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Old 03-14-2020, 08:26 PM   #1
Vanspeed
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Default Stock or later oil pump?

Hi guys. Since I have my ‘36 engine out and oil pan off, should I stick with the stock oil pump or go to a later higher pressure pump? Do the later pumps have any issues with the oil pan? What all is involved with swapping to a later pump?
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Old 03-15-2020, 05:58 AM   #2
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Have a photo of your pump? Is it the long nose style or the round pick-up with the screen. If the round pick up I would suggest you stay with it,if the pump is good. What was the oil pressure before removing the engine? If the pressure was low that is not a sign the pump is always bad, but if it was good pressure, I would say the pump is good. The later style pumps with 80# pressure and high volume can create problems with leaks out the rear main.
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

It is the long nose style, it has no removable screen. I just acquired the engine last summer so I don’t know what the oil pressure was but it did come from a very nice driver car.
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

I use the Melling M-19 oil pumps in my 21 stud engine rebuilds, along with an 8ba/8rt pu truck oil screen & tube assembly. Some here will tell you they've had problems with manufactured clearances/tolerance's with some of these pumps made back in about the 2000 to 2010 era, but I've had one in the babbitt mains engine of my '35 fordor Avatar car since 2007, and it's still doing well after around 35k miles. I'm also planning to use the M-19 pumps again in two '36 LB insert mains engines I'm putting back together. I would not recommend using a Melling type M-15, high volume/high pressure oil pump unless you are building a racing engine with greater than normal bearing clearances.
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

As long as itīs not a babbit motor most will work...small journal babbit and a shortbody pump is like putting in a highflow and you get issues !

Longbody pump in an early 21-stud is straight cut short gears...later came longer gears.
A shortbody is helical long gears so quite a bit more flow then first generation pump.
If you have 10PSI/1000rpm with oil up to working temp thatīs all you need for the motor to work good...
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Old 03-16-2020, 10:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

I my engine is a ‘36 LB so it has insert bearings. I have never had a 21 stud before so this engine is a little new to me. I was shocked to see no removable screen on the oil pump. What pressure do the stock pumps create?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
As long as itīs not a babbit motor most will work...small journal babbit and a shortbody pump is like putting in a highflow and you get issues !

Longbody pump in an early 21-stud is straight cut short gears...later came longer gears.
A shortbody is helical long gears so quite a bit more flow then first generation pump.
If you have 10PSI/1000rpm with oil up to working temp thatīs all you need for the motor to work good...
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Old 03-16-2020, 10:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Pressure is dependent on the clearances in your engine.
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Old 03-16-2020, 10:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Early pumps are 50PSI later 80PSI but the flow has been improved over the years as journals has become larger.
If you donīt need the flow...the oil goes through the relief valve and ends up in the liftergallery...or is forced through the bearings and may cause cavitation...either way it eats horsepowers doing no good just heating up the oil pumping it around.
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Old 03-16-2020, 10:47 AM   #9
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatjack9 View Post
Pressure is dependent on the clearances in your engine.
Volume needed to maintain pressure is dependent on clearance and journal size.
Pressure should be depending on relief valve if you have a bit of reserve flow.
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Old 03-16-2020, 11:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatheadmurre View Post
Early pumps are 50PSI later 80PSI but the flow has been improved over the years as journals has become larger.
If you donīt need the flow...the oil goes through the relief valve and ends up in the liftergallery...or is forced through the bearings and may cause cavitation...either way it eats horsepowers doing no good just heating up the oil pumping it around.
Not all later pumps are 80 psi.
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Old 03-16-2020, 11:53 AM   #11
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
Not all later pumps are 80 psi.
In general ford went from 50 to 80 PSI during the flathead years...to my best knowledge...but please straighten out what i have missed.
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Old 03-16-2020, 12:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

You have to remove the snout to find the screen. There is a replaceable cork gasket for sealing.
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
I use the Melling M-19 oil pumps in my 21 stud engine rebuilds, along with an 8ba/8rt pu truck oil screen & tube assembly. Some here will tell you they've had problems with manufactured clearances/tolerance's with some of these pumps made back in about the 2000 to 2010 era, but I've had one in the babbitt mains engine of my '35 fordor Avatar car since 2007, and it's still doing well after around 35k miles. I'm also planning to use the M-19 pumps again in two '36 LB insert mains engines I'm putting back together. I would not recommend using a Mellings type M-15, high volume/high pressure oil pump unless you are building a racing engine with greater than normal bearing clearances.
Thanks for this. Will the M19 pump and the truck pickup fit a stock 36 oil pan?
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Not sure what or if it helps. but this shows the later long and earlier shorter pumps. 37 vs 47. Too much pressure isn't always good.

Think you can use a longer or tougher spring on the early pumps to increase flow also. But I will leave that to the fb experts.

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139342


I agree pressure is dependent on tolerances also.

.
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

"Thanks for this. Will the M19 pump and the truck pickup fit a stock 36 oil pan?"

No you may have to cut the baffle in the pan so it fits , also you may have to adjust the height of the pick up also. Pretty common to do. Leave the relief valve up front oil gallery so it only goes to 60 lbs.
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:36 PM   #16
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Unhappy Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyodyne View Post
Thanks for this. Will the M19 pump and the truck pickup fit a stock 36 oil pan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkwrench View Post
"Thanks for this. Will the M19 pump and the truck pickup fit a stock 36 oil pan?"

No you may have to cut the baffle in the pan so it fits , also you may have to adjust the height of the pick up also. Pretty common to do. Leave the relief valve up front oil gallery so it only goes to 60 lbs.
Yoyodyne, Talkwrench has it correct based on my experience with using a Meling M-19 type oil pump, pu truck oil pickup assembly, and a 36 oil pan. This is the exact combination I have in my '35 fordor sedan. If you need to remove a baffle, or some part of a baffle, it's best to not risk stressing/fatiguing the spot welds that attach the baffle to the inside walls of the oil pan. You might fracture the oil pan sheet metal around the weld and wind up with an oil leak there after everything is back together and your enjoying your ride. This did happen on one of my engines.
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Old 03-16-2020, 10:27 PM   #17
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

This is my stock pump and this is a pump I know is good that I had stored away. This pump with the pickup tube and maybe slight modification to the pan is all that is necessary to do the switch? It has an 8ba part number on it. Is there a real benefit to swapping to the later style pump?
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Old 03-17-2020, 03:39 AM   #18
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Just use your original long snout pump. Make sure the gears and shaft bushes are not worn and clean the gauze filter that's inside. They are very reliable. Why change to something else that may need some modifications and wont be of any benefit. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:07 AM   #19
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Default Re: Stock or later oil pump?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanspeed View Post
This is my stock pump and this is a pump I know is good that I had stored away. This pump with the pickup tube and maybe slight modification to the pan is all that is necessary to do the switch? It has an 8ba part number on it. Is there a real benefit to swapping to the later style pump?
It's your call, but my personal preference is to use the standard volume Meling M-19 type oil pump and a pu truck pickup tube & screen assembly. Depending on which oil pan you use, this may require removal of some part of a baffle to clear the oil pick-up & screen, and the pick-up tube requires some careful adjustment for correct clearance at the bottom of the oil pan. I definitely prefer this over the original style oil pump shown in your first picture. I've taken too many of these early 21 stud engines apart and found that original pump & pick-up assembly in very poor condition or completely non functional. Again, it's your final call....although some here will tell you to do otherwise.

Here is an "epay" listing for an Meling M-19 oil pump like I normally use:

https://www.ebay.com/i/352572222353?...QaAliTEALw_wcB
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