The Ford Barn

Jerry in Shasta · 08-06-2016, 09:17 PM

Could there be a "hot spot" in one of the combustion chambers? IE. a sharp piece of metal in the chamber. Or maybe a head gasket that is intruding into the chamber?
Either would cause a ping.

Just my WAG at th problem

JB

Plainsman30 · 08-07-2016, 09:43 AM

I tried more suggestions, Here is more feedback:
If you try this simple test, it may answer your simple "pinging" questions. I did the simple test, and set the timing at TDC.I did later check it with the timing light to confirm it is set at TDC

You had problems with scored pistons with the first rebuilt engine ... ain't so? This might have been an overheating / lean issue also. This rebuild has been a nightmare.We are not sure why the original rebuild failed so quickly and hope this one is better.I am running the GAV more open than I did before.

Use the 3X Plugs. I replaced the TT10 plugs with Champion 3X plugs

Before doing any other diagnostics the engine should be set to specs,,, valve timing, points, ignition timing, carburetor.. I hope I have most of this covered as have tried 2 different carbs and distributors. Gas in tank is fresh. I don’t have a filter in the line except screen in sediment bowl.

Not sure why you keep setting the base timing where it shouldn't be.. Any reason???I am told can’t use full 40 degrees timing with the 5.5 head anyway, so I originally started out retarded as a safety measure, and like the slow idle when the spark is retarded.

After all of the good feedback and tests, I am thinking that the pinging noise is not likely a pre ignition or timing issue? I will keep trying to find the problem.

Patrick L. · 08-07-2016, 10:26 AM

If you do happen to have a 'hot' spot showing up somewhere then you could very well be having a pre-ignition issue.

But, we have been mostly concerned about a detonation/spark knock issue.

I'm surprised the engine starts easily and runs as well as it does when being so retarded. So I keep thinking there is something there.

Maybe your noise is something other than any type of ignition knock. Maybe its an internal engine issue, piston/wrist pin etc.

Maybe there is someone in your area that could give a listen.

tbirdtbird · 08-07-2016, 06:50 PM

"We are not sure why the original rebuild failed so quickly and hope this one is better"

Not doing a failure analysis is a sure way to have a repeated failure

Plainsman30 · 08-07-2016, 08:51 PM

More feedback:
Another question: Are you using a stock Model A distributer? With original points? I have 2 stock distributors I use. One has Model A points and one has modern points. I don't see much difference in performance.

Not doing a failure analysis is a sure way to have a repeated failure. We did a very extensive failure analysis, but didn't come up with anything positively conclusive. I think the most likely cause was the water passages on the new 5.5 head were not properly drilled out from the factory and did not flow water. That head has now been replaced. See the post "Help on Overhaul Failure" on this site to see many of the things that were looked at.

.

H. L. Chauvin · 08-07-2016, 11:06 PM

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Hi Mike,

This may sound somewhat old fashion, but in your post no. one (1), I first noticed that it started out with "WE".

And, after the first engine failure, it was still "WE".

This reminded me of so many past experiences of working with guys who were the other half of "WE". The other part of "WE" is always most important.

In trying to be most sincere, and to save you valuable time, my guess is if you would give your current address, and/or try to find a local "experienced" Model A mechanic in a local club or wherever, to try to add a little Model A <savoire faire> to your "WE" combination, you could very shortly be smiling and informing us what "WE" found.

So many on this Forum would try to come to help if you lived close by.

Mitch//pa · 08-08-2016, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Mike,

This may sound somewhat old fashion, but in your post no. one (1), I first noticed that it started out with "WE".

And, after the first engine failure, it was still "WE".

This reminded me of so many past experiences of working with guys who were the other half of "WE". The other part of "WE" is always most important.

In trying to be most sincere, and to save you valuable time, my guess is if you would give your current address, and/or try to find a local "experienced" Model A mechanic in a local club or wherever, to try to add a little Model A <savoire faire> to your "WE" combination, you could very shortly be smiling and informing us what "WE" found.

So many on this Forum would try to come to help if you lived close by.

Since WE don't know his location maybe he is French

Plainsman30 · 08-08-2016, 07:37 PM

Hi H.L. Chauvin:

I do plan to try and get another set of ears to listen to the engine, hopefully soon.

The other half of "we" is a very good Model A mechanic, who did listen to the noise and at least so far thinks is pre ignition.

Hi Mitch:
I live in NW Minnesota, and I hear "Yah, You Betcha" and lot more than "Oui" (we). The proper way of pronouncing "Yah, You Betcha" can be heard by watching the movie Fargo --- Heh! Heh!

H. L. Chauvin · 08-08-2016, 07:59 PM

Hi Mike,

Such beautiful rural areas you guys have to tour through ...... also been boat riding at the Dells years ago ..... and saw FLW's House on the Rock.

Just enjoy the Forum comments and do not give up ..... they are all sent with the best of wishes.

Tom Wesenberg · 08-09-2016, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Mike,

Such beautiful rural areas you guys have to tour through ...... also been boat riding at the Dells years ago ..... and saw FLW's House on the Rock.

Just enjoy the Forum comments and do not give up ..... they are all sent with the best of wishes.

Anyone travelling through the beautiful state of Wisconsin should definitely plan to spend a good part of the day at "The House on the Rock". I was there only once about 12 years ago, and it took hours to see the many collections, and well worth taking the side trip to visit.

Plainsman30 · 09-05-2016, 06:23 PM

Hi All,
Four knowledgeable car guys have listened to the motor since I last posted. Nobody is sure what the noise is, but the most thought it is something in either the timing gear or the oil pump /distributor drive rather than "pinging". The noise is very sensitive to the advance lever and to motor speed, but is not a steady rhythmic sound like you would expect from a rod or piston. It tends to be a non rhythmic chatter and hard to ignore when driving. What does it sound like if the spring in the timing cover is broken or missing?
Thanks,

KMeredith87 · 09-05-2016, 06:47 PM

You know...just tossing this out there...I have an alternator on mine and was having on funky pinking noises I couldn't figure out got worse with speed and advance and so forth...in the end stupid fan on the alternator was periodically hitting the belt with a blade or two causing some strange pinging noises...look for the obvious or well maybe less obvious but easy fix

99ZoomR · 09-05-2016, 06:56 PM

Hi Mike. I've only been an A'er for a year, so not sure if my advice will help. I'd remove the valve cover since it's pretty easy. Then have someone crank over the engine while you look at the timing gear through the hole in front of the valve chamber. You can see if maybe the timing gear is loose or damaged.

I also had a chattering noise that I thought at first was engine noise but turned out to be a speedometer that needed to be lubricated...

Good luck!
Len

PC/SR · 09-05-2016, 08:22 PM

Starting to sound like cam gear backlash. Its fairly easy to check the timing gear for excessive backlash, which will cause an irregular rattle/clunk type sound, which varies with RPM, and usually goes away during accelleration. Take off the cam gear side cover, and measure the lash with a dial indicator. Should be around .003-.004. Check this before taking the front cover off.

08-06-2016, 09:17 PM	#41
Jerry in Shasta Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: (Old)Shasta (Redding) CA Posts: 385	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance Could there be a "hot spot" in one of the combustion chambers? IE. a sharp piece of metal in the chamber. Or maybe a head gasket that is intruding into the chamber? Either would cause a ping. Just my WAG at th problem JB __________________ Connoisseur of Rust

08-07-2016, 09:43 AM	#42
Plainsman30 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 72	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance I tried more suggestions, Here is more feedback: If you try this simple test, it may answer your simple "pinging" questions. I did the simple test, and set the timing at TDC.I did later check it with the timing light to confirm it is set at TDC You had problems with scored pistons with the first rebuilt engine ... ain't so? This might have been an overheating / lean issue also. This rebuild has been a nightmare.We are not sure why the original rebuild failed so quickly and hope this one is better.I am running the GAV more open than I did before. Use the 3X Plugs. I replaced the TT10 plugs with Champion 3X plugs Before doing any other diagnostics the engine should be set to specs,,, valve timing, points, ignition timing, carburetor.. I hope I have most of this covered as have tried 2 different carbs and distributors. Gas in tank is fresh. I don’t have a filter in the line except screen in sediment bowl. Not sure why you keep setting the base timing where it shouldn't be.. Any reason???I am told can’t use full 40 degrees timing with the 5.5 head anyway, so I originally started out retarded as a safety measure, and like the slow idle when the spark is retarded. After all of the good feedback and tests, I am thinking that the pinging noise is not likely a pre ignition or timing issue? I will keep trying to find the problem. __________________ Mike

08-07-2016, 10:26 AM	#43
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance If you do happen to have a 'hot' spot showing up somewhere then you could very well be having a pre-ignition issue. But, we have been mostly concerned about a detonation/spark knock issue. I'm surprised the engine starts easily and runs as well as it does when being so retarded. So I keep thinking there is something there. Maybe your noise is something other than any type of ignition knock. Maybe its an internal engine issue, piston/wrist pin etc. Maybe there is someone in your area that could give a listen.

08-07-2016, 06:50 PM	#44
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance "We are not sure why the original rebuild failed so quickly and hope this one is better" Not doing a failure analysis is a sure way to have a repeated failure __________________ '31 180A

08-07-2016, 08:51 PM	#45
Plainsman30 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 72	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance More feedback: Another question: Are you using a stock Model A distributer? With original points? I have 2 stock distributors I use. One has Model A points and one has modern points. I don't see much difference in performance. Not doing a failure analysis is a sure way to have a repeated failure. We did a very extensive failure analysis, but didn't come up with anything positively conclusive. I think the most likely cause was the water passages on the new 5.5 head were not properly drilled out from the factory and did not flow water. That head has now been replaced. See the post "Help on Overhaul Failure" on this site to see many of the things that were looked at. . __________________ Mike

08-07-2016, 11:06 PM	#46
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Hi Mike, This may sound somewhat old fashion, but in your post no. one (1), I first noticed that it started out with "WE". And, after the first engine failure, it was still "WE". This reminded me of so many past experiences of working with guys who were the other half of "WE". The other part of "WE" is always most important. In trying to be most sincere, and to save you valuable time, my guess is if you would give your current address, and/or try to find a local "experienced" Model A mechanic in a local club or wherever, to try to add a little Model A <savoire faire> to your "WE" combination, you could very shortly be smiling and informing us what "WE" found. So many on this Forum would try to come to help if you lived close by. Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 08-07-2016 at 11:08 PM. Reason: typo

08-08-2016, 07:37 PM	#48
Plainsman30 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 72	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance Hi H.L. Chauvin: I do plan to try and get another set of ears to listen to the engine, hopefully soon. The other half of "we" is a very good Model A mechanic, who did listen to the noise and at least so far thinks is pre ignition. Hi Mitch: I live in NW Minnesota, and I hear "Yah, You Betcha" and lot more than "Oui" (we). The proper way of pronouncing "Yah, You Betcha" can be heard by watching the movie Fargo --- Heh! Heh! __________________ Mike

08-08-2016, 07:59 PM	#49
H. L. Chauvin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 4,179	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance Hi Mike, Such beautiful rural areas you guys have to tour through ...... also been boat riding at the Dells years ago ..... and saw FLW's House on the Rock. Just enjoy the Forum comments and do not give up ..... they are all sent with the best of wishes.

09-05-2016, 06:23 PM	#51
Plainsman30 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 72	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance Hi All, Four knowledgeable car guys have listened to the motor since I last posted. Nobody is sure what the noise is, but the most thought it is something in either the timing gear or the oil pump /distributor drive rather than "pinging". The noise is very sensitive to the advance lever and to motor speed, but is not a steady rhythmic sound like you would expect from a rod or piston. It tends to be a non rhythmic chatter and hard to ignore when driving. What does it sound like if the spring in the timing cover is broken or missing? Thanks, __________________ Mike

09-05-2016, 06:47 PM	#52
KMeredith87 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: San Antonio Posts: 177	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance You know...just tossing this out there...I have an alternator on mine and was having on funky pinking noises I couldn't figure out got worse with speed and advance and so forth...in the end stupid fan on the alternator was periodically hitting the belt with a blade or two causing some strange pinging noises...look for the obvious or well maybe less obvious but easy fix

09-05-2016, 06:56 PM	#53
99ZoomR Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 35	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance Hi Mike. I've only been an A'er for a year, so not sure if my advice will help. I'd remove the valve cover since it's pretty easy. Then have someone crank over the engine while you look at the timing gear through the hole in front of the valve chamber. You can see if maybe the timing gear is loose or damaged. I also had a chattering noise that I thought at first was engine noise but turned out to be a speedometer that needed to be lubricated... Good luck! Len

09-05-2016, 08:22 PM	#54
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,279	Re: Pings with more than 10 degrees advance Starting to sound like cam gear backlash. Its fairly easy to check the timing gear for excessive backlash, which will cause an irregular rattle/clunk type sound, which varies with RPM, and usually goes away during accelleration. Take off the cam gear side cover, and measure the lash with a dial indicator. Should be around .003-.004. Check this before taking the front cover off.