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Old 07-13-2019, 12:54 PM   #1
coachstaff
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Default Model B engine

I inherited a 1931 deluxe roadster that I'm told has a factory installed model b engine. Could this be true?
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Old 07-13-2019, 01:33 PM   #2
Joe K
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Default Re: Model B engine

Almost certainly not. But proof would be in the frame to engine numbering.

All Model A's of domestic production have a number on the frame top rail which is about under the driver's left foot as he drives. Covered by the body, a body removal is necessary to confirm this number.

The engines and frames were numbered the same from the factory on the assembly line. If yours is indeed a "factory B" then this would be the case.

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Old 07-13-2019, 02:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: Model B engine

Post the engine number and someone will give the production date.
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Old 07-13-2019, 03:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Model B engine

Ford Dagenham [ Gt Britain] did produce AA Trucks after 1931 [ maybe up to 1936] with the BB engine in AA chassis.
Other than these commercials, no B engines would have gone into an A chassis ; would not have been set up for on the production line in US. Ford was producing the B engine in late '31 & stockpiling for the yet to be released Model B [ April 1932].
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Old 07-13-2019, 03:40 PM   #5
Keith True
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Default Re: Model B engine

Also,the B engine blocks were not stamped.(USA anyway) The flywheel housing was stamped.I had an A with a B engine,it had the 1930 frame number stamped on it.Those pads were bare from the factory.Seeing how there was a huge surplus of engines at the year end of 1931 it would be pretty much out of the question that an A came with a B engine.A picture of the right,(carb side) of the engine would answer at least one question.
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Old 07-13-2019, 03:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: Model B engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
Almost certainly not. But proof would be in the frame to engine numbering.

All Model A's of domestic production have a number on the frame top rail which is about under the driver's left foot as he drives. Covered by the body, a body removal is necessary to confirm this number.

The engines and frames were numbered the same from the factory on the assembly line. If yours is indeed a "factory B" then this would be the case.

Joe K
Many a Model B engine has been stamped with a Model A or AA engine number by individuals that installed such an engine in their car or truck.
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Old 07-13-2019, 04:01 PM   #7
Joe K
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Default Re: Model B engine

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Originally Posted by ursus View Post
Many a Model B engine has been stamped with a Model A or AA engine number by individuals that installed such an engine in their car or truck.
There are few "unmarked" Model A engines out there. I have one of them. (Its red and I'm assuming its an Allstate replacement from the 1950s.)

There are a few more "ground down" Model A engines down there.

Probably most of the above have been re-marked somehow, either in a frame number (hard to tell from original), a vendor number, or the birthdate of the owner.

There are less Model B engines of either of these ilk, with the smallest number of any a re-marked Model B.

But no doubt on what you say. An owner might have possibly secured an unmarked, unground Model B engine, had it appropriately made to match his chassis assuming he could access and ascertain the chassis number, and incorporated it into his car simply to claim "I have a factory original Model B engine."

However, I expect you will think this remote. Most in the 1930s & 40s who sought a replacement engine would seek out a Model B and slap it in as a "better" engine than original. Engines were cheap, labor to even change out shims was expensive, and an engine could be bought and swapped cheaper than doing a shim job right.

It makes for interesting sales copy or bragging right to claim it "original."

And given the oral histories that accumulate upon automobiles, I can certainly agree to the claim with a "How do you know this?" And not to then dispute the claim no matter the reason given.

Sometimes you just go with the flow.

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Old 07-13-2019, 06:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Model B engine

And if it is a B engine it will have a spot for the fuel pump on passenger side.
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Old 07-13-2019, 06:13 PM   #9
Charlie Stephens
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Default Re: Model B engine

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Originally Posted by coachstaff View Post
I inherited a 1931 deluxe roadster that I'm told has a factory installed model b engine. Could this be true?
Why do you think it is a Model B engine? The Model B engine has a provision for a fuel pump on the right side. There was a high performance head for the Model A that had a letter "B" cast into it, is this what you are looking at? Photos are great.

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Old 07-16-2019, 02:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Model B engine

I checked and there is a provision plate for a fuel pump on the right side. The frame # A4666273 It has 3 bolts on the water pump. I have owned it for 5 years. My wife's uncle had it garaged stored for 58 years and purchased it from an individual who's father had it barn stored for 20+ years. It had 5,106 miles on a sealed odometer. When it was serviced it's crankshaft was a model b.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Model B engine

Ah - but what is the number on the motor?

You have two choices for location. The Model A location above the water inlet, or on the top of the flywheel housing.

Vince Falter has much to say on Model B. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABenginenumbers.htm#C6
Quote:
US (Rouge) Model B Engines

Model B 'engine' serial numbers started at 5,000,000 and increased sequentially. The assigned serial number was actually stamped on the (B-6395) flywheel housings of completed engines after they had passed run-in (run-off) tests and were released from the Engine Department for vehicle final assembly. The number pad above the block water inlet was left unstamped on US and Canadian built Model B engines.
So even a stamped number on the block/water inlet area matching your frame is unlikely to be THE number it had when it left the factory for a couple of reasons. And two numbers at the two locations might not agree.

Take a look at all of Vince's page. Numbering varied between countries and times.

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Old 07-16-2019, 03:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: Model B engine

Up until the electronic/computer age^& especially in the '30's, for Ford the engine number was the serial number of the car, what we now call 'vin'. If the car had a B engine installed new, the number on flywheel housing or maybe on the block, will have to match the chassis number.
As mentioned above, Vince Falters Fordgarage site has the best info on identifying B engines. Cheers.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Model B engine

A4666273 is a May 1931 engine number and the first B number is Nov 1931.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:25 PM   #14
coachstaff
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Default Re: Model B engine

The block/water inlet area is stamped with 72947
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:45 AM   #15
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Default Re: Model B engine

My guess is it has a small diamond by the timing cover and is a diamond block replacement motor. I believe it was very common to stamp the model number on the replacement motor. I have two model B diamond blocks. Both are stamped with A or AA model numbers.
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Model B engine

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Originally Posted by coachstaff View Post
The block/water inlet area is stamped with 72947
Sounds like the date the engine was installed, 7-29-47
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Model B engine

A friend has a '31 widebed produced in and registered as a '32. It has an A engine.
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Model B engine

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Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
A friend has a '31 widebed produced in and registered as a '32. It has an A engine.
How did he determine it was produced in 1932? Was the serial number from an engine produced in '32? If it was a leftover sold in '32 it would have been titled as a '32 as defined by most DMV's at the time. If it was produced outside of the continental US they were a little slower on making the change over.

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Old 07-18-2019, 04:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: Model B engine

So what kind of flywheel housing do you have? If it is the Model B housing it will have a number on top, or possibly be blank.

Model B Housing - Note the script Ford which is plainly seen next to the starter motor. Other differences on the oil pan, too.

If it is an A-housing, then the Jury is DEFINITELY out on break.

Model A Housing - note no script and a full diameter housing.



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Old 07-18-2019, 09:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: Model B engine

Be cautious trying to identify the motor by the housing.
Many "B" motors have been placed in "A" vehicles using the "A" housing.

Fuel pump boss and oil return tube is most reliable identity, besides opening it up and measuring the crank & rods.

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