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Old 07-25-2018, 03:43 AM   #41
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

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Originally Posted by holdover View Post
In response to the above about some one who genuinely works in fire and rescue. Yes I do understand the structure of a model A as opposed to a modern car, but do you actually think it is safer for your chest to strike the steering wheel with full force rather than be some what restrained by a seat belt that is mounted to the frame, and how about a face plant into the windshield, or being thrown out and maybe rolled over by your vehicle or another one. I firmly believe that the grand-kids are much safer belted in a Model A rear seat than not. Also seat belts appeared in the early 60s in all vehicles which did not have all the safety devices we have today, but immediately the fatality rate from accidents fell sharply, from those of cars not equipped, in my experience both in Metro NY and Rural VA. BTW I lost count many , many years ago how many people I put in a body bag that had been thrown out of their vehicle.

The deal here is none of us want to be in an accident while in a Model A, because there will most likely be injuries, maybe if it happens the seat belt will reduce the severity of those injuries, just a bit of insurance.

It would seem that we will never agree on this point, but that is OK, I wish you all the best.
I agree, I'm looking to fit belts in my coupe. A few years ago, in the 4 door we had, we were stationary, waiting to turn into our drive when hit head on at 30 mph. I was ok , holding onto the steering wheel but my partner ended up cracking the windshield. Ok but sore for a week! The other driver ended up putting a bulge in his screen (a modern car).
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:44 AM   #42
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

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Any one installed shoulder style seat belts in a model a coupe.? I have lap belts anchored to a 2x2 iron angle bolted to the frame on both sides, but I would like to upgrade if possible . Pictures would be great, thanks.
Google "Put 3 point seat belts in roadster ford barn". I think the setup should be the same with a coupe. When you Google the above, the next site you will see on line is one I posted showing how 3 point belts can be installed in a sedan for those who might be interested.

Congrats on going with 3 points. PM me if I ca help any further.

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Old 07-25-2018, 10:39 AM   #43
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

A couple of points to ponder. While it's certain that, in a head-on or even a rear ender, with no belt the passenger is destined to kiss the windshield, with a lap belt holding the lower half of that passenger in place while not restricting the forward motion of the the upper torso, it seems to me that that same passenger will now kiss the dash rail. simple physics would suggest that the force spread out over the entire face would be much less than concentrated on a 1" steel bar. However, the broken glass would have to be considered also. The other point is, if people are so concerned about safety (the lack of) in an accident while driving/riding in a Model A, is there no concern about having the gas tank virtually sitting on your lap?.

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Old 07-25-2018, 10:48 AM   #44
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Also in 50 years as fire and rescue, I have yet to cut a dead person out of a seat belt.
But have you come across a deceased person that was buckled up?. You may not have been the one to "cut a dead person out of a belt" (you may have unbuckled them rater than cut them or removing the body was never your duty) but to suggest that you have been in fire and rescue for 50 years and know of NO instance where a person wearing a seat belt died at the scene of an accident is suspect at best. I'm not involved with fire and rescue and I know of several instances where people died in an accident while buckled up. In fact, statistically, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of accident victims are buckled up. Not because being buckled is more dangerous, simply because I believe that the VAST
majority of people DO buckle up and yet many people are killed every day in vehicle accidents.
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Old 07-25-2018, 03:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

No1"But have you come across a deceased person that was buckled up?. You may not have been the one to "cut a dead person out of a belt" (you may have unbuckled them rater than cut them or removing the body was never your duty) but to suggest that you have been in fire and rescue for 50 years and know of NO instance where a person wearing a seat belt died at the scene of an accident is suspect at best." I'm not involved with fire and rescue and I know of several instances where people died in an accident while buckled up.#2 " In fact, statistically, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of accident victims are buckled up. Not because being buckled is more dangerous, simply because I believe that the VAST
majority of people DO buckle up and yet many people are killed every day in vehicle accidents."


In answer to # 1 In the maybe 200+ real serious accidents I have administered to (and thousands of not so serious), no I have never cut or unbuckled a dead person. I said cut because we all carry a belt cutter and when fast action needs to be done it is faster and easier than finding a release button located in the center of the vehicle or dealing with a jammed buckle, especially on a dark night. Some have died at the hospital but were delivered there alive. Not so with many who were not buckled in. This is especially tragic when it involves infants and children not in car seats or restrained. As to No 2, you would be surprised how many do not wear belts even though you are suppose to almost everywhere. We find this happens many times where alcohol is involved.
And you are correct about people buckled up also perish, I know of many instances where it has happened it is just in my tenure in both NY and VA.where I cut or unbuckled them, and yes it is part of my function to remove the "patients after they are stabilized, via backboard, cervical collar, KED, splints etc, I will be honest that when I arrived on many wrecks I said to myself that there is no way some one could have survived, but from my experience they did, so mine is an honest statement, thankfully. I might add that there have been accidents where a person died that wearing a seat belt would not have made a difference, but they weren't wearing one. I know of these in my response area because we discuss serious calls so that we can always try to do better doing the extraction. As to experience firefighter, vehicle extraction instructor, fire officer, former Paramedic. please be safe out there.

Last edited by holdover; 07-25-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:00 PM   #46
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

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In answer to # 1 In the maybe 200+ real serious accidents I have administered to (and thousands of not so serious), no I have never cut or unbuckled a dead person. I said cut because we all carry a belt cutter and when fast action needs to be done it is faster and easier than finding a release button located in the center of the vehicle or dealing with a jammed buckle, especially on a dark night. Some have died at the hospital but were delivered there alive. Not so with many who were not buckled in. This is especially tragic when it involves infants and children not in car seats or restrained. As to No 2, you would be surprised how many do not wear belts even though you are suppose to almost everywhere. We find this happens many times where alcohol is involved.
And you are correct about people buckled up also perish, I know of many instances where it has happened it is just in my tenure in both NY and VA.where I cut or unbuckled them, and yes it is part of my function to remove the "patients after they are stabilized, via backboard, cervical collar, KED, splints etc, I will be honest that when I arrived on many wrecks I said to myself that there is no way some one could have survived, but from my experience they did, so mine is an honest statement, thankfully. I might add that there have been accidents where a person died that wearing a seat belt would not have made a difference, but they weren't wearing one. I know of these in my response area because we discuss serious calls so that we can always try to do better doing the extraction. As to experience firefighter, vehicle extraction instructor, fire officer, former Paramedic. please be safe out there.
Thank you for that answer. I feared after posting that it may be taken in the wrong manner as being argumentative but that was not the intention. I have only come across two accidents in my life where i was first or second on the scene and the second one (the one that happened right in front of me) the driver was killed instantly and was wearing a seat belt. Not saying that the belt was in any way responsible for his death, it wasn't, just that the "first responders" would have had to cut or unbuckle him to get him out. The other accident, the passenger was NOT belted in and did receive more injury than she would have if she was belted IMO. She was sleeping in the back seat and the driver left the road, hit an approach and rolled the car.
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Old 07-27-2018, 03:51 AM   #47
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

This is more involved than you guys are laying down. I was in my 78 cj7 in New Orleans last year crossing an intersection when i was T-boned by a Off duty officer in her Chevy Malibu patrol car at 60mph. I never wear a seat belt actually i only even have them in to pass inspection and their lap belts with half back seats. MY jeep has no roll cage at all not even a sports bar (i have my reasons) and am under the real impression that if i flip and roll i am much better out of the vehicle and being a jeep that is slightly more likely (plus what about to explain below). Well me the guy in the jeep getting broadsided with no doors, no roof, folded down windshield, no air bags, no safety devices whatsoever with a fake hip, fake third of my pelvis, fake femur bone, and two broken vertebra from the past was totally fine i cut my knee, on the all metal dash and bruised my side from hitting the metal tuffy center conceal, i got out and went to the officer who was buckled in, air bags had goon off and unconscious and called 911. She had to be taken away from the scean by ambulance after being cut out of her seat buckle because it would not release.

Injury and death have more to do in a given accident with the sudden stop of inertia on the body than anything else, Organs slamming against ribs, brains slamming against the skull ect. In modern vehicles all of these safety items work together to limit the affects of inertia and transfer of energy, seat belts crumple zones ect... In older cars like my jeep or even the model A do not absorb energy, They transfer it directly though a frame, engine, body mounts made out of hard maple directly into the occupants. Thats why when i was hit the jeep moved quicker than my body. The slower speed of my body's travel relative to the speed of the jeeps lateral momentum from the crash, the movement of my body flexing, the friction of my body on the seat as opposed to the force of gravity, my cloths catching on the center counsel the soft upper of the passenger seat on my shoulder probably absorbed a solid 40-45% of the transferred energy from the accident when all numbers are crunched. If i had been buckled in i would have absorbed around 92% of transferred energy. (Its to long to explain the math). I would have been seriously injured or dead if buckled, and all of this principle is fully relevant to use in the model A with a solid frame, torq tube direct connect real axel to tranny and wood body mounts.

Some one above said its better to hit your head or face off the dash rail as its a smaller injury. The absolute fact of the matter is its much better to hit your face off the glass. Think about it! You head its the glass, it cracks, and spiders, your body continues forward it stretches from the safety plastic sheet in the middle slowing your travel of energy (inertia) in fact much slower than the speed of the car your currently relative too; not only that but the area in sq inches of your head is probably around 30-40 on the glass after it curvatures around your head. So... the force is divided by number of sq inches and the force per sq inch is greatly reduced. You may get glass embedded in you head and face, a sore neck, but if you hit your head off the steel dash at the speed of the car the force applied to the 1 or 2 sq inch area is much increased, your forehead takes ALL of the transfer of energy shattering your scull and because instead of a forward and upward momentum that you would regularly experience the seat belt is now holding your lower half to the seat, your neck and vertebra are not as aligned to take the impact causing your head to snap backwards breaking your neck with all of that force. Just because something seems safe or is safe in a certain use dose not mean its not the opposite in others. This is the exact reason lap belts were banned in the late 1970s - early 1980s for any seat that is facing a fixed object of height exceeding XY&Z. I dont care what car, truck ect.. you look at their will be no lap belts with forward facing seats facing any dashboard, divider windshield (limousine) or seat back made sense 1978 (i could be wrong on exact year but... I think jeep was the last to comply and that was 79 model year) and any lap belts that exist are aligned in a center seat facing a center conceal or lower object and the center conceal must be padded, or for a short time (mid 90s) rear facing with 24" of distance to back door. some time in I believe 77' the department of highway safety found lap belts caused deaths in 55% of cases that could have been prevented in not wearing one all together but did rule that the principle was sound if modified and recommended a three point seat-belt. That three point seat belt was only to be used however in conjunction with a 3/4 or more high backed seat or they would cause your back to break on the bounce back. At that point all low back seats like in our As and my jeep were banned. Then in the late 1990s early 2000s they went even further and mandated head supports because there were still an alarming number of broken necks being caused in low speed accidents with exceptionally high numbers in seniors (these low speed accidents that broke necks most likely never would have hurt more than the car and an ego... The short and long of it is seat belts are indeed dangerous to put in our model As no matter which way you slice it (perhaps besides for small children who could bounce out of a rumble seat with a good bump) The physics, math, and even the history of seat belts and studies actually done by the DOHS during the evolution of seat-belts actually supports my claim.

Please don't rig up safety belts just to have a better peace of mind!

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Old 07-27-2018, 06:06 AM   #48
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

I use seat belts and I have whitewall tires.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:39 AM   #49
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

OK, so did we decide it's better to attach to the body only, or through the body to the frame? I know shoulder belts are much better than lap only belts, but isn't a 4 point or 5 point better yet, and where do you draw the line on "better than"? For myself, I've decided I'm better off inside the car than outside, even though being "thrown clear" COULD happen. That's the main advantage I see to the lap belts I've installed, to the body only.


(Yes, I'm probably doomed to hell because I did not listen to the "shoulder belts" guys...)
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:20 PM   #50
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

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Some one above said its better to hit your head or face off the dash rail as its a smaller injury. The absolute fact of the matter is its much better to hit your face off the glass.
I believe you referring to my post. If so, I was suggesting exactly what you have posted, that you will suffer greater injury hitting the dash rather than the glass.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:13 PM   #51
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

[QUOTE=1928Pickuppain; ....... I never wear a seat belt actually i only even have them in to pass inspection and their lap belts with half back seats. MY jeep has no roll cage at all not even a sports bar (i have my reasons) and am under the real impression that if i flip and roll i am much better out of the vehicle and being a jeep that is slightly more likely (plus what about to explain below). Well me the guy in the jeep getting broadsided with no doors, no roof, folded down windshield, no air bags, no safety devices whatsoever with a fake hip, fake third of my pelvis, fake femur bone, and two broken vertebra from the past was totally fine i cut my knee, on the all metal dash and bruised my side from hitting the metal tuffy center conceal, i got out....[/QUOTE]

That is a lot of thought to rationalize a miracle. I would be interested to hear the results of an analysis of all the similar accidents in a similar car to see just how many walked away. I don't think that guy who walked on water could have walked away from your accident.
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:45 PM   #52
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I believe you referring to my post. If so, I was suggesting exactly what you have posted, that you will suffer greater injury hitting the dash rather than the glass.
I really suggest that you watch some slow motion film of a frontal impact. A driver or passenger in a Model A is going to suffer serious head injuries whatever their head makes contact with and make contact it will belt or no belt. A Model A or any other older car just doesn’t have the inbuilt crash safety we’ve become used into. Belting up and driving as though you are in a modern car is folly indeed.
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Old 07-28-2018, 03:39 PM   #53
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

My coupe has lap belts and I wish it had shoulder belts too. I dont trust those door latches at all. It is easy to feel confident when you have the wheel to hang on to but a passenger is just going to be at gods mercy if that door flies open unexpectedly. Of course a head on collision is going to be bad news belted or not but there are many more less extreme situations where being belted is positively better.
I think of motorcyclists who dont wear helmets when I hear these arguements.Some people are just contrarians.
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Old 07-28-2018, 04:01 PM   #54
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That’s a great idea, I might wear my full face motorcycle helmet in my A, that would provide much more crash protection than any seat belt.
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:18 PM   #55
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Default Re: Different take on seat belts

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I'm afraid I don't agree with the notion that seat belts are useless in a Model A. As the law works here, we are perfectly legal to use the car with NO seatbelt because they weren't fitted when the car was made and well before they became compulsory. It is not legal to fit seat belts unless they pass a stringent examination by an automotive engineer. WTF!!! Fitting a belt to these cars so it will pass inspection is impossible. I've installed them the best way I can and use them even though they are not approved. I feel I and my passengers are safer with what I have fitted than without. I figure that almost ANY restraint is better than none and that those stupid regulations in fact, compromise our safety. As the old saying goes, I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.
Thoroughly agree with sticking with the habit of putting one on when I get into the car.
We have the same regulations here . The theory being that the frame could seperate from the chassis and you would be cut in half. Absolute rubbish any crash that bad you're dead anyway regardless of seat belts . However we also have a six monthly safety check (WOF) which you have to pass -Any competent mechanic would pick up that your seat belts aren't legal and fail you. I do have seatbelts in my 1910 Hupmobile but I have an understanding mechanic. I place them out of sight for the WOF under the seat and he doesn't look very hard . On my 1930 A and 1934 I'm not sure I can hide them and know I wouldn't be able to pass an inspection with them.

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Old 07-28-2018, 10:27 PM   #56
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That’s a great idea, I might wear my full face motorcycle helmet in my A, that would provide much more crash protection than any seat belt.
Actually I once worked with a neurosurgeon who did exactly that in his modern car . His rationale was that he had seen to many patients with severe head injuries and long term brain damage from motor vehicle accidents .

He figured that if you survive an accident Broken bones can be fixed but head injuries can leave you severely disabled for life . Hence the Helmet

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Old 07-29-2018, 02:54 PM   #57
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One has a lot better chance of surviving a crash if one stays inside the car. Most accidents resulting in fatalities are because of victims coming out of the car. Seat belt keep you in the car. ‘Nuff said......
Right on!
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:14 PM   #58
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No1"But have you come across a deceased person that was buckled up?. You may not have been the one to "cut a dead person out of a belt" (you may have unbuckled them rater than cut them or removing the body was never your duty) but to suggest that you have been in fire and rescue for 50 years and know of NO instance where a person wearing a seat belt died at the scene of an accident is suspect at best." I'm not involved with fire and rescue and I know of several instances where people died in an accident while buckled up.#2 " In fact, statistically, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of accident victims are buckled up. Not because being buckled is more dangerous, simply because I believe that the VAST
majority of people DO buckle up and yet many people are killed every day in vehicle accidents."


In answer to # 1 In the maybe 200+ real serious accidents I have administered to (and thousands of not so serious), no I have never cut or unbuckled a dead person. I said cut because we all carry a belt cutter and when fast action needs to be done it is faster and easier than finding a release button located in the center of the vehicle or dealing with a jammed buckle, especially on a dark night. Some have died at the hospital but were delivered there alive. Not so with many who were not buckled in. This is especially tragic when it involves infants and children not in car seats or restrained. As to No 2, you would be surprised how many do not wear belts even though you are suppose to almost everywhere. We find this happens many times where alcohol is involved.
And you are correct about people buckled up also perish, I know of many instances where it has happened it is just in my tenure in both NY and VA.where I cut or unbuckled them, and yes it is part of my function to remove the "patients after they are stabilized, via backboard, cervical collar, KED, splints etc, I will be honest that when I arrived on many wrecks I said to myself that there is no way some one could have survived, but from my experience they did, so mine is an honest statement, thankfully. I might add that there have been accidents where a person died that wearing a seat belt would not have made a difference, but they weren't wearing one. I know of these in my response area because we discuss serious calls so that we can always try to do better doing the extraction. As to experience firefighter, vehicle extraction instructor, fire officer, former Paramedic. please be safe out there.
As a medical Practitioner who attends road accidents I have cut dead people out of seat belts. The belt didn't save them but then a full race harness and roll cage wouldn't have either -The circumstances of the crash meant survival was not an option. You are statistically less likely to die if you are wearing a belt by a country mile. Karl
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