Transmission Issues

[chrs1961815]

While driving the roadster a fair amount today back and forth, I noticed the transmission is acting differently in a bad way. It grinds gears if you're going from neutral to low or reverse no matter what. I just adjusted the clutch adjusting arm and there is acceptable play, so I am scratching my head. Bad news?

[ryanheacox]

Is your clutch arm original? They like to crack and it won’t show up unless you depress the clutch.

[Jacksonlll]

I bet Ryan is right.

[Y-Blockhead]

That they do. Usually you will have an increase in free play tho.
Picture of mine.

[chrs1961815]

Just checked, no crack when depressed or at all. Might be original, might be a reproduction.

[ryanheacox]

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Try closing up the free play and see if it gets better?

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by chrs1961815

Just checked, no crack when depressed or at all. Might be original, might be a reproduction.

Not reproduced as original. Repops are made of welded steel.

Check for relative motion between the shaft and arm, not necessarily a crack.

Joe K

[Wick]

From neutral sitting still at a idle,can you go to 2nd easily then back down to 1rst without and problems?
Also is your idle speed correct ? Has transmission fluid been checked?
I would also inspect the shift rail,forks,shifter ball.*

[Bob Bidonde]

Grinding gears will happen when the transmission oil level is too low.

[Railcarmover]

engine running car stopped grinding going into low or reverse?you have a clutch problem.If this is the case,the clutch does adequately release the input shaft from engine power....

[chrs1961815]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Not reproduced as original. Repops are made of welded steel.

Check for relative motion between the shaft and arm, not necessarily a crack.

Joe K

Definetely an original. I can slide the arm and shaft in and out of the trans, don't know if that means the bushing is shot.

At neutral, I can't slide into any gear. If the car is stopped, it still is a problem.

[rotorwrench]

There may be an issue with the clutch cover or disc. It has to completely disengage for the cluster gear counter shaft to slow to a stop.

[1931 flamingo]

Did it grind BEFORE you made the adjustment?? Paul in CT

[1931 flamingo]

Did it grind BEFORE you made the adjustment??
Paul in CT

[Gold Digger]

Not on a Model A but on a truck I once had, the pilot bearing was bad and caused a drag on the pilot shaft of the transmission. This truck had a ball bearing pilot bearing. Just a thought.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by chrs1961815

Definetely an original. I can slide the arm and shaft in and out of the trans, don't know if that means the bushing is shot.

At neutral, I can't slide into any gear. If the car is stopped, it still is a problem.

May be an issue with the "fork." This is held to the shaft by a pin. The pin may have sheared or worked loose.



Joe K

[chrs1961815]

I drained the oil which I only replaced a few months ago and was as already looking dirty and I am cleaning with kerosene. I pulled the floorboards and noticed that the gear shift lever has a pin on mine that goes through the shifter tower and it was halfway out. Can't find the part on Brattons and I don't think it is a shifter fork. I lined it back up and drove it in.

[chrs1961815]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Did it grind BEFORE you made the adjustment?? Paul in CT

It did seem to get worse after I adjusted it last week. I DID replace the clutch adjusting arm with a repro because mine was getting too worn.

[Patrick L.]

A couple things come to mind.

How much freeplay does it have ? Acceptable doesn't mean too much to me. It should be 1.0-1.5".

If the floorboards are removed along with the clutch inspection plate, the clutch operation can be watched.

The trans should be able to be shifted with engine off. The cover may need to come off and the shift lever ball along with the shift forks may need to be looked at. The lever ball should be close to being round [ 1/2"] as they tend to become square over the decades.

[chrs1961815]

I pulled the whole tower and everything looks OK. My shifter ball is still a ball and everything seems to be in good shape.

[rotorwrench]

The pin in the tower is there to keep the shifter lever socket & ball aligned properly. It should be relatively tight in the bore. There are fixes for this if it's loose.

[chrs1961815]

Still have the problem. One more thing I did notice is that the three gears are all worn somewhat. Teeth are more triangular than square.

[Mulletwagon]

The problem is the clutch disk is continuing to rotate while the clutch pedal is depressed. The challenge is to determine why. Normally it is the trans oil that puts sufficient drag on the gears to slow down the disk. The oil should be 600W. One check would be to start the engine with the clutch pedal depressed and the trans in low gear. After engine start continue to depress the clutch pedal, move the shift to neutral, wait momentarily, than slowly shift back to low gear. If there is any grinding something is holding/touching the disk or input shaft and causing rotation. As previously mentioned, a sluggish pilot bearing could be causing the input shaft and disk to rotate. Another possibility could be the disk spline not translating smoothly on the input shaft resulting in the disk maintaining a light contact against the flywheel and continuing to rotate. If the issue cannot be determined externally, may be pulling the clutch apart for a detailed analysis. Constant gear clash will clearly result in major damage over time. Let us know what you determine.

[Railcarmover]

If your inspecting your slider gears if they have some clash wear its no big deal as long as the full tooth isn't worn..the flat spot on top of the tooth is the telltale,if its not square the tooth is worn

you have a clutch problem.at a full stop with the engine running it should go into gear without clashing.

[ryanheacox]

I think I remember seeing you have an early 28 roadster. Multi disc clutch?

[chrs1961815]

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Originally Posted by ryanheacox

I think I remember seeing you have an early 28 roadster. Multi disc clutch?

The vehicle is an early 28 but many things have been switched out for later versions of parts and I think the transmission is one of them. Still has the left hand brake though.

[ryanheacox]

Hopefully someone more familiar with the e28's will respond but I have read that the teeth in the flywheel can get packed with dust and keep the clutch from releasing. If you have the floorboards out you can tell pretty easily if your car has been converted to the later clutch/bell housing/transmission.

[rotorwrench]

Most of the early ones were switched out for the single disc for the Ford service bulletin that came out way back when. When the transmission is in neutral and clutch engaged, the input shaft and cluster still rotate with the engine. Disengaging the clutch allows the heavy oil in the transmission to slow the counter shaft cluster to a stop. It has to stop for a decent shift to low gear. Like the guys have mentioned, the tip of the pilot can get galled into the pilot bearing which will cause the input to rotate. Another thing that can happen is a bad misalignment of the clutch housing on the engine. They are generally shimmed to get straight alignment with the crank and flywheel. If it's off far enough, it will pull the input shaft to one side due to transmission misalignment so that's another possibility that may need checking.

[Patrick L.]

As per #19, did you look at the clutch operation with the cover removed ?

[chrs1961815]

I did start the car with the inspection cover off and it looks like the throwout bearing turns just very slowly in neutral when the clutch is up. Depressed in neutral everything sped up. I am not a transmission guy in general so I don't really know what this means?

[Bill G]

Check to make sure that something is not getting in the way of depressing the clutch pedal all the way. I once routed turn signal wires throught eh gap around the felt to the steering column and the wires were actually getting in the way of pushing the pedal all the way. Just something to watch out for.

[Ranchero50]

Originally Posted by chrs1961815

I did start the car with the inspection cover off and it looks like the throwout bearing turns just very slowly in neutral when the clutch is up. Depressed in neutral everything sped up. I am not a transmission guy in general so I don't really know what this means?

When you press the clutch pedal you should feel the resistance decrease towards the end of it's travel and the clutch arms over center. With the clutch all the way out you should have some clearance between the clutch levers and the throw out bearing. too much clearance and your clutch isn't releasing all the way.

[Patrick L.]

When the clutch pedal is released the throw outwearing should not touch the pressure plate fingers, the bearing should not spin. So again the question is how much free-play in the pedal is there ? Should be 1.0-1.5". That is enough to allow the bearing just enough clearance to not contact the fingers.

The pressure plate is attached to the engine/flywheel while the clutch disk is attached to the transmission. When the pedal is pushed the pressure plate should release the disk from spinning letting it slow down to a stop and allow shifting.

[Johnny Nitro]

Can you shift smoothly if you push in the clutch, and wait a few seconds before selecting a gear?

[chrs1961815]

Originally Posted by Johnny Nitro

Can you shift smoothly if you push in the clutch, and wait a few seconds before selecting a gear?

No, nothing. I have also noticed that it is getting harder to shift too.

[Purdy Swoft]

May be holding the clutch pedal depressed too long .

[chrs1961815]

Bad Update: after getting it to run nicely after retiming and some other things, I enjoyed the car. Tonight on the way home my clutch stopped working all together and left me scratching my head and calling a tow truck. I pulled the floorboards and the inspection plate and couldn't find anything that looked seriously wrong to me. Then I took a magnet to the bottom of the trans and pulled out 4 springs! Were these from the pressure plate adjusters or something else? Where do I go from here?

[katy]

Were these from the pressure plate adjusters or something else?

They would be from out of the pressure plate.

Where do I go from here?

You need to replace the clutch ass'y, and possibly the release (throwout) bearing.

[Patrick L.]

The springs came from the bell housing or the transmission ?

If from the bell housing/clutch, then the clutch needs to be replaced. I'd recommend replacing bearing, plate and disk. Set up the flywheel with assembled clutch on the bench and check/adjust the pressure plate fingers. Then take it apart and put it in the car. Then set the free play to 1.0-1.5".

[30 Closed Cab PU]

If I remember correctly, there are two types of plates that the springs fit into. One style holds the clutch springs captive, one style does not. I am not a mechanic, but wanted to raise this point, if true would hate to see him get the wrong type and encounter this again.


Perhaps others can confirm/direct him to the info? Or tell me I do not know what I am talking about.

[Tom Endy]

A few years back the Model A hobby was inundated with poor quality clutch disks. The six springs were not secured correctly and could come loose and jam the clutch. Most suppliers by now carry a quality disk. See attached article.

However, I don't see how a clutch disk spring could get inside the transmission.

[chrs1961815]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

If I remember correctly, there are two types of plates that the springs fit into. One style holds the clutch springs captive, one style does not. I am not a mechanic, but wanted to raise this point, if true would hate to see him get the wrong type and encounter this again.


Perhaps others can confirm/direct him to the info? Or tell me I do not know what I am talking about.

I would like to know as well. This trans was converted to a single disk.

[chrs1961815]

Getting together some people to help take the trans out to replace the disk, pressure plate, and throwout bearing. Hopefully only a few days of work. I will keep you all updated.

[Railcarmover]

Drop the rear axle,split at the clamshell.pull trans and bell housing.

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by chrs1961815

Getting together some people to help take the trans out to replace the disk, pressure plate, and throwout bearing. Hopefully only a few days of work. I will keep you all updated.

While it is front of you, why not the trans bearings,& pilot..I would also do a rehab on the tower..

[Purdy Swoft]

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I agree , especially replace transmission bearings while it is out !!!

[Patrick L.]

Your question about the pressure plate was answered by Tom in #41.

[ryanheacox]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

A few years back the Model A hobby was inundated with poor quality clutch disks. The six springs were not secured correctly and could come loose and jam the clutch. Most suppliers by now carry a quality disk. See attached article.

However, I don't see how a clutch disk spring could get inside the transmission.

Yep, that’s what I have in my car... Bought the clutch kit years ago and installed it with the new engine. Crossing my fingers things stay where they’re supposed to.

[ryanheacox]

Also, yes definitely rehab the transmission while it’s out. I didn’t when I had mine out to do the engine and I ended up pulling it 500 miles later to rebuild it. Mine needed a cluster gear. If yours is quiet you’ll probably be fine with bearings only.

[chrs1961815]

Originally Posted by ryanheacox

Also, yes definitely rehab the transmission while it’s out. I didn’t when I had mine out to do the engine and I ended up pulling it 500 miles later to rebuild it. Mine needed a cluster gear. If yours is quiet you’ll probably be fine with bearings only.

As much as I don't want to cough up the money, I know sooner or later I have to do it. I am going to inspect the gears again tomorrow and make a determination.

Another funny thing is that when dissasembling some things for the overhaul I discovered that whoever restored the car used two bottom Universal Caps that were all pitted and unsightly. Luckily I have a nicer not pitted set lying around.