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Old 01-18-2019, 11:55 AM   #21
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:26 PM   #22
George Miller
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

It could be a bearing was to tight.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:57 PM   #23
Fred K-OR
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

I would think, like mentioned above, taking it back to the builder if possible would be the best option
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Old 01-18-2019, 01:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Being it was running I suppose in neutral, that should eliminate the trans and rear. But a lose bolt jamming the flywheel could lock it. I am sure you tried the screwdriver deal on the starter ring trying to turn it both directions. The run a few times then the lock up is curious, wish I was there to help you. Please post the findings and good luck with getting it running again.
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

As the stuck engine issue is described, it kept getting worse till the engine locked up. Something was not getting lubrication or something was too tight to start with. It has to be piston or crankshaft related. This is one of those things that just is very difficult to deal with without getting to the heart of why no lube was getting to where it was supposed to be. It is my hope, getting this engine broken down will get to a economical solution, and I would bring this car back to the engine guy who built up the engine and have him deal with it.
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

isnt this the 2nd engine this has happened to?


??????????????
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
Was this the first start after rebuild or first start after sitting for a long time? If so , you should have pulled the distributor and poured a quart or so of oil in the opening to lube the main bearings. If not, the mains will run dry until the oil pump primes itself, starts pumping oil and fills the tappet chamber enough for that thick, cold oil to start running (by gravity only) down the tubes that feed the mains. It's possible that the mains ran dry long enough to seize.
Or, maybe the dipper tray had a pinhole or two in it and a rod or two ran dry and seized before any oil got there.
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Old 01-18-2019, 03:26 PM   #28
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
If it was the rings you should have seen marks on the cylinder walls.. Most likely a main bearing was to tight.
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:10 PM   #29
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

George, I don't know if it makes a difference, but this engine has insert bearings.
Ronn, No this is the same one, just a continuing saga.
I would like to take it back , but it's been 5 or 6 years since I had him do the work and I don't know how hard ($) he would hit me. and I paid enough money to him already. It was north of 5 grand when I had it done then. Moral of the story, You don't get your money's worth when you pay a lot for supposed quality! You get screwed even harder!
Terry




Quote:
Originally Posted by George Miller View Post
If it was the rings you should have seen marks on the cylinder walls.. Most likely a main bearing was to tight.
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:37 PM   #30
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Terry, how can you blame the rebuilder when you don't even know what the trouble is?
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:51 PM   #31
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

...

Last edited by Pete; 01-19-2019 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Hmmm... did the builder forget to install the oil pump.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:32 PM   #33
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

With the conversion to inserts, separate thrust bearings are needed. This is modern engine design practice.

These thrust bearings are in the form of 2 half circles that are not rigidly attached, but need to have an anti-rotation feature.

My guess for the cause of your locked engine is that you have a thrust bearing problem where the thrust bearing has climbed out of its anti-rotation feature, and as a result, your crankshaft rear main bearing thrust is bound up.

Many machine shops that do the conversion for inserts use a round head screw that is screwed into the cylinder block and a corresponding hole in the thrust bearing half to prevent thrust bearing rotation. A much better choice would be to use a fillister head or socket head screw with a slightly larger hole in the thrust bearing half.
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:36 AM   #34
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

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Who should he blame, his dentist?
He doesn't know what or why, it's too early to lay blame. Maybe the installation or startup procedures were faulty
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:18 AM   #35
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Post #29: The engine has inserts. If the engine has aluminum insert bearings, lack of oil at the rear main bearing will lock the engine up as you described. I rebuild engines and after locking up a higher output engine I was building for myself, on a break-in stand a number of years back, I ran some tests on the insert bearings and the clearances needed.

From my experience with stock gravity oiling, to be trouble and leak free, the rear main clearance needs to be between .0018" - .0022". My methods of measuring, assembly and choice of lubricants likely make/made a difference during the tests.

I used the same engine that locked up for the tests using the same assembly lube, methods of measurement and thrust clearances. I only changed the insert bearing clearance to the main journals. I then ran the engine with a heavy dyno load on the fresh bearings. With too little rear main clearance the aluminum bearing material would weld itself to the journal. Upon teardown, the insert could be removed with a brass punch and the remaining aluminum stuck to the journal could be removed with an acid brushing. the journal was not destroyed.

Terry, It will be interesting to see what you find when you open it up. Please keep us posted.

Last edited by Dave in MN; 01-19-2019 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:20 AM   #36
George Miller
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
George, I don't know if it makes a difference, but this engine has insert bearings.
Ronn, No this is the same one, just a continuing saga.
I would like to take it back , but it's been 5 or 6 years since I had him do the work and I don't know how hard ($) he would hit me. and I paid enough money to him already. It was north of 5 grand when I had it done then. Moral of the story, You don't get your money's worth when you pay a lot for supposed quality! You get screwed even harder!
Terry
The rear main insert needs to be reworked so the oil can get to the back of the bearing. or you have to leave more clearance. if not the insert will lock up and spin. Any of this is just a guess at this point. With out being there it is hard to say.
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Old 01-19-2019, 06:20 PM   #37
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
NO HEAT, Terry !

Being you had it running, the only way the pistons are stuck, is they don't have enough clearance, and if that is the case, WOW !

So at this point, The motor ran, then slowed down, and stopped, and now stuck. Sounds like smeared bearings!

Herm.
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Old 01-19-2019, 11:04 PM   #38
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

I like the 'heating of the cylinders'... what did you do?take a torch to the side of the block?amazing..
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Old 01-20-2019, 07:16 AM   #39
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Had one jam up when the ring gear slipped out of place in one spot. Wedged against the housing and I could only turn engine backwards a half turn or so.
Believe that the well aged ring gear was over powered by the torque of my 6vt starter running on 12vt.
Just another "rabbit trail" to consider. Chap
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:00 AM   #40
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Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

5 or 6 years since rebuild; insert bearings; had been sitting before starting last summer.

Oil should flow due to summer. (It was not 40 degrees out)
How many total miles since rebuild? Most would assume you drove it around after installing the fresh engine, did you?
How long had it been sitting; since the previous summer, 6 months, or a few weeks?
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