Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-01-2016, 09:48 AM   #41
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Update: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

I drove the car to and from Hershey a few weeks ago, no problems. But I couldn't leave well enough alone, it was bothering me that I should have to have the adjustable thrust plunger, so I pursued it further. See the videos below:

The first one demonstrates a noise while cranking the engine manually with the valve cover off. The noise is significantly louder in the video than in person. The phone seemed to amplify it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty8R8IAzFus

The second video shows the backlash up front of a section of the gear just past TDC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmqjggeQwsU

The third video shows no significant backlash at another point in the gears rotation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpRcTs2Pc0k
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 11:44 AM   #42
tbirdtbird
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: inside your RAM
Posts: 3,134
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

...
__________________
'31 180A

Last edited by tbirdtbird; 02-02-2017 at 11:20 PM.
tbirdtbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-01-2016, 12:34 PM   #43
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

My gears are a matched set, aluminum timing gear, steel crank gear, standard size, purchased directly from Dan McEachern.
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 01:47 PM   #44
PC/SR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 1,277
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

You should contact Dan. He will not only make it right, he will want to know of any problems so he can correct them.
PC/SR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 03:45 PM   #45
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: Update: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zener424 View Post
I drove the car to and from Hershey a few weeks ago, no problems. But I couldn't leave well enough alone, it was bothering me that I should have to have the adjustable thrust plunger, so I pursued it further. See the videos below:

The first one demonstrates a noise while cranking the engine manually with the valve cover off. The noise is significantly louder in the video than in person. The phone seemed to amplify it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty8R8IAzFus

The second video shows the backlash up front of a section of the gear just past TDC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmqjggeQwsU

The third video shows no significant backlash at another point in the gears rotation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpRcTs2Pc0k
All the gears I got from Dan were spot on. Most likley some one ground the crank mains off the center line and that is making the crank gear run out. Seen this many times.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 09:40 PM   #46
tbirdtbird
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: inside your RAM
Posts: 3,134
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
...
__________________
'31 180A

Last edited by tbirdtbird; 02-02-2017 at 11:21 PM.
tbirdtbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 05:49 AM   #47
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

The backlash varies (loose/tight) at several points around the gear. Also, the points don't appear to be 180 degrees apart from on another. I'm having a hard time understanding how one would get these results if the mains were off center. If off center, wouldn't the backlash be either too loose or too tight consistently around the entire gear?
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 06:03 AM   #48
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zener424 View Post
The backlash varies (loose/tight) at several points around the gear. Also, the points don't appear to be 180 degrees apart from on another. I'm having a hard time understanding how one would get these results if the mains were off center. If off center, wouldn't the backlash be either too loose or too tight consistently around the entire gear?
No when the mains are ground the crank needs to be on the same center line as the cam gear and flywheel flange. If not the cam gear and flywheel will run out. Run out will cause your gear to be tight in one spot and loose in another spot.
I use to grind cranks in my Dads garage many years ago.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 06:26 AM   #49
gweilbaker
Senior Member
 
gweilbaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lindenhurst, IL
Posts: 792
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

I'm not sure if it means anything but the surface of the cam gear with respect to the crank shaft gear is greater in the "backlash video" to about even in the "no backlash video" making it seem that there is camshaft gear wobble. It could be only camera angle making the difference.
gweilbaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 08:37 AM   #50
V4F
Senior Member
 
V4F's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ca.
Posts: 2,522
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

my aluminum gear makes a ticking sound when cold , but goes away when warm . the clearance is the reason . takes the aluminum awhile to warm & expand . that way from new
__________________
V4f
V4F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 11:36 AM   #51
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

I have a standard size laminated timing gear. James Rogers had suggested I try this a while back. I'm gonna give it a try. I will update when installed.
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 12:38 PM   #52
Mitch//pa
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 11,454
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

What about checking the run out using a dial indicator on the crank and cam to see if something is bent
Mitch//pa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 02:02 PM   #53
hardtimes
Senior Member
 
hardtimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South California
Posts: 6,188
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zener424 View Post
I have a standard size laminated timing gear. James Rogers had suggested I try this a while back. I'm gonna give it a try. I will update when installed.
hey zener,
in you initial post, you did not say that you tightened the cam gear to what value lbs/ft, did you tighten the cam nut ?

I ask because important !!!

Last edited by hardtimes; 11-02-2016 at 02:04 PM. Reason: ..............
hardtimes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 03:57 PM   #54
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

"Hardtimes", I tightened the timing gear nut to 100 lbs. It does not appear loose.
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 07:33 PM   #55
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

I finally got around to swapping out the aluminum gear for a laminated one. There is no noise now. See the video below. I have driven it about 200 miles.
So far, so good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDRxFuGMqLs
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 09:38 PM   #56
Art Newland
Senior Member
 
Art Newland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Lynden, WA
Posts: 1,564
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Thanks for the follow-up. I have a clicking that I can't track down, I pulled the side cover off of my timing gear because of this thread. Sure enough there is an aluminum cam gear. Funny part is I really don't hear it when it's cool out like it has been lately, and never until the engine is warmed up. I'm very suspicious now that after the engine is warm, the aluminum expands and that brings on the noise.
Art Newland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 10:52 PM   #57
tbirdtbird
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: inside your RAM
Posts: 3,134
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

...
__________________
'31 180A

Last edited by tbirdtbird; 02-02-2017 at 11:21 PM.
tbirdtbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 12:44 AM   #58
Dan McEachern
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 193
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Just ran on to this and a few comments- why on earth are you tightening the cam gear nut to 100 ft-lbs??? 30-40 is plenty IMO. 2nd queston, how did you keep the cam from rotating while you tightened the nut? The bore, od and backside of my blanks are all machined in the same setup to keep them concentric and square. If the cam gear was wobbling, that will certainly cause backlash variations. Most of the time this is due to a cam nose flange that is out of square or dirt between the flange and the gear.
As others have said, runout of the crank gear can be caused by an improper crank grind and its entirely possible that the crank nose is running out because the crank grinder indicated the front journal rather than the gear area or the nose. If you pull it down again, take the pulley off and put an indicator in the crank nose.

If you want to return the gear, I'll be happy to replace it, inspect the old one and post here what I find. By the way, Bill Stipe makes great products but we all need to double check each others work solve these issues.
Dan

Thanks, Dan
Dan McEachern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 07:13 AM   #59
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Thanks for the response Dan. I will send you the gear.
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2016, 10:59 AM   #60
Zener424
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 77
Default Re: Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

Sorry Dan, forgot to answer your two questions:

"why on earth are you tightening the cam gear nut to 100 ft-lbs??? 30-40 is plenty IMO."
I used two books when rebuilding my engine:
The Model A Engine by By Paul H. and William H. Mcree
Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook by Les Andrews
One of those books I believe states the timing gear nut should be torqued to 100 ft lbs. I also used Bratton's FORD MODEL A SPECIFICATIONS web page as a reference and I believe it also stated 100 ft lbs.

"how did you keep the cam from rotating while you tightened the nut?"
I recall that I held the crank to prevent rotation and tightened the nut to 100 ft lbs.

Phil
Zener424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:16 AM.