Replace early 28 AR starter

[skiplane]

I need to replace the starter on my 28 AR Roadster Pickup. Will the later starter work? How can I buy starter outright -- have no core?
Believe AR uses Abel starter with 1/2" shaft. Later starters have 5/8" shaft.

[Bob C]

Do you have a multiple disc or single disc clutch?


Bob

[skiplane]

Multiple disc

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by skiplane

Multiple disc

I just sent you an E-Mail Fred..

[Joe K]

Les Andrews:
"Two different starter motors and bendix drive assemblies were installed on the Model A. The two are not interchangeable. The early starter motor (Abell) was used from beginning of production until Oct 1, 1928. This starter had a 1/2" motor shaft. The later starter motor (Oct. 1, 1928 to end of production) has a 5/8" motor shaft. The early bendix drive has a special form of ten-tooth pinion gear and can only be used with the early flywheel ring gear. The flywheel ring gear changed with the change in starter motor and bendix drive assembly.

Dec. 20 1932 Parts Price List:
Parts lists show B-6384 as the only flywheel ring gear available but dealers were advising both starter and ring gear be upgraded.

The assumed 5/8" starter/Bendix was A-11350-C. A special service starter A-11350-DR was available for 1928 cars. One assumes this took the place of the Abell starter and was of Bendix pinion.

Service Bulletins:
Show a A-18475 starter as the Abell replacement assembly embodying a Bendix pinion for earlier ring gears.

So some care is necessary going forward.

Joe K

[Synchro909]

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Originally Posted by Joe K

Les Andrews:
"Two different starter motors and bendix drive assemblies were installed on the Model A. The two are not interchangeable. The early starter motor (Abell) was used from beginning of production until Oct 1, 1928. This starter had a 1/2" motor shaft. The later starter motor (Oct. 1, 1928 to end of production) has a 5/8" motor shaft. The early bendix drive has a special form of ten-tooth pinion gear and can only be used with the early flywheel ring gear. The flywheel ring gear changed with the change in starter motor and bendix drive assembly.

Dec. 20 1932 Parts Price List:
Parts lists show B-6384 as the only flywheel ring gear available but dealers were advising both starter and ring gear be upgraded.

The assumed 5/8" starter/Bendix was A-11350-C. A special service starter A-11350-DR was available for 1928 cars. One assumes this took the place of the Abell starter and was of Bendix pinion.

Service Bulletins:
Show a A-18475 starter as the Abell replacement assembly embodying a Bendix pinion for earlier ring gears.

So some care is necessary going forward.

Joe K

Is there a way to tell which 1/2" drive starter we have from the outside?

[Brentwood Bob]

PM sent. I have a starter.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Is there a way to tell which 1/2" drive starter we have from the outside?

If it is 1/2 drive it is probably the superceded Abell unit.

Check out Service Bulletins Page 303 (original page number) where they describe the A-11350-C and the A-11350-DC replacement starters.

The A-11350-DC apparently refers only to the actual Bendix pinion unit. The instruction differentiates between "ball bearing" starters and "sleeve bearing" starters, with a different modification/installation instruction required for each.

If you digest this pretty thoroughly you should be good, even with Brentwood Bob's starter which may have been "upgraded." Or may be Abell - he doesn't say.

The half dozen or so starters I have here are all later 5/8" shaft sleeve units - but that is consistent with my 1929 & beyond acquisition modus. (i.e. random luck.)

Joe K

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Joe K

If it is 1/2 drive it is probably the superceded Abell unit.

Check out Service Bulletins Page 303 (original page number) where they describe the A-11350-C and the A-11350-DC replacement starters.

The A-11350-DC apparently refers only to the actual Bendix pinion unit. The instruction differentiates between "ball bearing" starters and "sleeve bearing" starters, with a different modification/installation instruction required for each.

If you digest this pretty thoroughly you should be good, even with Brentwood Bob's starter which may have been "upgraded." Or may be Abell - he doesn't say.

The half dozen or so starters I have here are all later 5/8" shaft sleeve units - but that is consistent with my 1929 & beyond acquisition modus. (i.e. random luck.)

Joe K

The reason I asked is one of the members here is coming to my place soon with his 1/2" starter which has been giving him trouble. I suspected the bendix all along and now wonder whether the problem might be a mis match between the ring gear and the bendix pinion. I intend putting a 5/8" starter together for him with a new bendix and 12v field windings. I'm hoping the ring gear has at some stage been changed to the later one, in which case, that could explain why he was having trouble and we should be OK. He has converted to 12 v which on its own might be asking a bit from a 1/2" starter if it is not altered. I trust the starter switch is interchangable.
This member lives quite a distance from me so I want to get it right first time.

[skiplane]

Fred,
Have not received email.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

The reason I asked is one of the members here is coming to my place soon with his 1/2" starter which has been giving him trouble. I suspected the bendix all along and now wonder whether the problem might be a mis match between the ring gear and the bendix pinion. I intend putting a 5/8" starter together for him with a new bendix and 12v field windings. I'm hoping the ring gear has at some stage been changed to the later one, in which case, that could explain why he was having trouble and we should be OK. He has converted to 12 v which on its own might be asking a bit from a 1/2" starter if it is not altered. I trust the starter switch is interchangable.
This member lives quite a distance from me so I want to get it right first time.

Another problem might be the ring gear.

Like its later 5/8" cousins, the ring gear in the early cars has the same potential failing in use. The engine tends to stop at one of two locations each about 180 degrees opposite. Thus, majority wear in starting on the ring gear occurs at these two locations.

Old timers knew this and we're talking the pre-WWII world of consumer availability. Ford was "pretty good" on keeping parts in stock - better than most actually in that day and age. But who could afford a new ring gear?

The mechanics solution in that day was to mark the position of the ring gear, take the ring gear off with a punch (evenly lest you bend it), and then heat and replace it 90 degrees from its former position. Thus bringing "new" (relatively) teeth into contact with the pinion portion.

Maybe herein lies a solution option for both OP and later?

Joe K

[Benson]

At times the Abell fails as a result of the 1/2 inch shaft getting slightly bent, this binds up the drive which sticks and does not retract from ring gear.

1. Many times you can remove drive from starter shaft.

2. Check run out with dial indicator.

3. Put starter or shaft (depending on where it is bent) in vise and straighten shaft with brass hammer or "dead blow" hammer.

4. The 1/2 inch shaft starter that has the updated Bendix can be bent also ... causing a problem.