Early Multiplate clutch un usual starter

[Brendan1959]

Hi
I have an early engine with a multiplate clutch I bent the ½ inch shaft so I got another starter with the larger shaft and put a modern bendiix on it, it would bind so I skimmed it in the lath. I am still not happy with it. I recently got another engine with a starter that has an un usual bendix. This bendix has no spring return and has a pin which travels along a slot to engage the starter to the ring gear. Has anyone had this type of system, is it worth a try?
Thanks
Brendan

[Fred]

It sounds like you have the very early ABEL drive..

[pooch]

I broke my 1/2 inch shaft clean off .

Repaired it easily.

Working fine.

If you want to fix your old one and can't bend yours back, maybe cut it off andput a new shaft in as I did.

note.. Mine broke because it had a headed bolt in the front end and it hit the flywheel, so check your bent one.

[Ron in Quincy]

Your description indicates it is the Abel Starter Drive, not one of Fords better ideas; in the Service Bulletins is a article about converting the starter to a Bendix Drive; the Bendix Drive used for conversion is called a DR Starter Drive. The shaft on the early starter must be modified to accept and properly work with the Bendix Drive.

If not concerned about using the square starter switch, just use the later starter and starter switch.

Ron

[Tom Wesenberg]

The later starter won't clear the multiplate flywheel. I'd just bend the original starter shaft straight. It's easy to do with a press, or even some rigging with C clamps.

If you have an original early Abell drive, why not use it and see if it doesn't work OK? They are quite rare and it would be a neat item to show others. I plan to use one on my 28 when I install the multiplate flywheel.



Here's an armature straightner I made some years ago. You don't really need a dial indicator. You can see the nut and washer in the center move up and down if the shaft is bent. Just tighten the center nut to pull the high side down.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Does your drive look like this?

[Brendan1959]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Does you drive look like this?

Similar but no spring that I can see, there is a small step or flat section at the top of the slot so it sort of latches.
Brendan

[Ron in Quincy]

Tom is correct, should have engaged brain before typing, the later starter bendix will not clear the multi disc flywheel. Sorry for the mis-infomation. The DR Starter Drive is difficult to find these days; I am running the DR Starter Drive on my very early (1927) A with the multi disc clutch.

Ron

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Brendan1959

Similar but no spring that I can see, there is a small step or flat section at the top of the slot so it sort of latches.
Brendan

If the Abell drive is installed on the armature, then you can't see the two springs.

The very light spring is needed to let the inertia let the drive spin up the helix until the pinion teeth engage the flywheel ring gear. At that point the light spring will be fully collapsed into the cupped retainer shown between the two springs. Once the light spring is fully collapsed the heavy spring takes over, and by this time the heavy drag of cranking the engine will allow the pinion to continue climing up the helix (and compressing the heavy spring) to the slight recess where it stays while cranking. So, you can see that every part in the picture is needed for this drive to function correctly.

This looks like a good drive to me, but I haven't used one yet. Ford had quite a recall on them and they are hard to find. Keep some oil on the parts for lube and to keep them from rusting. On the later drive you don't want anything more than a light oil on the helix, or it will hang up and not engage, especially in cold weather.

[Brendan1959]

Ok
I took a picture

[Tom Wesenberg]

OK, as long as you can feel a light spring pressure holding the pinion out of engagement, then your light spring, retainer and heavy spring are all in place inside the pinion. I would go ahead and use this starter.

Since I see the starter setting in a solvent tank I'd guess you cleaned it in there. Be sure to put some oil on the drive and starter end plate bushing.

BTW, the picture shows the drive half way up the helix. Does it actually have light spring pressure to keep it fully disengaged? If the light spring is missing then you can buy some thin piano wire at the hardware store and make your own spring, as I have pictured. It's exactly 3 turns and must fit inside the steel retainer ring recess when it's collapsed.

[Tom Wesenberg]

BTW, the Abell starters had shims that are used between the starter and flywheel cover to give the drive proper spacing from the pinion to the ring gear. This is described in the SERVICE BULLETINS.

[Pepsi Mechanic]

We have a half inch drive on our starter and the drive is the same drive used on a model T .. I got my parts for the T and they fit perfectly .. not sure if that will work in this case

[Farrell In Vancouver]

Originally Posted by Pepsi Mechanic

We have a half inch drive on our starter and the drive is the same drive used on a model T .. I got my parts for the T and they fit perfectly .. not sure if that will work in this case

Hey Pepsi Mechanic, did you retain the reciept? I'd like to know that part number. I have one workable bedix left and well, if the T unit works it might be a good alternative to the hand crank.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here's 2 more pictures of the original armature used with the Abell drive. The part of the armature that the pinion actually rides on is larger than 3/4", while the end of the shaft is 1/2". Being only 1/2" makes the keyway more likely to crack from the added torque pressure against the key, as compared to the later 5/8" shaft. I've seen some cracks starting at the keyway corners, and that's why it's so important to make sure the spark is fully retarded while cranking the engine. Ford said the "TROUBLESOME" Abell drive was replaced with the newer style, but I've never seen it spelled out exactly what the trouble was. Could it be the cracking in the shaft, or improper shimming, or something else? That's why I want to use one and see if it gives me any trouble.

In the first picture you can see where the pressure on the key is pushing the steel shaft up on the side that pushes against the key.

[mrtexas]

If I were you, I'd sell the able starter/drive on ebay as they are very rare. You could then get several of the later 1/2 inch drive starters and have money left over!

My multi-disc setup came with a 5/8 starter that stayed engaged as I drove down the road making a horrible racket. I don't believe the seller had actually driven the truck. I got the correct one from a forum member for $125 or so including an extra clutch setup and a flywheel if I wanted it. Many people are replacing the multi-disc with later clutches and I see them for sale often in the want ads. BTW, I replaced my multi-disc with a 39 transmission so I have the parts but am keeping the original parts with my early 28 in case I change my mind.

[Brendan1959]

Thanks Fellas,
After I washed the drive I can feel the light spring, As the shaft that comes out of the starter is 5/8 I imagine it will be less likely to bend. I am very close to getting the car registered, in Australia that can be quite difficult. I am trying to make sure the starter wont let me down while it is being roadworthy tested. This will require me to leave the car with a mechanic (not so keen on this) so they can inspect and road test, apparently they now have to photograph the brake shoes, drums and other items. You can see the engine the starter came out of and my car.
Regards
Brendan

[Pepsi Mechanic]

Originally Posted by Farrell In Vancouver

Hey Pepsi Mechanic, did you retain the reciept? I'd like to know that part number. I have one workable bedix left and well, if the T unit works it might be a good alternative to the hand crank.

Got my parts from Macs ... go to www.macsautoparts.com .. go to Model T and go to electrical .. they have a starter bendix parts that fit a half inch shaft ... these parts were an exact match to the parts on our early 28 AA ... starter itself is completly different but the bendix is the same
Harry / Pepsi Mechanic

[Farrell In Vancouver]

Originally Posted by Pepsi Mechanic

Got my parts from Macs ... go to www.macsautoparts.com .. go to Model T and go to electrical .. they have a starter bendix parts that fit a half inch shaft ... these parts were an exact match to the parts on our early 28 AA ... starter itself is completly different but the bendix is the same
Harry / Pepsi Mechanic

Thank Harry, I'll check it out!
Did you catch the picks of the Coke Hauler I posted on the AA site?

[Pepsi Mechanic]

Originally Posted by Farrell In Vancouver

Thank Harry, I'll check it out!
Did you catch the picks of the Coke Hauler I posted on the AA site?

not sure .. I will have to check .. p.s. I sent you an email with the same info .. by the time I got done typin I see you already reposted LOL .. I use one finger

[jr-41ford]

Brendan, you Model A Roadster looks very nice.

I've got an early Model A Roadster too, but not finished. Going to try to finish it by mid summer.

[Brendan1959]

Originally Posted by jr-41ford

Brendan, you Model A Roadster looks very nice.

I've got an early Model A Roadster too, but not finished. Going to try to finish it by mid summer.

Thanks mate
I think it is about the journey not the destination, I worry about what happens when it is finished and on the road. is the Hamb the dark side?
I pulled the drive to bits tonight the shaft has a chip at the key way, I found 1 spring only, i wonder if this is an early reproduction part.
Regards
Brendan

[Tom Wesenberg]

From your picture it looks like the original correct Abell drive and I've never seen a repro of that style. I have a different kind of repro drive for the 1/2" shaft like I've never seen or heard of before. I'll have to find it and post a picture.

Which spring do you have, heavy, or light? Do you have the collar that fits between the two springs?

[Brendan1959]

Tom
I found only 1 spring which was the heavy one.
Regards
Brendan

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Brendan1959

Tom
I found only 1 spring which was the heavy one.
Regards
Brendan

I can get you some dimensions if you want to make the collar and thin spring. The collar would be easy to make with a lathe.

[Brendan1959]

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Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I can get you some dimentions if you want to make the collar and thin spring. The collar would be easy to make with a lathe.

Tom
I should be able to make it from the pictures. Do I need the light spring?
Regards
Brendan

[Tom Wesenberg]

Yes, the light spring keeps the drive from moving forward with the engine running, and the collar must contain the compressed fine spring to protect it from damage when the heavy spring is compressed. So, you can see the dimensions are critical. I'll see if I can find my parts and get the measurements.

[Brendan1959]

Tom
If you can measure the length of the 1/2 inch shaft as well please, I think mine may have been welded at some stage.
Thanks
Brendan

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Brendan1959

Tom
If you can measure the length of the 1/2 inch shaft as well please, I think mine may have been welded at some stage.
Thanks
Brendan

Do you have a picture of the weld in question? So far I can't find my NOS Abell drive, but I'll keep looking.