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Old 05-09-2013, 05:34 PM   #1
msmaron
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Default Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....UPDATE & REPAIR!!!

Any help is appreciated. Have a B Cover on my Model A Engine and just in stalled a newly restored B Distributor.

Set Point gap at .20, found BTDC with timing pin in B Hole. set cam timing with a light to get it perfect. Have a original pop out switch modified with the quick connect wire to a armored cable to B distributor, new points, new condenser. New distributor body and cap, extended copper straps from the spark plug to the distrib for good solid connection.

Getting great spark at points, getting spark from coil wire to head nut making the gap, fuel fine, elec fine and full 6 volts, all accessories working fine also.
CANNOT get it to start at all. Turns over fine but wont catch at all. Fuel flow is fine just will NOT Catch and start..

ANY Help would be appreciated.
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Last edited by msmaron; 05-11-2013 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Rotor?? Is the dist turning?? Even if the body is new do you have continuity thru it??
What if we bypass the pop out by jumping across the junction box?? I'm trying to be helpful and I know you've got good experience but these are the things that popped into my head. Good luck and keep us posted, please.
Paul in CT
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Hmmmm rotor, well never considered that as it was the same rotor this AM that i used on the A Distrib..but i can try it..why would you suggest bypassing the junctin box???
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Yes paul the rotor is fine...spinning and spark from the plugs also
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

By jumping at the junction box do you not bypass the pop out or is that only with a replacement cable?
Now you say you even have spark at the plugs and it still won't fire?? No pops, nothing?
If it wasn't for the pop out Id ask if the key was on? Are A&B rotors the same?
Paul

There are 2 threads open, same title and both being answered to.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

yes and a & bo rotars are the same, and yes i get pops and it wants to catch but wont..

the pop out is only the switch part...the cable has been removed.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

If it pops but won't start, the timing is set wrong. it may be one of two causes. If you have the correct B timing cover, you should be able to set the timing with the timing pin. You say that you used a timing light to get the timing perfect, it must not be. Try setting the timing with the pin and forget the timing light. Another possibility is that you have a service replacement model A timing cover instead of an actual B cover. Both the service replacement A cover and the B cover have the raised oval boss where the pin installs. The real B cover has the threaded hole for the pin at the top of the raised boss. If you accidently used the A service replacement cover the timing will probably be 19 degrees off.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

As noted above by Purdy Swoft, make sure you have a B cover. Easiest way to check: the timing pin drilling on the B cover is closer to the perimeter bolt hole above it, and on the A cover it is closer to the hole below the drilling.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

After the B engines, were introduced, rather than make two different covers for an A replacement, both covers had a raised oval boss. The model A service replacement cover had the hole for the timing pin drilled at the lower end of the raised boss. The actual B cover had the hole for the timing pin drilled at the upper end of the raised oval boss.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursus View Post
As noted above by Purdy Swoft, make sure you have a B cover. Easiest way to check: the timing pin drilling on the B cover is closer to the perimeter bolt hole above it, and on the A cover it is closer to the hole below the drilling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
After the B engines, were introduced, rather than make two different covers for an A replacement, both covers had a raised oval boss. The model A service replacement cover had the hole for the timing pin drilled at the lower end of the raised boss. The actual B cover had the hole for the timing pin drilled at the upper end of the raised oval boss.
YES I have the cover with the raised boss and the hold drill and tapped for the B at the raised part of the boss and also for the A under it.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

How is the compression?
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Franklin View Post
How is the compression?
Yes all is fine. Car was running perfect with the A dist
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Old 05-10-2013, 02:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

When the timing pin drops into the detent in the cam gear, is the rotor pointing towards the right headlamp?

It should be, and the points should just be ready to break open with the rotor turning CCW.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:04 AM   #14
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Yes that is correct Tom
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:13 AM   #15
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Sounds like fuel problems. You need three things at the correct time, fire- check compression- check fuel-?. Check the carb.
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:12 AM   #16
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Mark,
Now grasping at straws..... You said this is your new Model B dist, so do you have another B condenser to swap out just in case. You said you are getting spark but a different condenser could give you a better spark.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rogers View Post
Sounds like fuel problems. You need three things at the correct time, fire- check compression- check fuel-?. Check the carb.
The carb is fine. Car ran perfect on the am. Compression is fine also.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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Mark,
Now grasping at straws..... You said this is your new Model B dist, so do you have another B condenser to swap out just in case. You said you are getting spark but a different condenser could give you a better spark.
Did just that put in a new condenser
Thanks
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Forget about the timing pin for now.
Put the A dizzy back in and get it running. cut the motor off and turn it over to where #1 fires. Lift the A dizzy out and set the B dizzy in...now set rotor to where #1 fires it should start.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:04 AM   #20
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmaron View Post
Any help is appreciated. Have a B Cover on my Model A Engine and just in stalled a newly restored B Distributor.

Set Point gap at .20, found BTDC with timing pin in B Hole. set cam timing with a light to get it perfect. Have a original pop out switch modified with the quick connect wire to a armored cable to B distributor, new points, new condenser. New distributor body and cap, extended copper straps from the spark plug to the distrib for good solid connection.

Getting great spark at points, getting spark from coil wire to head nut making the gap, fuel fine, elec fine and full 6 volts, all accessories working fine also.
CANNOT get it to start at all. Turns over fine but wont catch at all. Fuel flow is fine just will NOT Catch and start..

ANY Help would be appreciated.
If you have great spark recheck the timing. Do it the old fashioned way by checking to see if the rotor aligns with the first cylinder point at tdc.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:14 AM   #21
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Your wire from the coil should be solid wire not the carbon centered wire used to day it may spark but not good enough. Gord. B by the Bay
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord. B by the bay View Post
Your wire from the coil should be solid wire not the carbon centered wire used to day it may spark but not good enough. Gord. B by the Bay
The spark from the coil wires sparks across the gap when laid next to a head nut.. that is fine


I am convinced it is a timing issue at this point
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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Yes all is fine. Car was running perfect with the A dist
Then "WHY" did you not leave "PERFECT" alone ??..
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Because Fred...that is the fun of the model A :-)
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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Because Fred...that is the fun of the model A :-)
YUP, Sounds like "FUN"...
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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YUP, Sounds like "FUN"...

Well have to admit..frustrating. But HEY look at what ya learn when there are problems to trouble shoot!
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:46 PM   #27
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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Well have to admit..frustrating. But HEY look at what ya learn when there are problems to trouble shoot!
There is only one problem, & you made it...Put the "A" dizzy back in & have "FUN"..
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
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There is only one problem, & you made it...Put the "A" dizzy back in & have "FUN"..
Fred your Killin me!!!!
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Mark, Try taking the dissy cap off.Leave the rotor on. Put the pin in the timing cover and engage the pin. Take the high tension wire from the coil and put the end 1/4inch from a head bolt. Turn on the ignition and rock the rotor back and forth and see if there is a good blue spark from the coil. If not then retard the spark on the side of the dissy all the way. Then try rocking the rotor back and forth. Should be a good hot snapping spark. JB
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:57 PM   #30
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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Mark, Try taking the dissy cap off.Leave the rotor on. Put the pin in the timing cover and engage the pin. Take the high tension wire from the coil and put the end 1/4inch from a head bolt. Turn on the ignition and rock the rotor back and forth and see if there is a good blue spark from the coil. If not then retard the spark on the side of the dissy all the way. Then try rocking the rotor back and forth. Should be a good hot snapping spark. JB

When i put in the pin do you want me to find BTDC before i start all??? and then start the rock of the rotor?
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:31 PM   #31
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

You put the pin in the detent and the engine will be at 19degrees befor tdc. Then time you points to brake at that point. That is the starting point. Then start the rocking. See what you get.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

just dont dive bomb
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:35 PM   #33
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

OK UPDATE: someone at the house is working on it and got it runnung.. They BYPASSED the cable from the pop out to the side of distributor and got it running and running GOOD!!

Seems there is a problem with the pop out and the little cable wire that goes to the dizzy??
I have a modified pop-out with the wire coming out of it to a quick connect to the cable wire that connects to the side of the dizzy..
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Mark, With a B dissy you start the engine 19degrees BTDC. This is why you do not want to hand crank a B. This may seem strange to a model A er who always starts his engine at 0 degrees or at TDC. JB
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:41 PM   #35
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Hey, dont do that.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:49 PM   #36
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

I am with Wick . Put the A dist . back in . Leave the B timing coner on and for get about the finding TDC with the pin . Just watch the piston come up to TDC and time the A dist . If you do this and the car starts then you have narrowed the problem down to the B dist . Might want to try a different B dist . I have an A dist and A timing cover on my B engine. If you time it like an A it is to far advanced and rattles big time . I now time it by ear and keep messing with it until it is on the verge of rattling. Comparing this to doing by the book ( Les,ford ,Marco ) I end up way retarded compared to the book . I talked to the fellow that rebuilt the engine ( before I bought the car ) and mention to him the problems I had timing the car . He said he had the same problem . So it is a mystery. You may also have a mystery. I know how frustrated you are . Been there . Keep messing with sooner or later you will figure it out .
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:16 PM   #37
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmaron View Post
OK UPDATE: someone at the house is working on it and got it runnung.. They BYPASSED the cable from the pop out to the side of distributor and got it running and running GOOD!!

Seems there is a problem with the pop out and the little cable wire that goes to the dizzy??
I have a modified pop-out with the wire coming out of it to a quick connect to the cable wire that connects to the side of the dizzy..
MY MY. How did that problem get there ?? Why do you keep making things "BETTER" ?? & making more problems ??
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Quote:
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I know how frustrated you are . Been there . Keep messing with sooner or later you will figure it out .
Seems there is a problem with the pop out and the little cable wire that goes to the dizzy??
I have a modified pop-out with the wire coming out of it to a quick connect to the cable wire that connects to the side of the dizzy..
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:36 PM   #39
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Get a modern look alike switch and some period correct wire and call it a day.
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:44 PM   #40
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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Originally Posted by jkeesey View Post
Get a modern look alike switch and some period correct wire and call it a day.

BINGO...seems that was the problem and will let you know for sure

thank you!
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Mark: See post #5.................
Paul in CT
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:54 PM   #42
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

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Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo View Post
By jumping at the junction box do you not bypass the pop out or is that only with a replacement cable?
Now you say you even have spark at the plugs and it still won't fire?? No pops, nothing?
If it wasn't for the pop out Id ask if the key was on? Are A&B rotors the same?
Paul

There are 2 threads open, same title and both being answered to.

BINGO...did it and fired up....now to check more
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:53 PM   #43
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Even if it is timed at TDC it should run it will run retarded.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:56 PM   #44
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

Hey Mark how about a picture of your setup. I will be doing this later this summer. I would really like to see how you hooked up the ignition cable.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:25 AM   #45
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Default Re: Please help with Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....problems!!

A big thank you goes out to all the guys at the FB..problem has been solved. Upon further study I had noticed that at the last few checks there was NO spark to the points. As Paul in post said.. I jumped from the hot side of the coil to the ignition cable screw on the dizzy. Immediately started, removed the instrument panel and found that the quick connect had split and dropped off the ignition cable, quick change and connect and it started immediately. Re-set timing with pin to achieve BTDC and it is running PERFECT. Timing is perfect, in fact the car runs better that ever. I am very very pleased with the setup and the centrifugal advance built in. It is quiet and really give it high marks so far. A BIG THANK YOU to everyone, your help was very appreciated and useful... This is why this place is the best!!!
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:38 AM   #46
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Default Re: Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....UPDATE & REPAIR!!!

Great news ! ! ! !
Paul in CT Maybe update the thread on the EV8 forum??
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:11 PM   #47
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Default Re: Timing on Model A w/B Distrib....UPDATE & REPAIR!!!

Yes i did it already
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