1955 Club Sedan 302 Radiator Options

[Mad Mux]

Greetings All. I'm a Ford fanatic, for all the wrong reasons, but not much of a mechanic. Just bought a Club Sedan that has a 302 from a mid-80's Mustang GT. The guy installed an aluminum radiator that appears to be form fit for a late 60's Mustang. SBFs must be longer than Y-blocks because the cheapo flex fan is only about 1/4" from the radiator; in fact, it has damaged the rad in the past, messy repair still with pinhole leaks, so I need to replace it, and I'm thinking to replace it with an OE or OE-replacement aluminum rad.

I don't know how the OE radiator mounts, but from the few pics I can find it appears to be entirely inside the engine bay, mounted on the back side of the U-shaped "channel iron" bracket. But that will still be too close to the 302's fan/pulley....so, is there any reason why I cannot or should not mount the radiator "inside" the U-bracket, i.e. reverse the rad bracket "ears" so it sits further forward? Then I could use spacers to get the fan to the right distance (approx. 1"). I would insert rubber pads between the rad and the U-bracket.

The U-bracket opening is 20" wide. Champion makes an aluminum radiator with core 18-3/4" wide, so it would fit. Tank may also fit inside, if not I could mount it so tank rides above the U-bracket.

The alternative is to mount it as stock and run electric fan on front, that would give clearance.....but the inside-the-U-bracket solution just seems so obvious, so why not? I have a couple pics but don't know how to post them. Thanks for any advice!

[BW]

If you can mount it inside the channel and it works go for it.

[darrell]

if the motor was installed correct theres lots of room.there should be a spacer behind the fan get a shorter one

[5851a]

No sure on 55's but believe radiator was moved forward from factory on some 6 cylinder engines.

[Mad Mux]

Thanks. You would think there'd be plenty of room for a "Small" Block Ford...and I can't vouch for whether it was done "correctly" or not, as there are a LOT of other things the previous owner or builder did incorrectly (dipstick tube pulls right out of the hole, he used fuel hose for the ATF lines, etc., etc.). Regardless, I can't push the fan back any closer to the engine or it will contact the main pulley.

[JeffB2]

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If you are going to change the radiator and the fan you can gain almost 4" by using the 1965-69 289-302 "short" water pump and matching harmonic balancer and pulleys. Here is an example. The early "short" pump has the lower hose on the passenger side. 1970 and later "long pumps" are located on the drivers side.

[JeffB2]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

Thanks. You would think there'd be plenty of room for a "Small" Block Ford...and I can't vouch for whether it was done "correctly" or not, as there are a LOT of other things the previous owner or builder did incorrectly (dipstick tube pulls right out of the hole, he used fuel hose for the ATF lines, etc., etc.). Regardless, I can't push the fan back any closer to the engine or it will contact the main pulley.

Makes me wonder which motor mounts he used look at this link and be sure to read the text below the pictures. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-mounts.41498/ After reading that the gap between the firewall and pass side valve cover should be like this. The Headers are HEDMAN 88400's.

[Mad Mux]

Thanks! That spacing between driver's side valve cover and firewall looks very similar to mine. I'll try to get good pics of the mounts, I'm not familiar with the different types, but these look solid.

I like your suggestions on the short water pump, but maybe for a future reconfig. For now trying to get it driveable with as little mods as possible. Thinking about it more, this engine has a 2-groove crank pulley; water pump and power steering are on the "base" (?) water pump pulley, of course, and then only the outer groove of the 2-groove pulley is used for alternator; inner must have been AC? So I only need 1...if I can get a 1-groove pulley (anybody make one?), swapping would buy me about an inch, which would let the fan clear the pulley, and the radiator by a safe margin. Then I'd have to play with the alternator bracket to line it up, but that should be easy.

Pics attached. Thanks again for the ideas!

[5851a]

This has nothing to do with fan spacing but I believe the outer pulley sheave is usually for AC compressor. If that is used for alternator it would be really spinning fast.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

Thinking about it more, this engine has a 2-groove crank pulley; water pump and power steering are on the "base" (?) water pump pulley, of course, and then only the outer groove of the 2-groove pulley is used for alternator; inner must have been AC? So I only need 1...if I can get a 1-groove pulley (anybody make one?), swapping would buy me about an inch, which would let the fan clear the pulley, and the radiator by a safe margin. Then I'd have to play with the alternator bracket to line it up, but that should be easy.

You have a mis-match.

The crank pulley shows me three sheath while the WP pulley is showing me single sheath.



There should be STAMPING ID NOS on either pulley. That will give you an idea of what they were originally assembled on. It is also possible the CS pulley is two-piece. It all depends on where the owner found the pieces for the swap.

You may also be able to see a CASTING ID on the WP. That will give you an idea of what it was on originally.

The distance the fan sticks out is determined by the WP impeller length and a possible fan spacer.

Is a photo of the radiator install possible?

Are there any salvage yards in your area?

[Mad Mux]

Thanks guys. More pics tomorrow. Clearly this thing was cobbled together from a pile of sbf parts from 60s to 80s. Goal is just to get it running reliably, seems like moving alternator belt to the inner/small pulley is first step; then PS belt to outer groove.

I have another friend recommending to just go electric fan, then I could mount radiator however....thoughts?

[JeffB2]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

Thanks guys. More pics tomorrow. Clearly this thing was cobbled together from a pile of sbf parts from 60s to 80s. Goal is just to get it running reliably, seems like moving alternator belt to the inner/small pulley is first step; then PS belt to outer groove.

I have another friend recommending to just go electric fan, then I could mount radiator however....thoughts?

Best solution might be this. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-1955-1...UAAOSwH2VcOnVI

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

I have another friend recommending to just go electric fan, then I could mount radiator however....thoughts?

Originally Posted by JeffB2

Best solution might be this. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-1955-1...UAAOSwH2VcOnVI

An electric fan setup will be the FINAL SOLUTION. All you have then is pulley alignment and possible WP snout clearance.

Now if you do not wish to go electric, there is also a bolt-in ALUM RAD available and RAD SHROUD (mechanical fan).

[JeffB2]

The outer groove furthest away from the block is only for A/C,so you need to move that. The center groove should be power steering and groove closest to the block is the alternator.

[Mad Mux]

Thanks. Shows you how much I have to learn, I never really paid close attention to belt routing all these years. To do that I will have to get a different alt bracket , which could be a pain of trial and error to fit...and again, not trying to restore the engine to original, just trying to get it running.
How about this...get a 2-groove water pump pulley, run alt and WP on #2 crank groove (as in pic). I know #2 crank groove is bigger, so that would turn WP and alt a little faster, but is it enough faster to be a problem? Thats the easy solution, but if it will cause issues I'll do it as you say.
By the way, WP pulley is a C8, so is PS spacer bracket. Cant see casting number on the WP or PSP themselves. Manifold is RF-E3ZE-9425-FD....so yeah, a cobbled together SBF.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

WP pulley is a C8, so is PS spacer bracket. Cant see casting number on the WP or PSP themselves. Manifold is RF-E3ZE-9425-FD....so yeah, a cobbled together SBF.

C8 = 1968
E3ZE = 1983 - Z signifying MUST

I cannot see the PS pump clearly. Does it have a plastic reservoir? Any chance of the RAD install photo?

Do you want the install to look somewhat factory correct or just want a runner for now?

Will go whichever path you choose.

[KULTULZ]

Here is a good TECH thread - https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...ulleys.303600/

[Mad Mux]

Here's the PS pump. More Rad pics soon. Thanks!

[Mad Mux]

Thanks! I'll contact them to see if the mounting bracket "ears will work in mine...should.

[Mad Mux]

Originally Posted by JeffB2

If you are going to change the radiator and the fan you can gain almost 4" by using the 1965-69 289-302 "short" water pump and matching harmonic balancer and pulleys. Here is an example. The early "short" pump has the lower hose on the passenger side. 1970 and later "long pumps" are located on the drivers side.

Re-read your post....I must have a "long" water pump, it has mechanical fuel pump and dipstick in the timing cover. I like your suggestion, but maybe for down the road....would be easier to just push the radiator forward, or mount as OE and put electric fan on front (pusher). Right?

[Mad Mux]

Thanks, KULTULZ! By the way I used your joke at a gig last night while guitar player changing string....got a good chuckle from the audience.

I read the stampings wrong, both WP pulley and PSP bracket are D8, so '78, if it matters.

I just want a runner for now....would like to keep that Alt bracket; although it will look bad with unused AC mount, it is STURDY, and it lets Alt clear all suspension. If it's safe/reliable to run Alt and WP off #2 crank groove, I'd rather. If you all believe I MUST run Alt off #1 crank groove, then I'll have to change Alt bracket, and space the PSP forward to line up with #2 crank groove...all doable, but more time not driving it!

[Mad Mux]

More pics.
1) Back of PS pump, maybe somebody recognizes it?
2) OE radiator U-bracket; you can see the steel plates the builder welded on to mount the aftermarket radiator...those aren't coming off easy.
3) Rad that came with it...aftermarket alum, looks very much like late 60's Mustang rad.
4) Less than 2" clearance to radiator; also Note outlet port is VERY close to crank pulley...TOO close. OE pattern rad should be further away.
5) Driver's-side valve cover very close to firewall, motor mounted as far back as it can go; but since it has long water pump and 3-groove crank pulley, it's very close to rad.

First priority is getting the pulleys sorted out, then the radiator and fan should be easy enough.
Thanks mucho!

[JeffB2]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

Re-read your post....I must have a "long" water pump, it has mechanical fuel pump and dipstick in the timing cover. I like your suggestion, but maybe for down the road....would be easier to just push the radiator forward, or mount as OE and put electric fan on front (pusher). Right?

If the radiator were mounted like a 1955 Six cylinder car you would gain more clearance.

[JeffB2]

This shows how the Six cylinder cars mounted the radiator forward,notice in the lower part it shows panels for a Six these move the splash pan forward since yours probably had a Y-block you need to modify the splash pan to move the radiator forward. I have some pictures to follow so you can see that solution.

[JeffB2]

One more image.

[Mad Mux]

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Thanks JeffB2!!!! Now I know why my splash pan is cut out just like that! A previous tinkerer must have played with just such a radiator mount, then ended up doing the hokey Mustang radiator thing. Your pics and post are great, and help me confirm I can use the smaller model rad made by Champion Radiators, which will fit within the U-bracket (excuse my terminology)...I just have to get them to reverse the bracket ears to the engine side of the rad, then it will mount much like the I-6 rads. Then I'll have tons of fan clearance. Thanks again!

Still cogitating on the pulley configuration.

[Mad Mux]

This pic shows the splash pan is already cut out for a forward-mounted radiator, although I dont think I'll need that much cutout.

[JeffB2]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

This pic shows the splash pan is already cut out for a forward-mounted radiator, although I dont think I'll need that much cutout.

It very often comes down to that ,finding those lower OEM 6 cylinder sheet metal pieces would not come easy these days in your local Pick-A-Part.

[Mad Mux]

Thank goodness there are still a few Ford graveyards scattered around the country...I've been talking to one in central Kansas, in fact my car's title has the proprietor's name on it (still)....no use re-titling it if I can't get it running.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

Thanks, KULTULZ! By the way I used your joke at a gig last night while guitar player changing string....got a good chuckle from the audience.

I read the stampings wrong, both WP pulley and PSP bracket are D8, so '78, if it matters.

I just want a runner for now....would like to keep that Alt bracket; although it will look bad with unused AC mount, it is STURDY, and it lets Alt clear all suspension. If it's safe/reliable to run Alt and WP off #2 crank groove, I'd rather. If you all believe I MUST run Alt off #1 crank groove, then I'll have to change Alt bracket, and space the PSP forward to line up with #2 crank groove...all doable, but more time not driving it!

What you have to consider is that pulley sheath diameter(s) were designed to achieve proper accessory drive speed(s).

A pusher fan will obstruct air flow through the radiator. It might be better to move the radiator forward (if it will fit within the confines of the core support) if wanting to keep the present FEAD (Front Engine Accessory Drive).

Is that a TRANS COOLER mounted in front of the RAD?

Do you see an ID TAG on the PS pump?

Another forum member here has a '56 that had a mis-matched SBF conversion.

Can you give the first five characters of the VIN to see how it came out of the factory?

[Mad Mux]

1) Yes, I do plan to push the radiator forward into the U-bracket, should give me plenty of room for flex or puller electric fan.
2) I do see a trans cooler in JeffB2's pic, but that's not mine. I will run trans lines to the standard 1/8-27 NPT fitted cooler on the new radiator.
3) No ID tag or stamping visible on the PS pump....I may have to pull it to try to see one.
4) Vin is U5DT2

Thanks!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

2) I do see a trans cooler in JeffB2's pic, but that's not mine. I will run trans lines to the standard 1/8-27 NPT fitted cooler on the new radiator.

KEY WORDS ... I seem to have trouble noticing and understanding ...

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

4) Vin is U5DT2

Can you re-check that THIRD CHARACTER?

[KULTULZ]

BTW - That PS pump is a late SAGINAW, usually put on light truck.

The ALT mounts in the cradle of the bracket and the Thermactor Pump goes underneath it (OEM ASSEMBLY)

[Mad Mux]

Back of PS pump, after removing line that was leaking at the actuator...presumably that is the return line since its not a pressure fitting?

Another pic of pulleys:

Crank #3 (forwardmost) pulley=8.375"
Crank #2 pulley= 8"
Crank #1 pulley=6.75"
WP pulley=5.75"
Alt pulley=2.75"

WP pulley barely clears the #1 crank pulley belt, and #2 crank pulley overlaps it by 1/8" or so, almost touching....surely that's not right...is that what you (KULTULZ) meant by "you have a mis-match"?

Solution...get smaller crank pulleys, or a matched crank/WP pulley set from March? They make a 2-groove crank pulley that's 5.75" dia, which would solve the pulley overlap and bring the Crank-to-Alt ratio down closer to 2.

Another view of Alt bracket, sturdy as hell. I'll play with mouting it in the cradle, but it actually works very well where it's at.

Thanks, as always!

[Mad Mux]

Checked...U5DT2..., body code 70C, color code RES.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

Back of PS pump, after removing line that was leaking at the actuator...presumably that is the return line since its not a pressure fitting?

Correct. Line held by hose clamp is return.

WP pulley barely clears the #1 crank pulley belt, and #2 crank pulley overlaps it by 1/8" or so, almost touching....surely that's not right...is that what you (KULTULZ) meant by "you have a mis-match"?

By mis-match I meant the complete FEAD was thrown together from multi-vehicles.with no rhyme or reason.

Solution...get smaller crank pulleys, or a matched crank/WP pulley set from March? They make a 2-groove crank pulley that's 5.75" dia, which would solve the pulley overlap and bring the Crank-to-Alt ratio down closer to 2.

Another view of Alt bracket, sturdy as hell. I'll play with mouting it in the cradle, but it actually works very well where it's at.

Thanks, as always!

MARCH is $$$. It is the easiest way out but IMO presents a non-stock appearance.

As for the ALT MTG BRACKET, I only pointed that out as a reference. I cannot tell you how you want the engine to look. That is personal taste.

How did you come across this car? Was it drive-able at purchase?

[JeffB2]

American made company,kits available in black or billet. https://www.cvfracing.com/ford/ford-...ulley-systems/

[Mad Mux]

Thanks...I found them yesterday, but haven't called yet.

[Mad Mux]

Turns out my pulley setup may be "somewhat correct" after all. It doesn't make sense that Ford would have designed a FEAD setup to use the PS Pump as tensioner for the the WP, but apparently they did! Garrett from Mustangs Etc. in Van Nuys, CA pointed that out in a post I found, and here is a diagram for 1970 Mustangs from the "Mustang Grabber Registry" site. I will still see what CVF has to say about maybe running a smaller Crank pulley and changing to run a WP-Alt belt....but at least I now know the builder wasn't completely crazy!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

....but at least I now know the builder wasn't completely crazy!

No, he was either at a loss for donor parts and/or not overly talented.

U5DT

U= 272CI 2V 165HP
5= 1955 Model Run
D= Dallas Assy
T= Fairlane Tudor & Fordor Sedan (Series Code)

This is an early seventies FEAD, ALT and PS. See how simple it should be?

[Mad Mux]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

How did you come across this car? Was it drive-able at purchase?

What? And further betray my ignorance, gullibility, and impulsiveness? OK, you deserve a laugh.

I was looking for an SBF '55, saw it on ebay; not much of a description, and couldn't get the seller to answer my many questions, so I made a low offer.
He accepted and called me, gave me more info, and described himself as an old-school hot rodder/drag racer, so I kinda figured he knew whether this car was a good build or not. Seemed like an honest old guy when I met him to settle up; car started right up, and drove onto the transport truck; leaky PS box, and too big tires rubbing on rear wheel well lip, but I planned to change tire/wheel setup anyway. Maybe seller honestly thought this would be an easy build, or maybe he was just unloading his rat's nest on the first rube he could find. Either way, I'm stubborn enough to stick with it and figure it out, until and unless I find that the cobbled-together build has caused deeper problems, like cracked head(s) or block...then I might bail. The rest of the car is pretty decent, most importantly, very solid frame and body pedestals, good glass/weatherstripping all around, interior older resto pretty good.

[Mad Mux]

More evidence of where this engine came from, this diagram of 1980-87 F-series w/o EFI, looks very close to my FEAD setup (sans AC or smog pump, whatever that is above and belted to the Alt); so, surprisingly, mine is actually correct to this series.

My manifold code indicates '83-'85 Mustang GT, which I assume was a tempting and easy swap if the builder had one laying around.

Thanks!

[Mad Mux]

I agree, wish mine was that simple. Some day I may try to swap around to make it that simple, like Ford engineers should have done, but for now, since belts are good and tight, probably just run it the way it is.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

What? And further betray my ignorance, gullibility, and impulsiveness? OK, you deserve a laugh.

No laugh as I have done the same. You fall in love with a car and you try to save it.

Got the T-Shirts to prove it.

It'll come together.

[dmsfrr]

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Originally Posted by Mad Mux

What? And further betray my ignorance, gullibility, and impulsiveness? ...

I strongly resemble this remark.
As further evidence...
Two photos under the hood of a Bird my wife insisted we get, she loves the exterior color.
Picking it up early next week. It needs lots of TLC under the hood (and paint).

[Mad Mux]

I don't know, looks pretty good to me! I don't see a rat's nest of wiring off the alternator and the voltage regulator just sitting unfastened on the inner wheel well, or vacuum ports capped by lengths of hose with duct tape over the ends. I see a Bird in my future in maybe 10 years or so, but I'll probably have to settle for much worse than yours!

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Mad Mux

I don't know, looks pretty good to me! ... I see a Bird in my future in maybe 10 years or so, but I'll probably have to settle for much worse than yours!

It has it's own problems besides all the spiders underneath.
The canister to the left of the fan shroud is a cheezy toilet-paper oil filter conversion kit
The OD and half the dash gauges aren't working, the rear main seal leaks and the rubber suspension bushings are dry rotted. While the engine & trans is out the engine compartment will be painted back to the original yellow color (along with repainting the engine, and hooking up the vacuum hoses correctly).
Fortunately the current owner took pity on me and said my low-ball offer was still too high, so I accepted his lower counter-offer.
With any luck I can straighten it all out for a few thousand (haha)
.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

With any luck I can straighten it all out for a few thousand (haha)
.

Now you know you are too detailed oriented to believe that one ...

[5851a]

Glad there are still a few old school salvage yards around here. You can still find a few rusted out Fords from late 60's/70's with complete running gear. If you can find something like that and engine complete you have everything you need. Even if you have to haul home the entire engine you have a perfect matched set of components made to do the job together and you know what to ask for if you need a replacement part. The few Ford shop and parts manuals that I have from 60's/70's are a incredible amount of good reading. The shop manuals will tell you the under or overdrive ratio of accessories to crank speed etc.

[bobss396]

Talk to Bob at Owen's Salvage in Texas, he has acres of old Fords and may have the 6-cylinder item you need. Most of those parts stay with the cars unless someone needs to replace a rusty part.