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Old 04-24-2015, 03:04 PM   #1
SofaKing
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Default 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

I am replacing one of the differential carrier bearings/ races in my 36 banjo. The instructions in my Ford manual for 39-40 states that an .008-.010 shim is placed on the right axle housing and it is bolted to the center section, install the diff assembly, same shim on left housing, bolt it together. Here's the quirky part; it then states that you "turn both axles by hand in the same direction and there should be perceptible drag while the pinion turns." If it is too tight it states that ONLY the right side should be shimmed.

Everything I have read here and on the HAMB indicates both axle housings are shimmed equally.

It had .005 on both sides when I disassembled it so I started there. Too tight, changed right side to .007, too tight, changed left side so both now at .007 and I can turn both axles in same direction and the pinion turns with significant drag.

My 60 year old "Motor" manual states there is no difference between the 36 axle and the 39 except the introduction of hypoid gears in 39 but it doesn't give instructions for setting the adjustment. I did not change anything on the pinion setting, the ring and pinion were beautiful when I took them apart.

Anyone have experience with this and care to weigh in?
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

Besides preload, varying gasket thicknesses are also used to set pinion backlash so you may very well end up with different thicknesses from side to side.
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

New bearing and races today are not an exact replacement, a couple of thousandths different in measurements. Therefore you will have a thicker requirement for the shims at the bells. Once you have the correct total shim thickness requirement, you split that between left hand and right hand side to adjust the pinion backlash. Be patient and take your time.
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Old 04-25-2015, 05:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

That is correct. Just to clear this up for you---with the bell shims you are making adjustments in TWO different areas. First is the running clearance or preload on the bearings. And second is the backlash or clearance between the pinion and ring gears. Get the bearing preload established with the total shim thickness then maintain that total thickness but divide from side to side to move the ring gear closer to or farther away from the pinion gear.
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Old 04-25-2015, 06:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by SofaKing View Post
My 60 year old "Motor" manual states there is no difference between the 36 axle and the 39 except the introduction of hypoid gears in 39 but it doesn't give instructions for setting the adjustment. I did not change anything on the pinion setting, the ring and pinion were beautiful when I took them apart.
Anyone have experience with this and care to weigh in?
If your Motor manual is referring to hypoid gears being introduced for early Ford V-8 passenger cars and light commercial vehicles in '39, that would be incorrect information. The '39 Ford banjo rear had spiral bevel gears.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

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Thanks for the input. I set it per the Ford manual so it has "perceptible drag" when I turn both axles the same direction, pinion backlash is given at .006"-.010" and I am at .007". Judging from the comments maybe I was remembering all those past threads incorrectly.
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Old 04-25-2015, 12:50 PM   #7
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

i thought hypoid gear means the pinon gear is below center of the ring gear.
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Old 04-25-2015, 05:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

Rear axle backlash is measured at the pinion yoke with a dial indicator. Too little backlash requires a thicker right side banjo gasket. Too much means a thinner gasket on the right side only. Try for about .005, but don't exceed .010. The pinion bearing should have between 12-17 inch pounds of drag when properly set.
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Old 04-26-2015, 01:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

The correct info is all here, as long as you pick the 'right' comments. First, there is no rule that gaskets (shims) need to be equal on each side.
And, second, my preference is to NOT use that old procedure that involves two people turning the axles by hand, to 'feel' bearing drag. I don't feel it's a reliable way to get preload correct (at least not for me).
My preference... Set carrier preload FIRST. With no pinion in there, and preferably NO axles in there. Let gravity be your friend - do this with the axle housings vertical and properly supported. This allows you to FEEL the carrier preload, without any other influence from axle drag, pinion preload, or other factors. This can be done with ALL the gaskets (shims) on ONE side, usually the left. After this is done, WRITE DOWN what gasket thicknesses you have in there. Then, for following steps, you can divide them as necessary for backlash and pattern, keeping the TOTAL gasket thickness always the same. If you damage a gasket, you know what thickness needs to be replaced. (A 'substitute' banjo can be used for this. Simply measure the substitute banjo width, and actual (one you will be using) banjo width, compare widths, and compensate any variation when you pick the gasket pack. This 'substitute' banjo comment would apply if you already have the pinion installed in the banjo you plan to use.)
Second, set the pinion pre-load. By itself. In the banjo, by itself, with NO axle housings (bells). So you can feel pinion preload, without other influences.
Third, put the thing together (for the first time), and see where you are for backlash and pattern. For this step, divide the gaskets any way you want, and equal amounts on both sides is not a bad way to start.
I've found that if I'm using genuine old Ford-script gears and bearings, I haven't yet had to adjust the pinion position - it is set correctly. I don't know if this works out for modern replacement gears. I've read that it does not, and the pinion might need to be moved.
Repeat this third step as many times as necessary to get the results you want.
Many guys will question my comment on checking pattern, as apparently it is not commonly checked by many Ford mechanics. I've always checked pattern on ANY rear end that I've set up, and I feel it's worth the effort.
If you look over on the other sites, BillB's techno site, there is a bunch of info there, which includes a detailed explaination on this procedure to set up a banjo. If you research the Model A sites, you will probably find what to do to shim bearings (carrier) if you can't get preload the normal way. And, what to do to move the pinion, if you have to.
For set-up, I don't try to use the Ford banjo bolts (slight interference fit). I use hardware-store bolts (non-interference). For the last & final assembly, I put the correct Ford bolts back in. (Never, never, run an ordinary tap into the banjo threads. They are 'tight', on purpose, and by design.)
Don't be surprised if this total procedure takes days, if not weeks, if you are thorough and don't try to cut corners. With practice, it is possible (maybe with some luck) to assemble maybe two or three times. If it's your first one, probably 3 or 4 times.
Just opinion...
I didn't 'invent' this procedure - it was handed to me by older and more experienced Ford guys. With some looking, I could find an older version of this from a guy (I think John Deats, Long Beach) that used to do Columbia's, and included what to if a Columbia is part of the setup. And, also, this procedure is also available from the club guru's - I saw the procedure available from Dan Krehbiel, and others.

Last edited by bobH; 04-26-2015 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 04-26-2015, 02:01 AM   #10
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by SofaKing View Post
I am replacing one of the differential carrier bearings/ races in my 36 banjo. The instructions in my Ford manual for 39-40 states that an .008-.010 shim is placed on the right axle housing and it is bolted to the center section, install the diff assembly, same shim on left housing, bolt it together. Here's the quirky part; it then states that you "turn both axles by hand in the same direction and there should be perceptible drag while the pinion turns." If it is too tight it states that ONLY the right side should be shimmed.

Everything I have read here and on the HAMB indicates both axle housings are shimmed equally.

It had .005 on both sides when I disassembled it so I started there. Too tight, changed right side to .007, too tight, changed left side so both now at .007 and I can turn both axles in same direction and the pinion turns with significant drag.

My 60 year old "Motor" manual states there is no difference between the 36 axle and the 39 except the introduction of hypoid gears in 39 but it doesn't give instructions for setting the adjustment. I did not change anything on the pinion setting, the ring and pinion were beautiful when I took them apart.

Anyone have experience with this and care to weigh in?
Back to your ORIGINAL question. You say you are replacing ONE carrier bearing. And, you didn't say it, but imply that the rear end assembly was 'ok' before you started this change. And, you say that you measured (?) .005 gaskets on BOTH sides, when you took it apart.
So, here's my thinking... If you don't want to take it all apart and start over, and if you feel it was 'right' originally, then I would proceed like so...
On the side where you DIDN'T change the carrier bearing, I'd put .005 back in there, just as you say it was when you took it apart. This would leave the carrier positioned exactly where it was, originally.
Then, you say with ONE new carrier bearing, 'too-tight'. So, I would add shims to that side ONLY, to get the feel that you want. This would leave the carrier positioned just as it was, originally. And, it would allow for you to 'feel' the carrier preload as best you can, with the one new bearing.
I would also note that there once was a time when bearings were very 'precision', dimensionally. So, if your replacement bearing is a genuine, old-time Ford/Timken bearing, I'd be very leary of your 'too-tight' comment. I'd suspect the race or bearing is not fully seated. So, I'd check for that, because it used to be that you could replace a bearing, and find NO change in preload. If you have a modern replacement bearing, I don't know what to think regarding dimensions, and I'd shim as necessary.
Again, just opinion

Last edited by bobH; 04-26-2015 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 04-26-2015, 10:12 PM   #11
SofaKing
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

Just opinion...
I didn't 'invent' this procedure .[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your time to write such a detailed response. As it turns out I did several of the things you suggested prior to reading your post. And like you I am not wild about the "turn both axels" gag. But that is what I used. I did check the tooth engagement and it looked like there was no perceptible change from the original pattern. With the .007 backlash and having not moved the pinion I am fairly confident It will be ok but it remains to be proved in service.

It took 3x to get the shimming correct per the book, I think I got lucky because I only changed the one bearing/race. I took it apart one more time to put the new seals in the bells before closing it up for good.

I have it back together and am now working on getting some tubing to repair the RH parking brake cable guide on the backing plate, after which I am going to finish assembling the torque tube/ radius rods and get on with the engine re-assembly.

Thanks again to everyone for your input!
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Old 05-17-2021, 05:11 PM   #12
elwood
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Default Re: 36 Banjo Differential Carrier Bearing Adjustment

Ive built a hundred Differentials probably half of them early Ford banjos, and this is exactly how I set them up,, Cheers ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobH View Post
The correct info is all here, as long as you pick the 'right' comments. First, there is no rule that gaskets (shims) need to be equal on each side.
And, second, my preference is to NOT use that old procedure that involves two people turning the axles by hand, to 'feel' bearing drag. I don't feel it's a reliable way to get preload correct (at least not for me).
My preference... Set carrier preload FIRST. With no pinion in there, and preferably NO axles in there. Let gravity be your friend - do this with the axle housings vertical and properly supported. This allows you to FEEL the carrier preload, without any other influence from axle drag, pinion preload, or other factors. This can be done with ALL the gaskets (shims) on ONE side, usually the left. After this is done, WRITE DOWN what gasket thicknesses you have in there. Then, for following steps, you can divide them as necessary for backlash and pattern, keeping the TOTAL gasket thickness always the same. If you damage a gasket, you know what thickness needs to be replaced. (A 'substitute' banjo can be used for this. Simply measure the substitute banjo width, and actual (one you will be using) banjo width, compare widths, and compensate any variation when you pick the gasket pack. This 'substitute' banjo comment would apply if you already have the pinion installed in the banjo you plan to use.)
Second, set the pinion pre-load. By itself. In the banjo, by itself, with NO axle housings (bells). So you can feel pinion preload, without other influences.
Third, put the thing together (for the first time), and see where you are for backlash and pattern. For this step, divide the gaskets any way you want, and equal amounts on both sides is not a bad way to start.
I've found that if I'm using genuine old Ford-script gears and bearings, I haven't yet had to adjust the pinion position - it is set correctly. I don't know if this works out for modern replacement gears. I've read that it does not, and the pinion might need to be moved.
Repeat this third step as many times as necessary to get the results you want.
Many guys will question my comment on checking pattern, as apparently it is not commonly checked by many Ford mechanics. I've always checked pattern on ANY rear end that I've set up, and I feel it's worth the effort.
If you look over on the other sites, BillB's techno site, there is a bunch of info there, which includes a detailed explaination on this procedure to set up a banjo. If you research the Model A sites, you will probably find what to do to shim bearings (carrier) if you can't get preload the normal way. And, what to do to move the pinion, if you have to.
For set-up, I don't try to use the Ford banjo bolts (slight interference fit). I use hardware-store bolts (non-interference). For the last & final assembly, I put the correct Ford bolts back in. (Never, never, run an ordinary tap into the banjo threads. They are 'tight', on purpose, and by design.)
Don't be surprised if this total procedure takes days, if not weeks, if you are thorough and don't try to cut corners. With practice, it is possible (maybe with some luck) to assemble maybe two or three times. If it's your first one, probably 3 or 4 times.
Just opinion...
I didn't 'invent' this procedure - it was handed to me by older and more experienced Ford guys. With some looking, I could find an older version of this from a guy (I think John Deats, Long Beach) that used to do Columbia's, and included what to if a Columbia is part of the setup. And, also, this procedure is also available from the club guru's - I saw the procedure available from Dan Krehbiel, and others.
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