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Old 07-10-2019, 11:26 AM   #1
all american boy
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Default Hot Rodding Methods

The two limiting factors to getting the engine to turn high rpm's are the ignition and the valve action. Says the ignition just is not firing the fixture completely above 5000rpm.


Then the valves 'crash' above 5000 rpm.So that is what needs to be improved.



Says the factory engine is good for 5000 RPM and the goal is to get it to turn about 7000 rpm.



This info is from the 1959 Hot Rod annual 'Hot Rodding Methods' article.


Once the engine can run at 7000 rpm then it is on to improving the breathing of the engine to burn more fuel and air mixture.


Which consists of 2 4bbls or 3 2bbl's, port work, bigger valves and such.



This is a darn good roadmap to building your engine for better acceleration and top speed.


This clear thinking in these books is first class!
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:28 AM   #2
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

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Originally Posted by all american boy View Post
The two limiting factors to getting the engine to turn high rpm's are the ignition and the valve action. Says the ignition just is not firing the fixture completely above 5000rpm.


Then the valves 'crash' above 5000 rpm.So that is what needs to be improved.



Says the factory engine is good for 5000 RPM and the goal is to get it to turn about 7000 rpm.



This info is from the 1959 Hot Rod annual 'Hot Rodding Methods' article.


Once the engine can run at 7000 rpm then it is on to improving the breathing of the engine to burn more fuel and air mixture.


Which consists of 2 4bbls or 3 2bbl's, port work, bigger valves and such.



This is a darn good roadmap to building your engine for better acceleration and top speed.


This clear thinking in these books is first class!

If you want to keep running 60 year old technology use a dual point distributor with extra strong springs on the points. Then throw some shims under the strongest valve springs available in 1959. Be sure to carry a broom to sweep broken parts off the track!
Or, update that 430 with a good electronic ignition setup like MSD or Accel. This will give reliable ignition at any RPM you can turn. Then get a modern valve train kit (valves, keepers, retainers, locks, springs, pushrods, rockers if available). Also a modern cam grind! Again, this will let you turn any RPM you're brave/foolish enough to try for! Simple!!
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:04 AM   #3
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Thanks you 40Deluxe


Sounds good!


When we were going at it a 7000 RPM build was not on our scope.


It was either the 5500 RPM one we built or 10,000 RPM which we knew to stay away from.


So this 7000 RPM one is a new idea to us.


Think it will be real interesting to build one.


Do all this stuff that takes a lot of man hours to do and have the time now.


All the time in the world.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

http://www.oocities.org/yblockhead/KarolMiller.html Interesting read. Never knew Y blocks could turn that fast.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

'Never knew Y blocks could turn that fast'


Sure can.Keep in mind it is a little smarter to leave Mr Y Block alone and go get yourself an engine that is a little more plentiful to do that kind of thing with.


Karol Miller contributed to another Hot Rod article which we have.


Remember his ideas about lightening valves and rockers.


Which the way to do it then was by grinding away anything you thought it would still work without.


If you are going to scatter an engine our choice is small block Ford or GM.
Tons of parts to 'try it again'.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Correction.Karol Miller article we have is in Hop Up Your Engine December 1959.


The engine has Isky 'Cam Kit'.Camshaft, HD spings, tubular pushrods and some other parts.
He lightened valves and rockers to 'a fraction of their weight'.


Says it will run up to 7100 RPM.


Kids.If you are going to try this at home here are some tips.


When you rev up the engine put the car on jackstands with the floorjack under the differential.


Rev the engine with trans in high gear and facing OUT of the garage not IN to the garage.Have somebody behind the wheel with good reflexes.


Rear wheels will be spinning and if it falls off jackstands and floorjack it will take off on you!



Not good for the engine to free rev it with no load on the engine.


This is how they tune the cars at drag strips in Southern California.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5851a View Post
http://www.oocities.org/yblockhead/KarolMiller.html Interesting read. Never knew Y blocks could turn that fast.
Plus he drove to and from Bonneville, from Texas. He had horseshoe shims he put under the valve springs when he got to Bonneville, ran 7200 RPM, then removed the shims for the trip home, all without having to remove the valve springs.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Found Hot Rod annual about Isky doing testing to develop new grinds for new

Chevy 348.Okay.It's not a Ford 292 or a 312 but close enough.


They were consistently reving up to 6500 rpm and producing maximum horsepower at those RPM's.


The higher RPM's were achieved with roller tappet cam packages.


They burned a hole in a piston.The culprit was distributor not providing enough advance.


Said that could be remedied with stock distributor set for full advance at high RPM'S.Said better solution was twin coil.


These results are all dyno proven.The article has charts of RPM and HP readings.


So.Same thing can be done to Ford OHV V8 (Y block).


In that era '58 MEL's were called 'angle block' engines.


Don't recall what they called '58 FE's.Conventional head?
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

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Originally Posted by all american boy View Post
Found Hot Rod annual about Isky doing testing to develop new grinds for new

Chevy 348.Okay.It's not a Ford 292 or a 312 but close enough.


They were consistently reving up to 6500 rpm and producing maximum horsepower at those RPM's.


The higher RPM's were achieved with roller tappet cam packages.


They burned a hole in a piston.The culprit was distributor not providing enough advance.


Said that could be remedied with stock distributor set for full advance at high RPM'S.Said better solution was twin coil.


These results are all dyno proven.The article has charts of RPM and HP readings.


So.Same thing can be done to Ford OHV V8 (Y block).


In that era '58 MEL's were called 'angle block' engines.


Don't recall what they called '58 FE's.Conventional head?

Interesting! It's amazing that those long ago "experts" failed to check the amount of advance. That is a basic tuning procedure!
And dual coil ignition is hopelessly outdated. A single epoxy filled coil and electronic ignition is far better, even with the old stock distributor. And if you really want to modernize, use the coil-on-plug (COP) system with computer controlled timing.

Here's an interesting tidbit from the 1958 Ford ads for the FE engine: They showed a basic cutaway head-on view of the engine with a white line showing the flow from the carb to the ports and labeled it "Precision Fuel Induction"! Likely a silly attempt to associate it with Chevy's fuel injection!
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Porting


One book says headwork doubles the power increase of camshaft and valve train improvements.


Couple articles have porting tips for specific engines.Remember 'unshrouding the valve seat pockets'.'Smoothing intake and exhaust runners'.


Does mention removing material from the combustion chamber decreases the compression ratio.Has tips for raising again.


Says to match intake ports to the intake manifold and exhaust ports to the exhaust manifold/headers.


Might give it a try.
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Old 07-12-2019, 05:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Port science has improved tremendously in the past 60 years! Those old articles are pretty much wrong! In 1957 we marveled at a 283 Chevy with fuel injection making 283 horsepower! And a '57 Ford 312 with supercharger making 300 horsepower! Wow! And they ran what, 15 seconds in the quarter? Now little 2.0 four bangers do that and quicker. New aluminum heads for old style engines also up the power significantly with modern port theory and combustion chamber design.
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Old 07-12-2019, 05:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

' Those old articles are pretty much wrong!'

Wrong at what?

The common sense and enthusiasm in these articles plus CONFIDENCE is what we're looking at.

These articles are a guide to doing just what they claim to do.

We are happy with them.
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Quote:
Originally Posted by all american boy View Post
' Those old articles are pretty much wrong!'

Wrong at what?

The common sense and enthusiasm in these articles plus CONFIDENCE is what we're looking at.

These articles are a guide to doing just what they claim to do.

We are happy with them.

Well, as I remember those how-to articles, they were state-of-the-art for the time for the most part. Some were just page fillers, though. Anyway, they recommended polishing all the ports to a mirror finish as much as possible. Modern research has proven that intake ports should not be polished. I don't remember those articles emphasizing the importance of a consistent cross section throughout the length of the port, either.
If you're building your engine to 60 year old standards for the nostalgia of it, then I say go for it and have fun!
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

'for the most part'


That is good enough for us.


The lakes crowd running in class with restrictions are interested in



absolutely squeezing the most power out of their rigs.


We're just 'reworking'(from one of books) engine.



Still have to look at Analyzer manual for next ignition item to check.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:52 AM   #15
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Cool thread.


Most drags run magnetos. MSD. Weight vs hp is key. Yblocks are heavy. If the car is lite, lots of torque on a yblock, but still heavy over a hemi or other . rail car?



Super cool thread! oh I said that already.

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Old 07-16-2019, 10:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

My father simply said, "Your car can only use stock parts." That was the end of "How to Soup Up Ford and Mercury Flathead V-8's by Floyd Clymer. My friend sold me Chevrolet V-8 out of a farm to market milk truck that did not get sent back to warranty claim after it seized and was replaced. Fortunately, Racer Brown had written articles on the new for 1955 Chevrolet V-8 that included part numbers for the entire innards of the Fuel Injection Corvette available not from aftermarket sources. With a Duntov cam and the oiling flat machined for 1956 but overdone a bit by a machinist to simply copy the hydraulic lifter flat on the 1956 cam 7200 rpm would show the oil pressure needle waving like a hand. The limit then was shifting at 6500 rpm with a Ford Long type semicentrifugal clutch and stock strength clutch linkage. Avoid those big inch Olds strokers to avoid 5500 rpm and be a bit challenged by the angle block 348 Chevrolet and 352 Ford until a baby blue 1956 Ford Tudor with a McCullouch supercharger, 3-speed and a 312 came and blew off an Impala convertible with a Continental kit and Turboglide. My first carburetor was a Carter WC 2-barrel with metering rods that had it's float crushed by an upside down AC electric fuel pump. In 1960 the new manger at the A & P who had an Olds powered 1940 coupe and sold me a Mallory Magspark and centrifugal only distributor bought a new 1960 Ford Starliner with the 352 Interceptor engine Cruisamatic. Pinnebog Road had new asphalt and he thought I should honor him with a test of wills. "Convert RPMs to fragments vs. no substitute for cubic inches."
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

'Mallory Magspark'


What's that?


'1960 Ford Starliner with the 352 Interceptor engine Cruisamatic'


The first FE's were smallish.Earlier all makes OHV V8's were too.


Think it was the casting techniques were not good enough yet.


Lincoln,Mercury and Edsel 383, 410 and 430 were first 'Ford Motors' big ones.


'Racer Brown had written articles on the new for 1955 Chevrolet V-8'


Been reading the same kind of thing.Interesting as all get out.


'part numbers for the entire innards of the Fuel Injection Corvette available not from aftermarket sources.'


That is the way Ford Motorsports and Chrysler Direct Connection and Chevrolet something work.


Guess Racer Brown was a pioneer of that.
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:24 AM   #18
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

"casting techniques not good enough"? I think it was more of a sales technique! Design an engine capable of say, 450 cu. in. but start at 332 cu. in. That way you can make it bigger over the years without having to design a brand new engine each time. So we have the Y-block going from 239 to 312, the little six going from 144 to 250, the 221 going to 302, International had a V8 design that went from 266 to 392, and the list goes on.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:39 AM   #19
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

The Mallory Magspark is a transformer made by Mallory that had two sides primary and one side secondary. It also had some large external capacitors available separately. "Boots" Mallory had a factory in Detroit and would run a used distributor through it for a modest fee and dyno-tune the result. Well, I got the run through and could have added vacuum advance at that time but no dynotune for me.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: Hot Rodding Methods

Thanks 40Deluxe


' I think it was more of a sales technique'


Could be.


'two sides primary and one side secondary'


Sounds worth looking into.


One of these little hot rod books has explanation of how coil is made and works.Very useful!


SIDE NOTE:Plan is to put some engine in a lightweight tube frame and



THEN see how much 'more engine' we want.


Experiment #1 will be basically stock engine in light frame.See if it is scary fast without having to pull all the weight around anymore.


Back to this.


Will continue with 'high rpm' push to the limits building compared to large cubic inch low stessed engine build.


You have to add in different purposes.An Indy car will always be small engine.A Super Stock will be a big heavy car.


It gets complicated in a way.
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