Fuel pump

[RCM]

Hi there guys.
1956 223 six
My double action fuel pump started leaking bad from at least one of the (~8) bolts securing the pumps lower body to the top portion and also housing the diaphragm I believe. I can see gas coming thru the threads of the bolt. I'm gonna rip it apart and replace the gasket.
3 questions:
- In what position will the actuating arm/lever be when I remove the pump from the block and what should I be concerned about when throwing it back on?
- What will happen when I remove the bolts and open the housing? Will a hoard of springs and the diaphragm jump to the floor?
- If I come to need an electric or alternate fuel pump, what will be the desired pressure for my holley 1904 1 bbl carb?
Thanks for helping.
Regards

[RCM]

Anyone?
Maybe this pic will help. That bolt leaks when the car is running.
Thanks

[dmsfrr]

Ok I'm going out on a limb here since I haven't opened up a fuel-pump since I can't remember when....
I'm pretty sure that the leaking 'gasket' is the outside edge of the fuel pump diaphragm.

The actuating arm/lever is spring-loaded and the pump will come off the block with the arm all the way up, or down, depending on how it's built. Pay attention to which way the arm/lever spring pushes the pump housing as you're undoing the mounting bolts (up or down) and put it back in the same way. Or, with a flashlight look inside the timing cover before you put it back in and put the 'wear surface' of the lever against the outside of the eccentric ring/disc. You'll probably have to align the pump to it's mounting holes by pushing the lever against it's spring

There could be a medium sized spring inside the pump against the fuel diaphragm but it won't go far unless it rolls off your work bench.

Someone may make rebuild kits or maybe the parts or pump are the same as in another car (v8?)
I don't know. The only fuel pump rebuild kits I've seen cost more than a replacement pump.
Hopefully someone else knows where to find what you need.
.

[Daves55Sedan]

RCM ! If I were you, I would NOT replace that pump with a new pump. The new pumps are only available in 5-7 lbs PSI output pressure. That is waaaaay too much pressure for the Holley to take. The pressure will overcome the fuel inlet needle and submerge the float causing flooding immediately. So to correct that, you will want to install a fuel pressure regulator, and set the pressure at 1.5 to maybe 2 lbs PSI. The diaphragm in the regulator will not be able to withstand the backpressure very long and it will become permanently stretched, rendering it useless.
Try removing the bottom housing retaining screws and install a lockwasher on them and tighten well to see if that fixes the leak. Run the engine and check for leaks.
The most likely place where leaks occur with these pumps is at the brass fuel inlet adaptor fitting. Do not ever remove and re-install a used fitting like this. The threads are tapered and become crushed when tightening into the inlet housing.
If it does become necessary to replace the pump, cannibalize your old pump for its actuator and springs, but use the new diaphragm and actuator pin. That should allow you to retain your current output pressure.

[Daves55Sedan]

BTW, if you do need to remove and re-install the pump, make it easy on yourself. Loosen, but do not remove pump mounting bolts, then rotate the engine crankshaft until the eccentric on the camshaft is at it low contact point with the pump actuator. This will remove the tension between the actuator and camshaft allowing you to re-install more easily and without messing up your mounting gasket

[dmsfrr]

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Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

BTW, if you do need to remove and re-install the pump, make it easy on yourself. Loosen, but do not remove pump mounting bolts, then rotate the engine crankshaft until the eccentric on the camshaft is at it low contact point with the pump actuator. This will remove the tension between the actuator and camshaft allowing you to re-install more easily and without messing up your mounting gasket

Am I asleep or what?

RCM
Unless you've had your engine apart, here's a photo of what the eccentric ring on the front of the camshaft gear looks like.
This one's on a y-block but they have the same function, to operate the fuel pump lever.

[54vicky]

Rui while you are at it pull oil dip stick check for gas smell by rubbing your dip stick between fingers if it smells of gas or seems very thin. I would not run engine as diaphram may have ruptured and be dumping fuel into engine.if it is ruptured after re and re of pump drain oil.another thing in regards to kit make sure it is compatible with gasahol if your gas is diluted with the new 10-15 E fuel we have.

[RCM]

Guys, I appreciate the insight, pics and help, I really do.
The possibility of tearing the pump apart scares me a bit, since I dont have a diaphragm at hand. That is probably the issue since it leaks through the bolts so maybe the gasket (diaphragm) is cracked, like dmsfrr said. Its not the brass fuel inlet Dave55, that one keeps dry.
On the other hand there are the issues Dave55 mentioned regarding fuel pressure. There's not a clear way to go around it I see. The replacements Rockauto offers let ou fuel at 3,5-4,5 lbs.. Too much, right?

I'm still gonna try using sealant on the bolt's thread, but that wont do any good if things are going the way 54 vicky is saying (oil getting diluted).

I dont require a OE solution and am only concerned about getting her runnin right and steady, so I'm also thinking about and electrical inline fuel pump.
Who runs them and how are they?
Thank you.
Regards.

[Jimz Bird]

Originally Posted by RCM

The replacements Rockauto offers let ou fuel at 3,5-4,5 lbs.. Too much, right?

From Pg 10 of the shop manual.
"The static pressure should be 3.5 - 5.5 psi at 500 RPM."

Also, it is easier to install if the eccentric is at the top. I don't remember which cylinder should be at TDC to place it there.

[RCM]

OK Jimz, thanks, 54Vicky already tipped me on bumping the car (like you do to get the points to open and feel them with the gauge I believe) to get the eccentric to move so that the arm of the pump via its spring doesnt move the body up or down much, and also so that putting the pump back in and aligning the gasket with sealant comes out an easier and more perfect task.
I appreciate the input.
Regards.

[Jimz Bird]

Rui,

All in all, I agree with Brodie that it is less expensive and much less trouble to go with the mechanical replacement.
The eBay link you gave though is for a single action. That will, of course, pump fuel but will not boost the wipers. If you use one of those just don't floor it to pass someone when it is raining, especially when going uphill.
As a side note. I grew up in Lisbon although it was Lisbon, Ohio not Portugal. I had a 56 Customline in the 60's with the single action and we got a lot of rain. It was tricky to drive in the rolling hills of SE Ohio in the rain.

[54vicky]

Originally Posted by Jimz Bird

Rui,

All in all, I agree with Brodie that it is less expensive and much less trouble to go with the mechanical replacement.
The eBay link you gave though is for a single action. That will, of course, pump fuel but will not boost the wipers. If you use one of those just don't floor it to pass someone when it is raining, especially when going uphill.
As a side note. I grew up in Lisbon although it was Lisbon, Ohio not Portugal. I had a 56 Customline in the 60's with the single action and we got a lot of rain. It was tricky to drive in the rolling hills of SE Ohio in the rain.

Jimz he has or will be installing electric wipers.that was a good tip you guys are all giving good info.you forgot to mention needing a change of underware if you drove in rain for any length of time on those hilly road LOL

[RCM]

Heck I was like, oh man, finnaly a connection. Someone knows Portugal, but then again no.. You should come here when you have the time. Its very pleasant. Good food, wheather and lots to see, but you wont find much detoit steel..

I'm converting a VW wiper motor to use on the Ford. I'll create a thread on it so other people can have an option.
Shipment and custom fees are outrageous for the Newports. It would end up over 300€!

I thank you all for the input as usual and will keep you updated.

Regards

[RCM]

Replaced the OE fuel pump with the airtex 4208. Runs great, no carb flooding. Left if runnin with no issues for some 20 min, so I guess i'm out of the woods.
I'm draining the oil right now so I can drop the pan and replace the freezed plug.
Check out my redneck solution. It takes quite a bit to suck it all out (a whole afternoon) but this way I can solve the issue at home. Just create and maintain vacuum in the system.
Thanks for helping.
Regards

[54vicky]

looking good if things are like they are over here stick a old looking label that say's vintage liquid set out in open.I do not think you will find it anymore

[RCM]

Yes, same thing here. That one and many other old things were found at our house when we bought it. Its an old house that we rebuilt (coins from were also found). It was a 1 1/2 year very rewarding and hard journey. At a point we only had the limestone walls and a gigantic pile of debris. It wasnt fun at all at that point but we stood by each other and got it done.
Tomorrow I'm gonna drop the pan. Haven't driven her for a month or so, but its almost there.
Thanks for helping.
Regards

[54vicky]

Originally Posted by RCM

Yes, same thing here. That one and many other old things were found at our house when we bought it. Its an old house that we rebuilt (coins from were also found). It was a 1 1/2 year very rewarding and hard journey. At a point we only had the limestone walls and a gigantic pile of debris. It wasnt fun at all at that point but we stood by each other and got it done.
Tomorrow I'm gonna drop the pan. Haven't driven her for a month or so, but its almost there.
Thanks for helping.
Regards

I washed mine yesterday today started waxing and polishing it.my old knees and back said enough for today I will finish it tomorrow.I will then take her for a drive after her long rest over winter.I do not feel to bad about you not driving for a month we are not as lucky with our weather as I told you about.

[Jimz Bird]

Originally Posted by RCM

Replaced the OE fuel pump with the airtex 4208. Runs great, no carb flooding. Left if runnin with no issues for some 20 min, so I guess i'm out of the woods.
I'm draining the oil right now so I can drop the pan and replace the freezed plug.
Check out my redneck solution.

Good to hear.
I enjoy following your successes.
So they have "rednecks" in Portugal also.
Well, from a real redneck in VA to another in Portugal we would say;
"You done good boy."

[Daves55Sedan]

RCM, the fuel pressure problem I described only applies if the carburetor has had the fuel inlet fitting replaced with a modern part from one of the rebuild kits. I believe I mentioned it in more detail in one of our private message correspondences.
Glad to hear you don't have that problem.

[RCM]

Thanks for helping out guys, I appreciate it.
You're correct Dave, the carb has been rebuilt with the modern rebuilt kits available, but neither the fuel inlet fitting, nor the needle valve could withstand the pressure on the old ac fuel pump and flooded the carb, So i'm using the old much better ones.
Now I'm dealing with another issue =)
Check out the pic attached.
The oil pan is free and pretty much empty. Redneck solution worked out fine.
I have only but two center bolts holding it AND TWO DARN HIDDEN BOLTS ON THE FRONT END of the pan (See green arrows)
From where I stand there is only one way to get them out so I can drop the pan, and that is to remove this tubular support / bracket (Red arrows).
Now's the dilema: isnt that part of the engine's support? Wont it tilt forward?
The bracket also is used for radiator shell.
I can unscrew the two bots holding the pan but I dont have clearance to remove them.
Help much appreciated as usual.
Thank you.

[54vicky]

Rui I am afraid you will have to raise engine using a hoist if you have one.as the rest is the only support for front of engine.besides the 4 bolts 2 each side of block.I am pretty sure the 2 horizontal bolt at bottom of rad support where it attaches to rad support will allow you to remove the support.manual calls for removing rad hoses.I have done it (50) years ago with out draining rad and undoing rad hoses if you can hoist motor only high enough to relieve weight of motor on steady rest allowing you to remove steady rest(motor mount)as in any short cut watch the strain on hoses.if you do not feel you can do this without putting too much strain on hoses then I would take the hoses off.this adds to time to do but may save you from doing damage.BUT a hoist will be required to lift motor.so much for a simple jobanother thing on list of can do have done.think of it as a job you may never have to do again.

[RCM]

Barry, thank you for keeping up with me. I answered also on the hamb but will duplicate here so other people can find what I did if in need.

I have already managed to remove the pan.
As you had proposed, I rebolted most of the pan and used another jack to support the engine on the front. Then I removed that rest and took the time to wire brush it clean along with the silent blocks (with petrocleaner). Then I very slowly started relieving the jack to see if the engine moved. It didnt, not even a mm. Then I removed the pan not before I had to rotate the cranckshaft a bit with a wrench to get the pan to clear the n.º6 piston's rod.
Covered the engines guts with a piece of plastic so nothing would enter there, lowered the car and used the jack again to support the front part of the engine, just in case.
Pics attached are the remaining oil on pan (redneck solution works great), the engines crankcase, the 51 shades of gray on the pans oil muck (about 2 inches thick).
Cant thank you and the other guys enough.
Tonight is cleaning time and hopefully, tomorrow, the machinist will solve my plug's problem.
Regards

[54vicky]

glad to see you got it off funny when see that it looks like it looked coming out of the ground.as for cleaning those kinds of things is to use diesel fuel I find it works excellent for that.the new diesel here at least does not smell like the old days I think less sulphur?I did not take 54 for drive today in sympathy for you.to be truthful we had 3 nice days I cleaned and waxed woke up today temperature dropped and a strong wind said to hell with it pulled back in garage shut it off.I was going to watch the Bristol race wouldn't you know raining

[RCM]

Hehe, thanks for the thought Barry, I appreciate it.
I am in fact anxious to drive her and test the new shocks and so..
The pan is clean and at the machinist to remove the plug.
As to diesel, doesnt it leave "fat" deposits? At least I sense that.
My main concern now is to clean the underside of the block to get the sealant to stick. Lacquer thinner?
I did notice what you said previously concerning straightening the pans rim ONLY on the slightly risen areas around where the bolts go. Somebody overtightened the bolts leading to slight warping on those areas. Ok with the cork gasket, not ok with the sealant.
I have already carved a wooden kind of cilindrical rod dolly (wood but hard as steel - exotic wood) to flatten those areas straight with the rest of the pan. Will give it a shot tomorrow ("Redneck" diy rules, right Jimz?)
But tonight I'll clean the engine's bottom.
Regards

[54vicky]

Rui those raised area would have caused problem with the cork gasket also.rain here for today and tomorrow.as to the fat residue I have never had that here.possibly your diesel is different.I know they claim people run their diesel's on old cooking oil.lacquer will work I also use alcohol(not vodka).the pan looks good and clean.let the sealant set for a day to let it set up as I said I prefer a gasket for the pan with the trouble to remove if it does not set up.just do not over tighten pushing the sealant out.

[RCM]

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OK Barry, I'll use it on the outer half of the rail, trying no to push it inside the pan at torque.
Lets see how it goes.
Lots of cleaning to do tonite.
I'll report back later.
Regards.

[54vicky]

like I said let it set up you should be good to go.the reason is once you put it back on and bolt up no or very little air to cure so longer the better.if not cured the oil will seep out leaving no bond.once cured the oil will not affect it.also make sure to fill the indents to help hold it.you mentioned making your own cork gasket that is what I would do.

[RCM]

My thoughts also. I'm looking for a sheet or sheets large enough for a one or 2 piece gasket.
Lets see how it goes.
Thanks barry.