications on the mounting bracket. checked my SIX VOLT battery after i ran her for a while... it shows 13.14Volts !!! (eat your heart out!!). PO had to have replaced the headlights and the tail lights, as they did not burn out..... changed nothing, so it can be back to original.


thanks
G&U

[grouchyandugly]

me slow brain. but... will that armature from a pre 49 fit my dumb 41?? they changed some things before/after.... wheeeeee burp wheeeeeee


stay safe
thanks
G&U

[cas3]

hmm...there's somthin funny goin on here

[grouchyandugly]

anybody/everybody is WELCOME to drop by and check out what I have typed.
stay safe
thanks
G&U

[koates]

Something funny going on here alright !! That is a 6 volt battery you have. Am curious as to the type of meter you are using to test the voltage. its most important to make sure the voltage scale knob is set correctly so that you are getting the correct reading and not double the correct reading. A photo of your meter would be good especially with it reading in operation. You are 78 so just wondering if your glasses are up to scratch ? Regards, Kevin.

[JSeery]

Koates, we have been through this, the claim is several different meters at different times, both analog and digital. My guess would be it is some type of strange 12v battery of three cells. It holds a charge at 13+ volts and it is being charged by a 12v alternator, to me, that makes it a 12v battery, LOL. Never seen or even heard of such a thing, but to me, regardless of it's appearance, it is a 12v battery.

[koates]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Koates, we have been through this, the claim is several different meters at different times, both analog and digital. My guess would be it is some type of strange 12v battery of three cells. It holds a charge at 13+ volts and it is being charged by a 12v alternator, to me, that makes it a 12v battery, LOL. Never seen or even heard of such a thing, but to me, regardless of it's appearance, it is a 12v battery.

Yes I have read all the posts several times over. Maybe it is a 12 volt battery with a 6 volt battery top fitted on top. In which case the 3 battery caps would not line up with the 12 volt cells. I bet those caps are glued down. Its hard to suss these things out from hundreds of miles away and with information a bit sketchey. Regards, Kevin.

[JSeery]

I'm with you!

[Mike51Merc]

Quite a mystery here.
I'd say it is electrochemically impossible for a three cell lead/acid battery to produce 12 volts, it just can't happen.

[deuce_roadster]

Yeah, has he taken the caps off and looked to see whether it needs more water? I am guessing if they unscrew at all, he will see a smaller 12 v battery inside that case. And the generator and regulator were burned up due to the 12 volts. The starter can take it for quite a while. I also suspect whoever made this battery made it appear that the + terminal is going to ground but it looks to me like what is connected to ground is actually a negative post (smaller).

Actually pretty clever to make it look original, he has proved it is a 12v battery.

Back in high school, I bought a car that was hooked up correctly but the PO had stamped the ends of the battery terminals wrong (the big on had a - and the small one had a +.

Whoever made that battery up wanted to mess with our brains. As stated, it is not possible to get 12v out of 3 lead acid cells.

[grouchyandugly]

hi. anyone/anybody is WELCOME to come check out this dumb dirtyword "impossible" battery..… and I HAVE looked inside it, and it only has the internals of a SIX VOLT. and it checked out as a correct 6V from CARQUEST. (model number, etc on battery). I live between Jacksonville Fl and Lake City Fl if anyone wants to check it out (battery, not me). stay safe. thanks

[grouchyandugly]

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oh, the POS Post WAS LARGER AND IT WAS GOING TO GROUND. the NEG post was smaller and it is going to the starter solenoid.... they were NOT switched around. the NEG cable is looping around to the solenoid. the battery caps were "pull off/out" not screwed in. stay safe. thanks

[deuce_roadster]

Well, he is in Florida, maybe the battery is left over from the Space Shuttle.

[rotorwrench]

If a 6-volt battery is reading anything over 7-volts then I'd either return it under warranty or pitch it in the dead pile. It only has three cells at 2.1-volts per cell normally. A group 1 battery puts it in the same catagory as batteries back to the early Ford days. If it is 12-volt it would have to have two cells crammed in each of the 3 separate wells in order to function at 12-volt. It would be an impossibility any other way you look at it. Anyone that would try to convince me other wise would be special indeed. There is no way a lead acid cell will put out much more than 2.1-volts. It is physically impossible.

If the car "was" 6-volt then all the light bulbs will burn out quickly on 12-volt. The instruments won't work correctly either. No wonder the armature burned out on the generator.

I'd look for another battery stashed somewhere else that is hooked in reverse to the system making the system read 12-volts. Someone may think that it would make is start better but that isn't all it would do if it wasn't isolated from the other system.

[Paul Bennett]

.




13v ... Optima YellowTops are THIRTEEN volts plus a tad at full charge. RedTops are 12.6-12.8v..






.

[flatheadmurre]

I would take the battery to be tested...if it actually turns out it puts out 12v some one did a pretty clever conversion of it or the internal is a miracle.
A 12v auxilliary battery in parallel with a 6v would boil the water out of the 6v in no time...
If there´s an auxillary battery in the car you should be able to detect power in the system with the first battery unhooked.

[rotorwrench]

I was thinking a 6-volt in series to get 12-volt. You never know what folks can cook up. I've seen so many 8-volt batteries in 6-volt cars and the owners always tried to tell me that they came from the factory that way.

[Hoop]

"I suggest that you slow down and and have a little discussion about this. Doing what you are suggesting is about the last thing you want to do if your car is really "NICE". Plus the comment "JUICED the 6 Volt Battery to 13 Volts" suggests there is something else going on here." tubman

I know the car. It was bought new in Jacksonville and had only two owners until recently.

It really is a nice car with, I believe, the original seat covers installed by the dealer. The mileage is low and should be correct. If I remember correctly, it has been resprayed.

The above quoted advice is on target. Unless something really screwed up happened, it is a 6 volt car.

Frankly, I would strongly suggest that you stop messing with it until you have a bonafide early ford guy check it out ... the car ran beautifully and reliably for years with a generator and doesn't need an alternator.

Of course, it's your car and you can take all the bad advice you want.

[deuce_roadster]

If you must have an alternator, they make 6v + ground ones.

[Mike51Merc]

OK, so just thinking out of the box here--- this car was recently purchased----is it possible that there is a second source (second battery) in this car (trunk)?

As crazy as it sounds, we've all heard stories of guys putting in a second battery to tap 12V for audio equipment, etc.