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Old 01-15-2019, 06:30 PM   #1
Werner
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Default Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello,


who knows the force for turn on the rear shaft drum nuts?


It means the torque craft with torque wrench.


Thanks in advance!
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Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:25 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

The axle shaft to hub nut is 100-125#. Tighten to about 100# and then tighten until cotter can be installed. If you're talking about the wheel fasteners/lug nuts, they are 55#.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

I'm not understanding too well. By "Torque Craft" do you mean Kraft, Starke ? Kraft and Starke mean power, strength I think. I think you are asking how much Torque on the rear axle shaft nut? The specifications call for 100 Lbs (English) Metric? I don't know. It's one Foot, about a 30 centimeters radius long wrench, with about 45 kilos turning force. I hope this helps you! Gluck Auf!
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Hello,


who knows the force for turn on the rear shaft drum nuts?


It means the torque craft with torque wrench.


Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Lug nuts are 50-55 foot pounds.
Rear axle shaft nut is 100 foot pounds.
Source is Brattons catalog.
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Rear axle shaft nut torque:

Drehmoment der Hinterachsschaftmutter:
100-125 foot-pounds = 135-170 N-m
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Old 01-16-2019, 05:56 AM   #6
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Here is my tool for resisting the torque (dual purpose brake adjusting gauge):

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Old 01-16-2019, 06:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Good morning,


many thanks at all for helping. Also the nice discription "30 cm mit 45 kg". ;-)


"Hau Ruck"!
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Old 01-16-2019, 12:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

I torque the nut and do not put the cotter pin in until after I have driven the car around the block, re-tighten and then install the pin. This insures that the axle and hub are seated-in properly.
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Old 01-16-2019, 03:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

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Originally Posted by Bruce of MN View Post
Here is my tool for resisting the torque (dual purpose brake adjusting gauge):

After seeing this. I’m am going to make one. Great idea. Enjoy.
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Old 01-16-2019, 04:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello,

I have now torqued the shaft nut. But on one side I can hear and feel a little bit noise, if I turn the drum click-cklick vorward/retard. I think, it is light tolerance between shaftbar (new) and drum.

Before I put one spicer (Snyders) at the konus.

May be possible, that I must take two spicers? Is that right?
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Honda CB 450 K 1, 1968
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Old 01-16-2019, 05:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Werner, I admire your courage! I don't have the courage to try to answer you in my terrible German, So we will first have to translate a few words.
Vorward--Forward , For ignition the word is advance
Shaftbar - Axle ?
Spicer- Spacer or what we call a Shim
Konus - ?????
I believe you can put two spacers/shims between these parts. This is not something I'm very familiar with so someone else may say no you shouldn't.
Terry

Bitte! Ich Lerne Deutsch!


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Hello,

I have now torqued the shaft nut. But on one side I can hear and feel a little bit noise, if I turn the drum click-cklick vorward/retard. I think, it is light tolerance between shaftbar (new) and drum.

Before I put one spicer (Snyders) at the konus.

May be possible, that I must take two spicers? Is that right?
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Old 01-16-2019, 06:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello Terry,

thank you for the nice words!

If I turn the brake drum (or wheel) a little bit left/right, it knocks, because there is too much tolerance/not allowed clearance between the parts.


"Shaftbar" means the bar (Snyders: ) "Rear axle key 4243" between axle shaft and drum's hub.

"Spicer" means (Snyders: ) "Rear Axle Shim".

"Konus" means the axle shaft where gets smaler in front direction.
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Old 01-16-2019, 07:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

I think maybe the brake drum is rubbing on a brake shoe. Not enough clearance. You could put a rear axle shim between the drum and axle and see if that helps. You can also see if there are any shiny spots on the inside of the drum to see just where it is rubbing.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Was over your way a couple years ago and was talking to a guy that had 5 Model A 's He was around Verden ..He worked in a Mercedes resto shop...Heading back this year .
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Werner, check to see if the pin in the parking brake linkage is in correctly, the cotter pin should be on the back side. If not the end of the pin will click,click on the back side of the wheel studs.
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Werner, we have several words for the sounds of contact between parts. First of all, is it a metallic (metal to metal) or is it metal to the brake shoe material?
Scuffing - the parts just "kissing" (Kusse) each other? If it's only a scuffing between the drum and the shoe, it will go away in time.
Scraping- Usually a metal to metal sound that is more serious and must be corrected.
Knocking - Parts falling into place with such impact that you can hear the parts hitting each other. Such as loose engine bearings.

OK ,Shaftbar is an axle key. I would think that it would be Schloss oder Geschlosse.

Spicer/spacer It's "spacer" when we have a large gap to fill and "shim" when the gap or movement is 3 mm or less.

Konus - I should have seen this! But did not! This is the English word "Cone". We use the word "Tapered" (Big at one end, smaller at the other end) Yes, The axles are tapered.

So we have a better understanding of what each side is talking about now. It makes things easier. Too bad our American educational system doesn't emphasize other languages. Mein Grossvader war auf Deutschland im jahr 1875. Und Ich wollen zu lerne Deutsch, aber Nicht!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Hello Terry,

thank you for the nice words!

If I turn the brake drum (or wheel) a little bit left/right, it knocks, because there is too much tolerance/not allowed clearance between the parts.


"Shaftbar" means the bar (Snyders: ) "Rear axle key 4243" between axle shaft and drum's hub.

"Spicer" means (Snyders: ) "Rear Axle Shim".

"Konus" means the axle shaft where gets smaler in front direction.
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Old 01-17-2019, 12:27 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

If one uses a .005" axle shim it will move the hub out on the axle a lot more than .005".
Anyone know how much? Or how to calculate it?
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Old 01-17-2019, 01:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

I wouldn't use axle shims (spacers) unless absolutely necessary, they can cause problems after awhile. You probably don't need them, put the car together and drive it for a few kilos, the brakes will probably wear-in. ( wear the high spots down) I spent 14 months in Nurnberg, the people were great!
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Old 01-17-2019, 02:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Hello,

I have now torqued the shaft nut. But on one side I can hear and feel a little bit noise, if I turn the drum click-cklick vorward/retard. I think, it is light tolerance between shaftbar (new) and drum.

Before I put one spicer (Snyders) at the konus.

May be possible, that I must take two spicers? Is that right?
See red above.

My German is about as good as my Vietnamese or Hmong ... maybe Werner is referring to the "play" or "slop" in spider gears to Axle gear with one wheel on the ground?

Maybe someone can translate?

Maybe one axle gear is worn more than the other side so there is "slop" one side only?

Is there actual movement between hub and axle when it clicks?

If nut is tightened to 110 lbs then there should not be movement.

If turning drum, without wheel mounted, and it clicks ... Are studs swaged to hub/drum?
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Old 01-17-2019, 05:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello A Model user.


There are two mistakes. 'Whirnot' wrote to check the pin of the parking brake. That was my mistake on the left side. The pin hole was outside and the cutter pin sleeves on the backsides of the drum bolts. That's fixed. Many thanks!



But the main problem is the loose drum after torquen the axle nut. There remains install clearance between tapered axle shaft - axle key - drum hub. It means a little, little rotation moovement turning right/left. Hard metallic noise.


Playing the drum a little bit right/left, the driveshaft knocks.


Therefore I took 1 peece shim into the drum hub. The problem got better, but not enough. Therefore I ask, it's o. k. if I take a second shim on the tapered shaft? Or arise this other problems?


I hope, this is understand?


Thanks especialy to Terry for helpfull words! Vielen Dank aus Aachen!
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Old 01-17-2019, 05:41 PM   #21
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Complement:


Quote:
Maybe one axle gear is worn more than the other side so there is "slop" one side only?
That may be perhaps my third problem. If I turn one wheel on lifted rear axle in one way and then retard the turnings, at the first moment I can feel a short cartylage/yank.


Quote:
Is there actual movement between hub and axle when it clicks?
Yes, a small little bit.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Once the nut is torqued there should be no looseness between the hub and axle. Is it possible the nut gets tight before the hub is all the way onto the axle? Maybe a heavy washer needs to be used between the nut and the hub?
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello Jim,

the way of the drum is enough on the axle shaft. I put the fiber gasket too between nut and washer. I try to put in a second shim on the shaft. The key is new.

Today I found an other problem. While I wantet to renew the outer grease seal (Simmering) I saw some big corrosion on the rolls of the bearing and much deep wholes in the hub. -


15 miles behind Nürnberg I was on the shool for 10 years.
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File Type: jpg P1080913.jpg (77.8 KB, 44 views)
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:41 PM   #24
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Those parts in the pictures are bad! The bearings anyway. Look at the tapered hole and see if it is beaten, or worn out. If it is the drum will have to be replaced.

Englische Lesson! English used to use "Ge" in front of a word like German does (Ich habe GEarbeit, Ich habe GEspielt,) . It was done away with by Chaucer a long time ago. Today, we use ED at the end of a word (I have workeED, I have playED. Since English in a Germanic language, this is one of the little changes that occurred over the years.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Hello Jim,

the way of the drum is enough on the axle shaft. I put the fiber gasket too between nut and washer. I try to put in a second shim on the shaft. The key is new.

Today I found an other problem. While I wantet to renew the outer grease seal (Simmering) I saw some big corrosion on the rolls of the bearing and much deep wholes in the hub. -


15 miles behind Nürnberg I was on the shool for 10 years.
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Old 01-18-2019, 05:50 PM   #25
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello Terry,

I ask myself: What's the first; my without problems running car or my perfect english/american language?
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Sie macht mir lachs!



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Hello Terry,

I ask myself: What's the first; my without problems running car or my perfect english/american language?
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:28 PM   #27
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Werner, That bearing, and the hub it rides in, should be replaced if you are going to drive the car any distance. Check the area on the end of the axle housing too. Repair "sleeves" are made for the axle housing ends, I don't know about for the hub. If you are going to trailer the car to events, don't worry about it.
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Old 01-19-2019, 02:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hey Jim,

if the roadster is ready, I think I drive probably 3000 - 4000 miles every year.
Has anybody experience with this repair set for much thousand miles?: https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_m...epair-kit.html -


Hi Terry: "Sie macht mir lachs!">>>"Sie bringen mich zum Lachen!"

I reed you have a C 172. The picture showes my Citroen with a C 140. Both was built at 1947. The airplane's wings had been still of wood.
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:41 AM   #29
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Werner, I don't have the Cessna 172 any longer. I lost it in 1998 when a student and instructor that were leasing it out from me. While there were no injuries, the plane was wrecked. Only 400 hours on the engine. At first, I was going to replace it. but then The Kennedy boy was killed. Then the owner of the airport Steven Snyder was killed when his F86 flamed out at about 500 ft. You may know of Steve, He was fascinated with early Jets and was the person who was building the five reproduction ME 262s. He had many aviation Patents A great loss! One of the planes was going to Lufthansa. And one other death made me reconsider.
The 140 in the picture looks nice. Is that your's? I only flew a taildragger once, A Citabria. It was an high wing stunt plane with an 0-320 lycoming. My plane had an 0-320 H2ad. This plane did not have a yoke, it was a stick like the early planes. A real fun part of my life!
Terry

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Old 01-20-2019, 12:30 PM   #30
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
Once the nut is torqued there should be no looseness between the hub and axle. Is it possible the nut gets tight before the hub is all the way onto the axle? Maybe a heavy washer needs to be used between the nut and the hub?
A few years ago, I had a Model A that we had to add a washer to the drivers side rear axel to be able to use cotter pin with nut. If you need to add washer, make sure it’s steel.

Pulled drum, replaced key, tighten axel nut to 100 foot pounds. Key hole was to far out to hold nut in place. Adding washer solved problem. Drum turned properly without binding. Enjoy.
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Old 01-20-2019, 12:38 PM   #31
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I haven't tried that kit from Mac's but it looks like it should work just fine. You should also check the outer end of the axle housings for wear, it is very common.
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Old 01-20-2019, 03:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Terry, I can understand you very well. I was involved in the Ramstein accident in 1988. Since then, I'm claustrophobic inside.

Our ME 266 from Everett does not belong to Lufthansa, but to the Messerschmitt foundation. I saw her on a NATO flight with the Avacs (B 707).

The 140 belongs to a friend. He also has a C 172 rocket. Flying is very expensive in Germany, 1 gallon avgas costs the equivalent of 11 dollars. Oldtimers are supposedly "loud" and therefore may fly only limited.

I fly only large model airplanes. The biggest one is a Spacewalker with 7 cylinder rotation engine. I wrote some books aubout this.
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Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Honda CB 450 K 1, 1968
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Old 01-20-2019, 03:55 PM   #33
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello Jim & VHN, much thanks you to everyone for your help.

The hub has now become firm with shim and thick slice.

I made a compromise. I coated the hub and the rollers with hot lubricating varnish paint and mounted them with a high-pressure grease. I think that works 1000 mils. If I hear a positive recommendation for MACs repair kit, then I install this in the summer. Currently we have frost with -7 ° C.

Just I'm waiting on of 4 Stipe's shock adsorbers.
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:15 PM   #34
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Werner, In addition to my 3 Model A Fords, I also have a 96 SAAB 9000 CSE. I use a 2013 Transit van, A great little truck! And a 1986 Case 580E backhoe. Despite the fact that I was a Tool and Diemaker and can run any of the Non CNC machines in a Machine shop. And worked for a large U.S. research company, I cannot figure a computer out. I can perform only the simplest operations . Signing on, e-mail, etc. Posting pictures is somewhat beyond me. Especially old photographs, of which I have many. Older cars, boats, my airplane. My mining adventures. I can't get beyond the initial scan. What do I do with them after that? What do I do then, send them where? How do I get them out when I want to? This computer doesn't help me one bit.(Apple) Directions? What are they? So I live in the age of computers and can't use them effectively. Might as well be stranded on a desert island.
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Old 01-21-2019, 11:35 AM   #35
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Mac computers are supposedly easy to use, but I've never used one myself.

Try: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/explore/new-to-mac

Maybe the book: MACS FOR DUMMIES
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Old 01-25-2019, 03:26 PM   #36
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello,

my impatience did not keep me waiting. So I have the repair parts already in my hand. It is looking good, the surfaces have fine microinches. It is not easy to mount, because the outer ring must with 10 tons be pressed in the drum. I will report.
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Citroen 11 CV, 1947
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Old 02-01-2019, 02:29 PM   #37
Werner
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello.

The repair of the outer bearing ring works very well. Both were easy to press in; left 5 to, right only 1 to. Loctite to it!

It's exactly to see that the makeshift roller bearing has smaller rollers. This is not a problem with the load capacity if use a modern synthetic high-pressure grease (no graphite, no MoS2!).

Do not throw away the old rolling bearing in the garbage. It makes a good help to press in the race and the simmering.
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File Type: jpg P1090105.jpg (73.8 KB, 17 views)
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Old 02-02-2019, 09:50 AM   #38
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Werner, I have used that repair kit, and it works very well. What does the bottom of the axle housing look like? The surface the inside of the new bearing turns on.
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Old 02-02-2019, 10:30 AM   #39
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello Russ,

do you mean the orange marked area? That is looking astonish good because the other parts was very bad!

Please look also picture on # 23.
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Old 02-02-2019, 11:53 AM   #40
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Quote:
What does the bottom of the axle housing look like? The surface the inside of the new bearing turns on.
I may be wrong, but I think that picture is of the top, not the bottom as Russ/40 asked for.
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:35 PM   #41
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

That was checked. The face downside is fine smooth.


Thanks!
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Old 02-04-2019, 04:07 PM   #42
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

What is the piece of leather for on the axle?


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Old 02-04-2019, 04:31 PM   #43
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello Bob,

I asked myself that several times. I did not find any literature / pictures about it. On both sides was between the drive shaft and the hub end 1 disc leather, 1 wafer-thin disc steel, 1 leather disc.

I renewed the thin leather discs.

I think that's because of the rotating contact surface between the hub and the axle housing?
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:03 AM   #44
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Maybe the inner axle seal is not good or missing?
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Old 02-05-2019, 05:01 PM   #45
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Default Re: Rear axle shaft nut, how to turn on

Hello Katy,

I suspect that this could be a shield from the dirt to the lubrication hole? It was missing also below the lubricating nipple.

The wheel bearings do not need to be greased again when modern lifetime lubricating grease has been used.

The thin steel thrust washer shines like a mirror. Thus, the hub has pressed against the stub axle during the rotation. I'll put it together again, it can not hurt.
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