Tod winfield/ weiand head

[modelAtony]

Tod, would you consider having Bill Stipe do some dyno testing on a combustion chamber design PRIOR to making a new head. How do they know the winfield is the better of the two. and is it the best that can be built. THE POWERS TO BE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. HAVE FUN modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA all the best to your new engine.

[Purdy Swoft]

Does Bill have a dyno test site??? If so I would like to add it to my favorites list.

[modelAtony]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Does Bill have a dyno test site??? If so I would like to add it to my favorites list.

Purdy, I just got home and saw you asked about stipe info here tis. SPECIALTY MOTOR CAMS specialtymotorcams.com . modelAtony

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Does Bill have a dyno test site??? If so I would like to add it to my favorites list.

Hey Purdy,
Now only does Bill build engines, but he has his own dyno to test them on...how cool is that !
Just wish that I could have had him build a B for me ! That man is a perfectionist, IMO ! Based on everything that I've purchased from him..like works of art ! Too bad, for us, that he is retiring, but I got my last order in in time !

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by modelAtony

Purdy, I just got home and saw you asked about stipe info here tis. SPECIALTY MOTOR CAMS specialtymotorcams.com . modelAtony

Thanks Tony. I'll put it on my favorites list

[Purdy Swoft]

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Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Purdy,
Now only does Bill build engines, but he has his own dyno to test them on...how cool is that !
Just wish that I could have had him build a B for me ! That man is a perfectionist, IMO ! Based on everything that I've purchased from him..like works of art ! Too bad, for us, that he is retiring, but I got my last order in in time !

Hey Rick, I know that Bill is one of the best. I run cams that he ground in a couple of my engines. I didn't know that he showed dyno test results on his site . Hopefully his machine shop will remain in business after his retirement. If not, it will be a bad loss to the model A performance community !!!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Hey Rick, I know that Bill is one of the best. I run cams that he ground in a couple of my engines. I didn't know that he showed dyno test results on his site . Hopefully his machine shop will remain in business after his retirement. If not, it will be a bad loss to the model A performance community !!!

Amen brother ! A better professional and genuinely nice member of our hobby will not pass this way again soon, IMO ! Better get your order in now, as he explained that he is winding down and filling orders already taken !
Not sure what is to become of his shop. Seem to remember something of him having a son ? Maybe follow in Bills footsteps,eh !

[colin1928]

Originally Posted by modelAtony

Tod, would you consider having Bill Stipe do some dyno testing on a combustion chamber design PRIOR to making a new head. How do they know the winfield is the better of the two. and is it the best that can be built. THE POWERS TO BE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. HAVE FUN modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA all the best to your new engine.

Why these heads have been tested many times over the last 80+ years and the crows foot Winfield always wins
I have owner many different performance heads and tried many of them on the same engine with only the head changed
Winfield Red original iron was always made the best power
other heads I have tried include Winfield Yellow, Super Winfield ( dispite the name not as good as the orginals) Weiand, Cyclone, Thomas, Evans, Simonds
This my opinion but almost every racer or engine builder I have spoken with who has tried different heads agrees the crows foot iron Winfield No1

[Tod]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Why these heads have been tested many times over the last 80+ years and the crows foot Winfield always wins
I have owner many different performance heads and tried many of them on the same engine with only the head changed
Winfield Red original iron was always made the best power
other heads I have tried include Winfield Yellow, Super Winfield ( dispite the name not as good as the orginals) Weiand, Cyclone, Thomas, Evans, Simonds
This my opinion but almost every racer or engine builder I have spoken with who has tried different heads agrees the crows foot iron Winfield No1

Colin,

I sent you a PM.

Tod

[Purdy Swoft]

My take on dyno testing the different heads would be to give an idea of what the actual horsepower increase would be. We've seen tests on other heads. Sure, the Winfield heads are good and have stated compression ratios and a great history in the past .

[nickair]

Yes, I'm with Purdy. The dyno testing would be nice to see hp as well as the torque numbers. I am looking forward to the new head/s.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Well, this also begs the question; can the crows food designed be improved upon by twisting or plug location.

Bill has the capability to make just a flat plate on his CNC where he doesn't need to build/cast a complete head with water jackets just to test with. He also has the ability to grind a special camshaft that can compliment the chamber design of a new head. Personally I also think this would be money well spent to do some dyno work, even if it requires adding $50.00 to the price of each head and amortize it over 150-200 units. The only downside to this new head is it may drop the prices on some vintage / era aftermarket heads. I say go for it!

[Purdy Swoft]

Depending on price, I agree. I've seen a lot of good parts that were priced so high that the common man would say, just forget it. If the price is reasonably, more parts will sell and still make a profit, maybe more in the long run

[Tod]

Brent and Purdy, pricing is less an object than coming up with chamber designs and time to play with them. I can make various chamber designs with my casting system that will keep pricing down. Keep in mind that I am basically the one-stop-shop, having the capacity to model up designs, make patterns, make castings (iron or aluminum) and machine those castings. It would take much too long to explain what I can do and just how I would do it but I am used to doing things others do not do or cannot do because my 37 + years in the industry has brought me into contact with quite a bit of data that I can utilize to get where I need to be. But time is always the enemy.

The twisted chamber interests me.

Tod

[flyin-t]

Back in the late 90's Allan Wylie dyno'd 6 heads (on a Sun chassis dyno), the new Aluminum Winfield, Anderson, Weiand, Price, Brumfield and the a Model B head. Winfield out performed all of them developing 41% more hp, 18, over the the "B" head. The others made 30% more, give or take.

This was published in the January '98 secrets of speed.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by flyin-t

Back in the late 90's Allan Wylie dyno'd 6 heads (on a Sun chassis dyno), the new Aluminum Winfield, Anderson, Weiand, Price, Brumfield and the a Model B head. Winfield out performed all of them developing 41% more hp, 18, over the the "B" head. The others made 30% more, give or take.

This was published in the January '98 secrets of speed.

Hey flyin-t,
Very interesting ! Do you know if pictures were published, showing the comb chambers shapes....that were tested ? if so, can you picture them here. For instance, was the 'new alum Winfield' the crows foot or the other one pictured here lately ?

[Dodge]

The new aluminum Winfield is not a crows foot. Some have ground the crows feet into
the head though and had a improvement. It must be an air flow thing.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Dodge

The new aluminum Winfield is not a crows foot. Some have ground the crows feet into
the head though and had a improvement. It must be an air flow thing.

I can make both as cast.

Tod

[flyin-t]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey flyin-t,
Very interesting ! Do you know if pictures were published, showing the comb chambers shapes....that were tested ? if so, can you picture them here. For instance, was the 'new alum Winfield' the crows foot or the other one pictured here lately ?

I'll scan the article this weekend and post it here.

[Tod]

The new Winfield pattern is underway. While machining model A and T heads today I finished some pattern CNC cutting and was able to install my head pattern fixturing along side of the next pattern I need to cut. I decided to fit the new Winfield pattern into the time frame of the pattern I have to make. It will probably be finished in a couple of weeks.

Tod

[just plain bill]

Originally Posted by Dodge

The new aluminum Winfield is not a crows foot. Some have ground the crows feet into
the head though and had a improvement. It must be an air flow thing.

Don't know where that story started from but I have had 2 of the new Al. Winfield heads, both ordered as and both had the Crowsfoot chamber and came that way as cast.

[Purdy Swoft]

This may not pertain to the variation in some of the aluminum Winfield repro combustion chambers but... It seems that back in the mid ninties when Specialty Ford parts in Rosemead CA offered the heads, they were available in both 6 and 7 to 1 ratios. Couldn't this be the reason for the variation is combustion chamber shape ? It seems that grinding away material from an already formed chamber would lower the ratio.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

This may not pertain to the variation in some of the aluminum Winfield repro combustion chambers but... It seems that back in the mid ninties when Specialty Ford parts in Rosemead CA offered the heads, they were available in both 6 and 7 to 1 ratios. Couldn't this be the reason for the variation is combustion chamber shape ? It seems that grinding away material from an already formed chamber would lower the ratio.

That would be a reasonable conclusion. Crow's foot = 6:1 the other = 7:1? For that to happen I think the 6:1 would need to be about 15 percent more volume than the 7:1. Someone can check my off-the-top-of-my-head math and let me know if that is true. When I cut both chambers I will CC them both.

Tod

[just plain bill]

Originally Posted by Tod

That would be a reasonable conclusion. Crow's foot = 6:1 the other = 7:1? For that to happen I think the 6:1 would need to be about 15 percent more volume than the 7:1. Someone can check my off-the-top-of-my-head math and let me know if that is true. When I cut both chambers I will CC them both.

Tod

I posted that I had owned 2 of the Rosemead/ Antique Auto Parts Al. heads and both were as cast Crowsfoot heads. The reasonI owned 2 because the first one was recalled before I could use it. I believe they advertised a 6 to 1 a 7 to 1 and a Crowsfoot. I called and spoke to Gene Scott weekly regarding when the Crowsfoot would be available. Which, I believe was to be 7.5 to 1 Memory fails me there. Possibly only a 7 to 1. They are very good heads and make a lot of power. I will repost our results at the 2010 Antique Nationals with one of these heads It is a model A block.

[Tod]

Today I ran the first roughing pass on the top of the head pattern. Need to get this cut asap. More pattern work requests came in today. Chop, chop, giddy up!

My foundry was also asking about making more blocks. I'm kinda stuck in the shop right now so getting to the foundry is difficult. So when we do make the next ones I'll just go ahead and make 4 castings at once. Maybe in a couple or 3 weeks, depending on how busy the core shop is.


Tod

[bettlesr]

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I bought an aluminum Winfield crows foot head a few years back from Red's Headers and was told it was a 7:1 head. The "Non" crows foot head was also sent as a 7:1 head. There was a problem with the hole for the distributor being oversize and the location of the lock bolt hole being too high on the head and holding the distributor off the surface. The manufaturer suggested to put shim stock around the distributor and also put a thin "shim stock" washer under the distributor so the screw would fit into the groove of the distributor casting. As the pistons were quite above the top of the block, I use a stock head gasket, a solid copper spacer and the another stock head gasket. This also require me to make a slightly longer drive shaft for the distributor. For the record, I am using the crows foot head.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by bettlesr

... As the pistons were quite above the top of the block, I use a stock head gasket, a solid copper spacer and the another stock head gasket. ...

Kinda defeats the purpose of having a 7:1 head, doesn't it?

[bettlesr]

CarlG
Not really as the pistons take up most of the extra space. The piston to head clearance is back to what it should be.

[Purdy Swoft]

The pistons originally protruded just a bit over .032 thirty two thousants. I think that the head gasket compresses to about .060 when torqued down to the block . Two gaskets would be a hundred and twenty thousants compressed, then add the thickness of the shim gasket. Thats a lot of gasket. You only need thirty to thirty five thousants clearsnce between piston and head when the head is torqued down on the gasket . I'm surprised that you didn't need longer studs.

[bettlesr]

Purdy:
I am using aftermarket racing studs that are slightly longer than the originals. I believe they are the length of the one that is supposed to have the ignition wire clamp on it. The copper gasket is .031 thick. I don't remember exactly but I think the pistons were up about .117 above the block. They were all right with the stock head but not with the 7:1 head. These heads are not under cut like a stock head.

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by bettlesr

I bought an aluminum Winfield crows foot head a few years back from Red's Headers and was told it was a 7:1 head. The "Non" crows foot head was also sent as a 7:1 head. There was a problem with the hole for the distributor being oversize and the location of the lock bolt hole being too high on the head and holding the distributor off the surface. The manufaturer suggested to put shim stock around the distributor and also put a thin "shim stock" washer under the distributor so the screw would fit into the groove of the distributor casting. As the pistons were quite above the top of the block, I use a stock head gasket, a solid copper spacer and the another stock head gasket. This also require me to make a slightly longer drive shaft for the distributor. For the record, I am using the crows foot head.

I have these same two heads. The crow's foot one was labelled as a 7:1 and it was 120cc.The other one was labelled 8.5:1 and checked 86 cc. Hope this helps.

[bettlesr]

Rex A Lot
Thanks
Dick

[just plain bill]

Originally Posted by Rex_A_Lott

I have these same two heads. The crow's foot one was labelled as a 7:1 and it was 120cc.The other one was labelled 8.5:1 and checked 86 cc. Hope this helps.

If you call Antique Auto in Rosemead and give them the numbers stamped into the head they can tell you what the ratio was. I called and my head is/was 7 to 1 and it is a "Crowsfoot"

[Tod]

The rough cutting of the top is complete. It would have been done yesterday but the power company blew out the power for a few blocks around me in the afternoon. So, I got a couple of hours off on a fairly nice afternoon. Be starting on the finish pass soon.

Tod

[bettlesr]

Just plain bill:
I called Antique Auto and gave them my S/N. They said it is a 7:1 crows foot head and around 120cc.
Dick

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by bettlesr

I bought an aluminum Winfield crows foot head a few years back from Red's Headers and was told it was a 7:1 head. The "Non" crows foot head was also sent as a 7:1 head. There was a problem with the hole for the distributor being oversize and the location of the lock bolt hole being too high on the head and holding the distributor off the surface. The manufaturer suggested to put shim stock around the distributor and also put a thin "shim stock" washer under the distributor so the screw would fit into the groove of the distributor casting. As the pistons were quite above the top of the block, I use a stock head gasket, a solid copper spacer and the another stock head gasket. This also require me to make a slightly longer drive shaft for the distributor. For the record, I am using the crows foot head.

Hey bettlesr,
I've re-read your input here and concerning problem with hole in head and dist. size difference. BTW, I have the head on right of you pics (8.5:1 cr).
So today, I went and checked a recently got Bubba alum dist, with the Winfield head hole ...for fitment. What thousand clearance is acceptable between these two, if you know ?
Anyway, my new dist fits the Winfield head hole and has (guess) .005 clearance....good/bad/ugly ,eh
Here's my main concern. The dist HAS A RADIUS where it meets the Winfield head and this radii had the dist sitting up off of the face of the Winfield maybe .050 (will measure if anyone thinks that this is wrong/problem). WHY this radius at all, I have no idea..what am I missing here ? Should the Winfield have a relief cut in same area to match dist or should the dist radii be cut off ?

Now, I checked the original old cast iron heads and it is FLAT in this area, and no radius at bottom of my old dists. Haven't contacted Bubba to discuss yet. Want to see what you say first.

[Tod]

Finish pass is cutting on the top today.

Tod

[Tod]

The top of the pattern is all cut and I test fit it in the mold box setup. "A"-OK! I can paint it and make a mold to fit the core plug into and then use as the first sample for the casting.

Tod

[waxhead]

Good news, fast progress as always

[Tod]

Originally Posted by waxhead

Good news, fast progress as always

Nothing ever moves quick enough for me. The time from idea to production is like eternity to an impatient man. In the last week, while finishing the top, I got my foundry and core quotes and have my final cost worked out for iron or aluminum. I also drew up the "B" pump end and a finned style. I need to go over the poll again and see what all I will have to do.

First will be the Winfield style with the square cornered chamber, then the crow's foot.

Tod

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Tod

Nothing ever moves quick enough for me. The time from idea to production is like eternity to an impatient man. In the last week, while finishing the top, I got my foundry and core quotes and have my final cost worked out for iron or aluminum. I also drew up the "B" pump end and a finned style. I need to go over the poll again and see what all I will have to do.

First will be the Winfield style with the square cornered chamber, then the crow's foot.

Tod

Hey Tod,
Some times it's good to have an 'impatient' one (leader) in your corner,eh ! In this case, for us, definitely ..a yes !!
I'm guilty of the 'sin' of impatience myself....she says ! Maybe so, as when told ...be patient... I often see in my minds' eye , two starving vultures up above a dying road 'kill' creature. 1 saying to the other...patience my arce, I'm gonna kill me something !!
Hey young man, go kill us some square cornered IRON Winfields ..QUICK !

[Tod]

The top of the "Winfield" iron version is finished and in the mold box and the deck/combustion chamber side is being roughed out right now. Should be done before lunchtime and then I will start the finish pass cutting. Might have the deck half of the mold finished by tomorrow evening or Thursday. Sure hope it is ready to mold before the holiday weekend. I need a few days off!

Tod

[Tod]

The deck side of the pattern is finished! Combustion chambers are the square cornered version. I will cut the crow's foot style after sampling this casting.

Tod

[Juggler]

Great stuff

Any pics?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Juggler

Great stuff

Any pics?

I can send you a couple of the unpainted pattern. Email me.

Tod

[Juggler]

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Originally Posted by Tod

I can send you a couple of the unpainted pattern. Email me.

Tod

Pm'd you the address

Many thanks!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Juggler

Great stuff

Any pics?

Hey Juggler,
YES...wow !!!

[Juggler]

Originally Posted by Tod

The deck side of the pattern is finished! Combustion chambers are the square cornered version. I will cut the crow's foot style after sampling this casting.

Tod

Hey Tod

Any updates?

Many thanks

Juggs

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Juggler

Hey Tod

Any updates?

Many thanks

Juggs

Actually, yes. Since the block is pretty much out of my hands for a couple of days, while molds are made and cores are coated, I finished the top side of the pattern today (pattern paint), so it is ready to mold up. Then I can test fit the core plug in an actual mold. Then the deck side mold box needs finished and I can have cores made to sample some castings.

Tod

[Pete]

For what it is worth, this combustion chamber design works very good on an A/B.

The picture is of a flathead V8 but the A/B head looked exactly the same only scaled up to a 4 inch bore.

The B version was 10.1 to 1 and the engine made 168 hp. on av gas.

I started with a Dan Price head.

[Dick So. Cal.]

This is an exciting thread. I was wondering if anyone had considered using 3D printing to prototype his efforts?
I took a tour of Edelbrock's engineering facilities this last year and they use the new printing techniques to help engineer their new products. They flow test the manifolds and heads, make any corrections to the resin models before ever making a metal part. Of course they can't dyno a plastic part, but they fine tune the pattern before ever making a 'real' part. This idea might work on something like ideal spark plug location, manifold shape, or crows foot design.
Just a thought. . . .

Dick Wyckoff

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Pete

For what it is worth, this combustion chamber design works very good on an A/B.

The picture is of a flathead V8 but the A/B head looked exactly the same only scaled up to a 4 inch bore.

The B version was 10.1 to 1 and the engine made 168 hp. on av gas.

I started with a Dan Price head.

Hey Pete,
That YOUR design ? Wow, looks real interesting ! Looks like plug is situated toward intake, more so than to exhaust. Anyway, everything that I've read/seen says that that's the proper/best location !

Geeze, even with my CVS eyes on, that pic it tiny. Can you make it bigger to study from this end ? Hm, thot that Dan P quit making flatheads, maybe an old copy ?

Seems like something that Tod would like to check out,eh ?

BTW..At 10.1:1...how are you dealing with sealing combustion on the B (fire rings/ O-rings ...what method ??

[Pete]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Pete,
That YOUR design ? Wow, looks real interesting ! Looks like plug is situated toward intake, more so than to exhaust. Anyway, everything that I've read/seen says that that's the proper/best location !

Geeze, even with my CVS eyes on, that pic it tiny. Can you make it bigger to study from this end ? Hm, thot that Dan P quit making flatheads, maybe an old copy ?

Seems like something that Tod would like to check out,eh ?

BTW..At 10.1:1...how are you dealing with sealing combustion on the B (fire rings/ O-rings ...what method ??

1- No, it is a basic Edelbrock copy.(flatheadV8) Dan Price told me to do it that way.
2- It is a poor quality pic. Blowing it up makes it worse.
3-The last one I did was an NOS original.
4- Tod would have to do a market analysis. I doubt there would be much
of a demand. Most people don't want to go that fast.
5- No O-rings. Copper gasket with aluminum paint.

No gasket problems. You have to be absolutely sure there is at least .010 clearance from the fire ring seat to the chamber all around
BOTH on the head and block. Many head gasket problems are caused by
not checking this. Doweling the head to the block (as many modern engines) makes it a lot easier to check.

[hardtimes]

Hey Pete,
Thanks, learned a couple good tips here !

[waxhead]

Any updates Tod ??

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by waxhead

Any updates Tod ??

Hey Tod,
On 8/26/14 you were 'cutting' the Winfield head. What happened to that head, i.e.- did it machine up well ...what ? Pics ?
Are you still keeping the 'list' of us who have expressed Winfield IRON need ?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Tod,
On 8/26/14 you were 'cutting' the Winfield head. What happened to that head, i.e.- did it machine up well ...what ? Pics ?
Are you still keeping the 'list' of us who have expressed Winfield IRON need ?

The pattern is finished and ready to mold up in sand. I have not machined the core plug yet because I got a pattern to cut and the machine has been busy cutting that pattern.

Tod

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Tod

The pattern is finished and ready to mold up in sand. I have not machined the core plug yet because I got a pattern to cut and the machine has been busy cutting that pattern.

Tod

Thanks ! Hope you don't wear those machines out...before getting to those iron winfields

[Tod]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Thanks ! Hope you don't wear those machines out...before getting to those iron winfields

Me too! But other options are always available. It is on its way to reality. Time is always my biggest problem.

Tod