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11-18-2018, 12:46 PM | #1 |
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More flathead questions.
So, I pulled the pan yesterday and checked the bearings today. From what I've read, it appeared that this was a "war period" flatty as it has a crab style dizzy although IIRC, this dizzy went to 48 or 49. However, checking the crank journals, I have 2.114 throws which, according to what I've found, suggested a 1946 or later, turned .025. Does this make it a safe assumption that this engine is 1946-1949?. Also, I was expecting babbit but it has bearing shells and they are REALLY thick (relative to any other bearings I've ever dealt with). Would this engine have been manufactured with shells or is it a babbit/shell conversion??. I'm having issues getting the centre main cap off so i have yet to check the journal size of the mains.
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11-18-2018, 01:26 PM | #2 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
External parts get swaped around a lot so that doesn't tell you much. Babbit bearings were only used on the earlier 21 stud engines. The rod bearings should be floaters. Is there a 59 cast into the half bellhousing?
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11-18-2018, 01:29 PM | #3 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
My research has been informative but confusing. From what I can gather, <48 used full floating bearings. Mine does not so I looked at '49. However, '49 had a Rod bore of 2.229 and the <48, with the floating bearings has a rod bore of 2.3595, mine with fixed bearing shells has a rod bore of 2.356 (measured at the top of the cap with callipers so that would account for the .003-.004 discrepancy). Unless I'm missing something, (which is likely) it almost looks like this came with floating bearings and someone had the rods cut to accept fixed bearing shells. Thoughts??.
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11-18-2018, 01:38 PM | #4 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
There is just a 9 (or a 6) cast just to the right of centre. Another oddity I found while looking for the number on the half bellhouseing is that it appears to have an oil pressure sending unit (with a short wire attached but not going anywhere) but the truck did not have an oil pressure gauge or provisions for one.
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11-18-2018, 03:45 PM | #5 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/f...ifications.htm
Try the link above, it should help. |
11-18-2018, 03:54 PM | #6 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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11-18-2018, 03:57 PM | #7 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
If you could post some pics,always helpful. Any numbers on the rods? Mike
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11-18-2018, 09:04 PM | #8 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
A 2.229 rod bore is a .020 under crank size for a late 38 to 41 ford engine with 99a or 21A rods. I assume this is the crank in your engine. However this crank can be installed in any Block from 38 thru 53, and is a common racing practice.
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11-18-2018, 09:25 PM | #9 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
What is the main journal diameter? Hey Ron, don't you mean 91A rods? 99A were for a 2.139 journal.
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11-18-2018, 10:15 PM | #10 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Initially, the plan was to drop the pan to clean it out, check the bearings while the pan was off and put back together. However, the goo in the bottom of the pan felt gritty and, pulling one rod cap found copper showing so it needs bearings. I don't want to take the chance of any grit being in the lifter valley or anywhere else so will be pulling the motor tomorrow. Once I get it out and on a stand (will have to make an adapter to mount it), I will be able to take it apart and get better measurements off of the crank. I'm not expecting any other issues but we will see. Thanks for the input so far guys. very much appreciated.
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11-18-2018, 10:22 PM | #11 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Babbit's are mid 36 change. Mid yr change. 36LB motors. Babbits are not a bad deal, if there are shims left.
Think around 34 was the addition of cam bearings also. There is a better one I believe from the barn. Hope someone can add as I know this have been posted better then this link. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...cation.594463/ . Last edited by Tinker; 11-18-2018 at 10:28 PM. |
11-18-2018, 10:29 PM | #12 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Quote:
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11-18-2018, 10:32 PM | #13 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Well don't be sad inserts/floaters are easier then babbit. But now you know after mid36 inserts came into the scene. But that's not the only question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qEhj-rQSAU Last edited by Tinker; 11-18-2018 at 11:43 PM. |
11-18-2018, 10:56 PM | #14 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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11-18-2018, 10:58 PM | #15 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Super neat project dude!
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11-18-2018, 11:30 PM | #16 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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11-18-2018, 11:35 PM | #17 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Some Canadian 1948 blocks had insert bearings as opposed to floaters (rods). Think these should have a casting C69 somewhere on them (bell housing?). FOMOCO NZ got CKD fords ex FOMOCO Canada. I has a c69 block in a 47 coupe I had years ago...with the inset bearings. This was the start of transition to 8BA but was in the style of a 59 engine. It was a Ford Canada thing and didn't follow in the US I believe.
GB
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11-19-2018, 12:10 AM | #18 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
The 99a and the 21A rods are for the small 1.998 crank, and the 29A is for the 2.138 crank. I used both of these when racing. At present the new 258 race motor is with a late 38 crank and 99A rods. I hone these rods to 2.2215 for better oil flow. I also increase the rod side clearance to .012". You must realize that oil is also used for cooling the bearings, so flow is important.
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11-19-2018, 12:39 AM | #19 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Quote:
The 91A and 21A rods are for the earlier 1.999 Ford crank journal prior to 1946 and the 99A and 29A rods are for the 2.139 journal used through 1948. The 99A rod was used in 1939 and up for the Mercury or truck engine with the larger bore. The 29A rods were used on both Ford and Mercury engines between 1946 and 1948. |
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11-19-2018, 12:53 AM | #20 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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The rod bore does not indicate what the crankshaft undersize is. The rod bore defines the outer diameter for the bearing being used. Ford made engine bearings that fit oversize rod bore and undersize crankshaft diameter and these bearings can still be found today. |
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11-19-2018, 10:04 AM | #21 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
I just recieved a set of 99?? rods from a friend for the 258 project. I was looking for 21a rods, but he didn't have any so sent me these. I never measured them. I will now. When the 91 rod was mentioned above, I realized that I could be wrong, sorry about that, I'll check today.
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11-19-2018, 06:15 PM | #22 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Licenced to kill, The earlier post by Graeme is correct; you are Canadian, as is your engine. Those really thick, lock in shells you describe as out of your engine are a Canadian only thing. As New Zealand Fords were sourced from Canada, these things are quite commonly found down under, however, the majority of posters on this thread, being from USA, haven't seen this stuff. Your crankpins will have double holes in them in order each bearing gets lubed; the American full floater cranks only had one hole per journal, which lubed the entire full floater. Your conrods have those notches from the factory, the American rods, on account of the full floater design, did not have any need for the notches.
Now, the good news is that you can use your crank and rods with either the original style lock in shells, or the regular USA full floaters. All journal sizes/ rod bores are the same. You cannot use your lock in shells and rods on a single hole journalled crank!
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11-20-2018, 07:45 AM | #23 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Brian has it right - you have a Canadian version of a 59x series - with big thick ole' lock in bearing shells. I've never built one of these variants (with the lock-in shells). You may have a hard time finding replacement bearings - so you may need to go to either a later set of 49-53 rods with insert bearings (probably the best/easiest route) or go back to full-floaters . . . which do take some expertise to correctly size the shells for roundness. They absolutely need to "float" - if they do not, then the issues begin!
PS: You can buy a brand new set of 49-53 type rods from SoCal. While $270 may seem expensive, by the time you buy used rods and have them completely redone - you're usually out a similar amount of $$$. These rods use the inexpensive late/modern style bearings which are very inexpensive as compared to full-floaters. https://www.socalsac.com/Stock-Rod-7...flat001020.htm Last edited by Bored&Stroked; 11-20-2018 at 07:52 AM. |
11-20-2018, 12:46 PM | #24 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Quote:
Some of the original Ford bearings were all copper color when new. |
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11-20-2018, 07:24 PM | #25 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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11-21-2018, 09:28 AM | #26 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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There was/is no "mid-year" thing. "The Early Ford V8 as Henry Built It," Francis/DeAngelis, page 21.
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11-21-2018, 09:55 AM | #27 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
The Canadian C69A series engine was set up with shells on the rods. They have unique bearings that are thicker the 8BA types and I've heard that they are getting harder to source. A person can change the crank and rods over to 8BA types so at least the bearings are abundant. The C69 usually has the number on the back bell housing part of the block. These were post war engines that came on line somewhere in 1946. Inspect the oil porting on the back of the engine carefully. Some Canadian engines still had a pressure flow oil filtering system that was carried over from WWII. It has to be connected properly prior to use or the engine may not have oil pressure. Some applications even used an oil cooler set up.
Last edited by rotorwrench; 11-21-2018 at 10:03 AM. |
11-21-2018, 11:58 PM | #28 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Well I have to admit that my eyesight is getting worse or my memory is fading. Maybe both. Yes the 99 rods are for the large 2.138 crank journals, and are an early version of the 29A rods. That makes the 91a rod the small one. I"ll have to have my post edited by my dog "Stroker"
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11-22-2018, 02:40 PM | #29 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Pulled the engine and am in the process of disassembling, didn't notice the number cast in the block in front of the head before "C59A". A search on the forum confirms that this is a canadian block (which was already established) but nothing about years of production.
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11-22-2018, 10:46 PM | #30 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
1946 to 1948 model years. It was actually introduced in 1945, thus the 59A.
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11-23-2018, 10:07 AM | #31 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Canadian production was different then US production on engines, engine components, and a few other drive line components. The C59 engine should be about the same as the US 59 counterpart. The C69 had the updated crankshaft and replaced the C59 as the stocks were depleted. There has been a lot of water under the bridge though. The crank & rods could have been changed out at some previous overhaul. Large scale overhaul shops mixed & matched all the time.
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11-24-2018, 09:53 AM | #32 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Used rods need to be checked for straightness, have the pin bushings checked and potentially replaced, have the big-ends checked and maybe the caps machined and resized, honed, etc.. Shot-peened maybe . . . All in all, can easily be a couple hundred $$$. And - if they are full-floater rods, then creating a mirrored finish is critical - and most don't get this, nor know how to even do it.
Last edited by Bored&Stroked; 11-24-2018 at 11:07 AM. |
11-24-2018, 10:39 AM | #33 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
Also the wrist pin bushing are swagged into the rod before honing. Very few shops have the equipment to do this. I don't change the wrist pin bushing unless it really bad.
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11-24-2018, 11:36 AM | #34 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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Last edited by Licensed to kill; 11-24-2018 at 11:44 AM. |
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11-24-2018, 11:47 AM | #35 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. You will NEVER experience any "hung" valves during longer periods of storage. At some point this will happen w/o the liners, just a matter of when!
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11-24-2018, 11:53 AM | #36 | |
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Re: More flathead questions.
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11-25-2018, 03:56 AM | #37 |
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Re: More flathead questions.
I go with Graeme. Some Canadian engines had insert bearings.They were very thick shells and are now hard to find.The rods were big bore and I think would take floaters as compared to the smaller bore 8BA rods. Both cranks the same size.Cheers, Geoff
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