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Old 01-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #21
Jim/TX/GA
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by 406CID View Post
I was concerned about this early in the design too. It was pointed out to me that the 21/21 - 32/50 bulbs emit like an isotropic emitter (light in all directions). It is brighter up and down than side to side, but light is emitted in all directions from the original bulbs. This means on your incandescents and original reflectors, light goes down to the bottom of the parabolic reflector and reflects up somewhat. When you add the high beam, you simply add more light as the two filaments emit from the same location (not two very different locations like a modern day halogen). Most of the bulbs investigated even had a common point on one side, so the filaments were colocated.
I'm sorry, but the above is not true for an original Model A Two-Light headlight reflector and original bulb. You need to do some more research on original bulbs and reflectors, not aftermarket replacement junk that was produced in the '50s and '60s.

Yes, the light is emitted from each filament in all directions. It approximates a point source. That is how a parabolic reflector works. No, a Model A High beam does not have both filaments lit to "add more light from the same location". It is one or the other filament (High or Low), not both.

On an original headlight assembly, when focussed, the High beam filament is exactly centered at the focal point of the parabolic reflector. The placement of the bulb socket is NOT exactly on the center axis; it is a bit high of center. But the High beam filament is also off center (low) inside the bulb by the same amount. So this places the High beam filament exactly on the center line axis of the reflector. You use the focus adjusting screw to move the filament along this axis until you exactly hit the focal point.

Then you adjust the headlight bucket itself to aim this beam straight out from the car (on a wall 25 feet from the headlights). When the High beam is aimed in this manner, the Low beam is automatically correct, by design.

That's because the Low beam filament, inside the original Model A 20 cp/20 cp bulb, is a separate filament that is higher than the High beam filament inside the bulb. When it lights, because it is now high to the center line and focal point of the reflector, the beam is slightly dipped down at the road (not straight out into the other driver's eyes).

This is all well documented in original drawings that you can get from the Benson Ford archives.

Note, the above description does not apply to the 1928 and early 1929 headlights, with the fluted lenses. They only had 20 cp Driving lights (similar to High beams) and 3 cp parking lights in the headlight buckets. They did not have a bright beam that was aimed down at the road. They did not have the lens of the later Model A; their headlight lenses looked exactly like the fluted Model T lenses.

It sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board because this design is based on faulty assumptions and measurements. Otherwise oncoming drivers will be blinded by the light put out.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:23 AM   #22
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by 406CID View Post
I was concerned about this early in the design too. It was pointed out to me that the 21/21 - 32/50 bulbs emit like an isotropic emitter (light in all directions). It is brighter up and down than side to side, but light is emitted in all directions from the original bulbs. This means on your incandescents and original reflectors, light goes down to the bottom of the parabolic reflector and reflects up somewhat. When you add the high beam, you simply add more light as the two filaments emit from the same location (not two very different locations like a modern day halogen). Most of the bulbs investigated even had a common point on one side, so the filaments were colocated.

The LED headlight was painstakingly designed to emulate what is available for us to use as a bulb now (except brighter and whiter). So, like the bulb, all 16 emitters are active at the same time, in the same place as the filaments. When you switch from low to high, it goes from reduced output to maximum output to emulate the incandescent bulb.

If these LEDs work as described then it sounds to me that there is no shift in the beam to light up further down the road like "real high beams".


Sounds like all that happens is that the "lower beam" just gets brighter which might work for a car that never goes faster than 40 MPH.

The video shows that this is what happens with the LED bulbs installed there is no shift of the beam, it just gets brighter.


But then what is the point or need for high beams?
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by Jim/TX/GA View Post
That's because the Low beam filament, inside the original Model A 20 cp/20 cp bulb, is a separate filament that is higher than the High beam filament inside the bulb. When it lights, because it is now high to the center line and focal point of the reflector, the beam is slightly dipped down at the road (not straight out into the other driver's eyes).
Jim, Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

And thanks for pointing out that the low bean filament is the upper one in the bulb and the high beam is the lower one. 'Some' people on the Ford Barn think it is the other way and there was quite a discussion about it a while back.

Oh, and nice hat...
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:23 PM   #24
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Default Re: LED Headlights

DOT might certify the light, but thatÂ’s as far as it goes. I know N C no longer tests lights for proper alignment, I find a lot of vehicles blind me with their DOT approved lights, but when I flash my lights I get even brighter lights. ItÂ’s up to owners to align their lights, there are procedures and guidance to do this.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Not my company, but I do work for Logo Lites.


The LED emitters were painstakingly designed to be in the exact same location as the two incandescent filament in the original bulb. Moving the LED bulb in and out has the exact same effect as they do on an incandescent since they emit from the same location.


I don't have the exact proper setup to do the Ford prescribed focusing, but will see what I can do to show the focused output this weekend.


Keep in mind, with a correctly focused factory reflector and an original 21/21 CP bulb, if you could take those bulbs up to a few thousand CP without changing anything else, your eye would see a slightly different pattern.


Also, the Logo Lites LED Headlight bulb puts out the same lumens as other DOT approved modern halogens.



-Kyle
If the company has test data on lighting pattern and how to properly adjust the focus of this LED, it would be good to share! If the company does not have this data, it should be developed. With a good silvered reflector, and proper focussing and assuring legal brightness is not exceeded and at about $30.00 a bulb, these LED's are hands down a good choice for night driving. Let us know!
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Folks keep asking about focus, so I got Squeaky Betsy out in the cold misty rain for a quick demo tonight. Her headlights are not aligned correctly, so please don't beat me over the head about that. Hopefully the short video demonstrates the fact that the LED bulbs are focusable.

https://youtu.be/3rIEO9QFRQE

-Kyle
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Old 01-13-2019, 11:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: LED Headlights

Thanks Jim for a very good explanation.


What is needed is a LED bulb is a true 2 "filament" bulb so you have a low beam that lights the road closer to the vehicle and a high beam that projects further down the road. This way, you will not blind the oncoming cars.


Just having bright light for "low" beam and brighter light for "HIGH" beam with the same focal point is not the answer. The low beam source must be higher in the reflector than the high beam light source for true "low" and "high" beam headlights.


Sealed beam headlamps have the low beam source above and to the left of the center on the parabola. This will shift the low beam down and off to the right which helps light the right hand edge of the road as the oncoming car passes and also helps to help keep your headlights from blinding oncoming drivers.

LED bulbs are a very good idea but they must be properly designed.


Chris W.

Last edited by CWPASADENA; 01-13-2019 at 11:47 PM. Reason: CLARIFICATION
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:50 AM   #28
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by vstol View Post
DOT might certify the light, but thatÂ’s as far as it goes. I know N C no longer tests lights for proper alignment, I find a lot of vehicles blind me with their DOT approved lights, but when I flash my lights I get even brighter lights. ItÂ’s up to owners to align their lights, there are procedures and guidance to do this.
Maryland no longer test headlight aim/patterns either as part of an inspection. Too many variables now with all of the modern led's.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:11 AM   #29
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Default Re: LED Headlights

406CID, I can assume you own a '62 406 ?
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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Originally Posted by 406CID View Post
Folks keep asking about focus, so I got Squeaky Betsy out in the cold misty rain for a quick demo tonight. Her headlights are not aligned correctly, so please don't beat me over the head about that. Hopefully the short video demonstrates the fact that the LED bulbs are focusable.

https://youtu.be/3rIEO9QFRQE

-Kyle
Thanks for the video, Kyle, it's informative.

I see two minor problems with this bulb, perhaps one major:

1. The light source(s) are spread out on both sides of the centered tongue, which means there's no way to focus into a tight spot of light like could be done with a filament bulb with the lens removed. However, a reasonable focus should be possible by going for the smallest, brightest spot on the far wall (with lens installed). I suspect this would be more difficult than with standard bulbs.

2. Your vid shows the beam lowering as you adjust the focus screw in your Twolite lamps, which is caused by the 1/16" offset of the socket sleeve in the reflectors. Because both sides of the tongue have to be lit for high beam, the overall light source is 1/16" above where it should be. This is not terrible, so long as you readjust the beam height after focusing.

3. Despite the claims, I don't believe these bulbs are compatible with vehicles manufactured before March 1929. FSB p.573 lists the authorized bulbs available at the time, and clearly states that fact. Fig.738, p.362 shows an H-type lamp with a later reflector installed, and illustrates the reason why - the socket contacts are vertical.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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<snip>

3. Despite the claims, I don't believe these bulbs are compatible with vehicles manufactured before March 1929. FSB p.573 lists the authorized bulbs available at the time, and clearly states that fact. Fig.738, p.362 shows an H-type lamp with a later reflector installed, and illustrates the reason why - the socket contacts are vertical.
I agree. I alluded to this change in my description, but it is better to be direct about it: These LED bulbs are not going to work properly in original Model A headlights that are from all of 1928 to ~March, 1929, the ones with the fluted lenses and the slightly smaller diameter connector on the bottom of the headlight bucket.

The connector is smaller because they only ran 2 wires, not 3, up into the headlights in those early models (driving light and parking light). Later they made the driving lights be Low and High (and kept Parking, if not on the cowls) -- 3 wires.

The switch to Low and High driving lights was made by Ford in response to several states enforcing a law that required the headlights to be dipped down at oncoming traffic, to prevent dazzle of the other driver by the bright lights.

Back in the time, automobile headlights were regularly checked in these states at night at temporary checkpoints that were setup to catch people that were a nuisance/dangerous to other drivers. It was that bad. As others have noted, most (if not all) states have now dropped the inspection of headlight aim because Detroit has done a better job of getting them right on modern cars.

I am concerned that these LEDs will produce unacceptable dazzle to oncoming drivers when installed in a Model A. As the driver of the car, it won't bother you, but it will be a nuisance to the others (and could cause an accident -- if the other driver is blinded by you, they may accidentally drive into you or someone else).

.
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Old 01-17-2019, 12:11 PM   #32
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Default Re: LED Headlights

This is a little different, but I thought that it might be useful to somebody. My daughter's daily-driver is a '74 Beetle and it had lousy headlights. I stumbled across these and absolutely love them. They are pricey, but considering how well they work I think they were worth it.

I plan on getting another set for my vintage, late-70s motorcycles that also use sealed beam.

For those that have sealed beam conversion on their Model A this might be a viable option. They look reasonably like older sealed beams.

You can check them out at:
https://vintagecarleds.com/

Ken
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Old 01-17-2019, 01:30 PM   #33
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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$7.45 for shipping two small bulbs is a little rich.
Hint: You want to sell more...offer free shipping
considering Halogens are 55+ shipping this is a STEEL!!! and as led will last 10x longer
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:38 AM   #34
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Default Re: LED Headlights

I know from driving that the amount of light 20 feet in front of the car isn't useful, that I prefer "spotlight" over "flood light", I looked at the video several times, to me it looks like a lot of light everywhere for short distances, but total darkness in the distance

one of the first things I noticed when I put in the direct fit halogen bulbs ( this term is considered to mean replacement aftermarket bulbs, but original Mazda ribbed bulbs are filled with halogen gases too) is that the road and signs were lit up for a long distance, one night I took a count of poles with reflectors, counted 8 poles, then a stop sign on high beam, the next day I measured the distance, over 3000 feet, on high beam the light started hitting the road over 2 car lengths ahead

I have been collecting HID light pieces from wreck cars ,the light from that bulb is focus able with original reflector , but hi-low would have to be by moving the bulb (factory use many times have a solenoid control shutter to make low beam, and some also have motors to aim the beam ---a good focused hid beam should near melt the tailights out of the car ahead but not blind the driver



there is no led conversion that can work properly with original reflector, new car led are off to the side, the reflector is a "rams horn" shape, perhaps a segmented one with each segment having it's own led. ---

if the lights are bright to look at them standing off to the side they have scatter from bad focus ---a good lighting system won't look bright except in the beam

I have been asking the proud LED headlight owners to show a picture of their bulbs focus without lens, still waiting

I have been trying to figure a test method that everyone can use to compare that is reproduce able and not needing special equipment, and I will try to make a video of my car to compare to the LED video going down the road (when the snowsalt is washed away )
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:24 AM   #35
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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I have been trying to figure a test method that everyone can use to compare that is reproduce able and not needing special equipment, and I will try to make a video of my car to compare to the LED video going down the road (when the snowsalt is washed away )
Great idea. We need a consistent way to compare headlights. I do still think I'm going to order a set of these LEDs and run my own tests and compare them to both the 25W Halogen replacements and the 50-32 bulb then report back. Of course now I have to wait till April... To everyone in the northeast, stay safe this weekend.
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Old 01-27-2019, 06:31 AM   #36
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Default Re: LED Headlights

$7.45 for shipping is too much?! Sometime I don't understand people!
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Old 01-27-2019, 09:19 AM   #37
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Default Re: LED Headlights

FWIW, I have LEDs in my 35 V8 Coupe which have separate high/low elements and focus like originals. I also have their LEDs in my 76 VW Camper.

http://www.dynamoregulatorconversion...bulbs-shop.php
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: LED Headlights

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FWIW, I have LEDs in my 35 V8 Coupe which have separate high/low elements and focus like originals. I also have their LEDs in my 76 VW Camper.

http://www.dynamoregulatorconversion...bulbs-shop.php
So with the lens off and on the light projected looks like the pictures in post 15, so far all the LED owners have declined to post pictures of lens off focus
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:47 PM   #39
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$7.45 for shipping is too much?! Sometime I don't understand people!
highway robbery
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Old 01-27-2019, 09:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: LED Headlights

There several interesting points to remember about LED lights versus incandescent lamps.
1. LED's are more efficient - more lumens per watt
2. LED's produce a more uniform wavelength of light compared to incandenscent lamps
3. The light emitted by LED's is very directional compared to incandescent lamps which is more scattered or random.
4. The intensity profile (brightness pattern) of the LED is more uniform than incandescent
Therefore, if the LED replacement light being discussed has been properly designed to function within the Model A parabolic reflector it should produce a more directional, higher brightness, and uniform intensity pattern. Maybe the lamp in question has not been completely fine tuned relative to the Model A reflector and just needs some additional tweaking. There are many more advantages to using LED's as a replacement than disadvantages. The idea of using less wattage to produce more light compared to incandescents is a good thing. Our 6volt generators will work more efficiently and our lights will not dim at idle. This debate reminds me of the longstanding points versus electronic ignition discussions. Sometimes change can be a good thing.
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