Non detergent 40W

[fordfixer]

Wentot Farm and Fleet to pick up some more non detergent 40w motor oil. They don't carry it anymore. They only have 30w non detergent. Got to find another supply.

[Mike V. Florida]

OK I'll bite

Just about any auto supply store will have 40w.

Advance
Pep boys
O'reily
even Wal-mart and k mart

[MAG]

Had the same problem. Couldn't find a local source. Someone on Ford Barn suggested I remove the oil pan and tappet cover and clean out all the old sludge. I did that and while I had the engine open I adjusted the main and rod shims and checked the tappet clearance. Re-assembled and installed a full flow oil filter system and started using detergent oil. That was excellent advise because I now have a clean engine and no trouble finding the oil I need.

[V4F]

i dont understand using old tech ! i run vr-1 valvoline racing oil (20-50) (zddp) . it has all you need & keeps it clean .............. steve

[Jason in TX]

I second running VR-1 racing oil with ZDDP. It's not frothing up like a washing machine in the oil pan like some people think will happen with detergent oil. And the ZDDP is adding protection to hard parts.

I'll take not ruining the tappets over "what if the oil gets foamy"

[fordfixer]

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Not all of our club members run the modern oils. They just don't what to drop the pans and clean them out or they just prefer what was used when the car was new. I myself run 10/40w. But I started when the engine was rebuilt. Not everyone has a rebuilt engine. If I got it at Farm and Fleet it was only about 2 dollars a quart. Not all parts stores carry the non detergent either. Then you pay 4 to 5 dollars a quart. I only threw this out for information. Jon

[SGT in Ont.]

Non detergent oil is quickly going the way of the DO DO BIRD. Not enough people using it to justify the manufacture or it. Companies want stock to move, not sit on a shelf.

[55 dude]

your gonna find 30w for some time because it is used in vacuum pumps and it's just considered "raw 30w" so they run off said amount before adding anything.

[Mike V. Florida]

I never did think this was a real post but I bit abs answered.

Notice how it was never asked;

Where can i find 40w oil?
Can I use other oil?
Can I use detergent oil?
Can i use another weight?

This was just to start up the oil debate once again!

[MAG]

QUOTE “Wentot Farm and Fleet to pick up some more non detergent 40w motor oil. They don't carry it anymore. They only have 30w non detergent. Got to find another supply.” QUOTE

QUOTE “Not all of our club members run the modern oils. They just don't what to drop the pans and clean them out or they just prefer what was used when the car was new. I myself run 10/40w. But I started when the engine was rebuilt. Not everyone has a rebuilt engine. If I got it at Farm and Fleet it was only about 2 dollars a quart. Not all parts stores carry the non detergent either. Then you pay 4 to 5 dollars a quart. I only threw this out for information. Jon “ QUOTE

I'm confused.

[Patrick L.]

Really want to start a debate?? How about adding some STP to your 30 wgt??

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by MAG

I'm confused.

Why are you confused? The fact is that ANY oil today is FAR superior to any oil back in the day.

You can use ANY oil at least 30 wt, detergent, non detergent, synthic, multi-weight and it will work fine.

If you don't believe me please have a model A engine builder (one that does it for a living) post here that he has had a running engine fail due to changing the oil from detergent to non-detergent or single grade to multi grade.

When I bought my car it was running on straight non detergent 50W oil. After changing to a multi weight detergent oil the engine ran several more years until a valve went.

[fordfixer]

Wow, why is everyone getting their pantys all wadded up for? This was just a note to say that 40w non detergent is getting harder to find.

[zzlegend]

i gotta agree with you, fordfixer. it was a simple post.

[Dee Jay]

If it works for you, run it. If something else works for someone,they can run that.

[Uncle Bob]

There is a "non-detergent" alternative if you want to jump the hoops.

Personally I'm in the camp for using contemporary oils, with the adjustment for zinc anti-wear where appropriate. The fear of dispersants in older engines is misunderstood, but the whizzin' contest makes it not worth discussion.

If you seek a wholesale/commercial oil distributor you can get "turbine oil" (although it could be labeled differently so you'd have to ask) in an ISO 150 grade for the SAE 40 equivalent, ISO 100 for SAE 30. Turbine oils are basically base oil with anti-rust additive, maybe some anti-foam, and no detergent or anti-wear additive. Virtually the same formulation of the old "non-detergent" oils. Not likely to be in packageing less than 5 gal bucket, but if you're diehard you'll figure it out. "Compressor oil" would be one example of alternative packageing, but I'd want to check the data sheet because that's a loose term in some circles.

[vinepro]

I would take the oil filter of the engine be for to long. When you run with one of those on it will starve the front valves and I have seen vale guides pulled out of the engine when it gets hot. If you just think about how the oil works at that point you will see it for your self. Thanks

[ford1]

lol, i might as well stir the pot a little more, how come the subject of detergent oils being bad for the babbit, its been said it destroys it

[Bassman/NZ]

I'll stir it a bit too.
It's unlikely the zddp reduction will make any difference to a stock A engine with original cam, lifters and springs.
First, the stock A springs are so weak they put little pressure on the cam.
Second, Henry made parts in his own foundries, and he was very concious of the quality, unlike modern parts made from chinese powder-iron. His original cams had a good Rockwell hardness rating (I fergit what it was) compared to say, an aftermarket cam for a small block Chev. Even cams from todays reputable cam grinders may or may not be ground on inferior chinese billets. If replacing the cam, it would pay to directly ask the grinder (not the supplier, they wont know) where his billets are made, US or china.
Third, Model A and flathead V8 engines were clocking up many miles before zddp started being added to oil, which I believe was after WWII (someone may want to correct me on that?)
Will I add zddp to my detergent oil? Damn right... better safe than sorry.
I believe Kendall 20w-50w still contains about 1200ppm zddp, as well as the Valvoline racing oil, and is probably a better oil to use. Racing oils are made to be replaced very frequently, and while they contain high levels of zddp, they miss out on the additives necessary for prolonged street use, such as anti varnishing, particulate suspension and so on.
I'd stay away from racing oils, but then of course there will be some who have used it for ever in their As, their tractors, their PT cruisers and swear by it. That's the nature of a contentious issue.
As I said earlier... use zddp? Dont use zddp? It's cheap and better safe than sorry.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by ford1

lol, i might as well stir the pot a little more, how come the subject of detergent oils being bad for the babbit, its been said it destroys it

I've not heard that theory until I just read it here.

I know for a fact that ethylene-glycol (anti-freeze) most definitely attacks babbit, and getting anti-freeze into the oil will quickly wipe-out all the bearings in an engine. But that's a story for another thread.


For as long as I've been playing around with old cars and trucks ( over 40 years), the consistent concern I've heard expressed regarding use of detergent oils in old "non-detergent" engines was that the detergent would "bust loose all that old sludge and it will plug-up oil passages / galleries". Much of this came from various gear-head uncles who grew-up with Model T and Model A Fords, and lived right on through the advent of Mutli-vis and detergent oils.

Another concern I hear voiced among old engine circles is that detergent oils "keep all that crud in suspension" (which is true) "and that crud is constantly circulating and scouring the innards of the engine", where as with Non-detergent oils, the heavier contaminants will settle-out of the oil, and accumulate "harmlessly" in the bottom of the crankcase (as "sludge").

As for detergent oil itself attacking babbit, I don't believe that could be the case, as modern insert bearings still use a layer of babbit as the bearing surface.


Now, folks who collect and restore antique electric fans (and other old electric motors) maintain that detergent oils will clog the pores in porous bronze bushings, and that only non-detergent oil should be used in bronze bearings / bushings. I have also heard this from guys in the motor re-winding business.

We definitely know how non-detergent oils behave in automobile engines.

Sucessful use of detergent oil in a sludgy old engine, is less clear...
I think there's a greater risk of sludgy bits blocking an oil passage in the gravity/splash system of the Ford than in cars with pressurized oiling systems.

I see no reason not to use modern detergent, multi-viscosity oil ("the best you can buy") in a CLEAN engine; it will prevent the accumulation of sludge, especially in engines that run short trips and never get hot enough for long enough to "Boil" unburned fuel & other contaminants out of the oil.

For what it's worth, when I got my '41 De Soto, 14 years ago, it was just (another) tired old jalopy - 74,000 miles, knocking rods & slapping pistons, stuck valve, no brakes, etc. I got it cleaned-up and re-braked, freed the gummy valve, and have proceeded to put about 40,000 miles on it since then. I have run detergent oil in it since I got it. Never had the pan down. Valve chambers weren't too sludgy when I was in there...
Has an oil filter (partial flow).

It's still going... has 104,000 miles on it presently, still knocking, still smoking, but has not gotten appreciably worse in 40,000 miles of running.

It also has full-pressure lubrication (not gravity/splash) and insert bearings, so even when the engine (finally!) gets its rebuild, it won't need to be sent away for an expensive babbit job, like my A or my Stovebolt Chevys.

For the time being, I am using SAE-30 Non-Detergent in my tired-old 81,000 mile '28 Ford. When I get the engine re-done, I will use modern, detergent oil in it. Perhaps I will use straight-weight, but definitely detergent.

Your results may vary...

[ford1]

Frank you made a lot of good points, now i will answer some of them ,detergent oil does not attack babbit, as you said modern bearings use a coating of babbit as the wear surface against the crank, and they run 200,000 miles or more using detergent oil, that myth started with some model a guys ever since detergent oil was put on the market, and like it or not particals are pumped thru the engine with or with out detergent oil, they can not all settle out over night, if they did the oil would show clean on the dip stick every morning, so they are still suspended and are circulated thru the system, and detergent oil does not flake off large chunks of oil, alto it does wash down the sludge stuck on the sides and bottom of engine , thus removing the sludge slowly, not in big chunks, but arguing that is like aruging religion and politics, you will never change the mind of a zealot or true beliver, best to just let it lie lol

[Steve Ciccalone]

In answer to the question, 40wt NDT is no longer carried at parts places or so it seems but is still available in 5 gal pails from Valvoline/Drydene, etc. One has to look on the internet. I don't think this is a continuation of the oil arguement. I will continue to use what I have had success with. NDT in old engines of unknown history and modern oil in clean rebuilt engines. I have never in over 40 years had a failure due to the oil. It boils down to the KISS principal. CHANGE THE OiL REGULARLY in accordance with prescribed original interval unless you have a filter. Oil is cheap vs. a rebuild.

[JEC]

You might want to try your local airport fixed base operator. We use straight mineral oil (Non detergent) for break in on light aircraft engines. After break in we switch to compounded oil (detergent).
We use Aero Shell 100 which is 50 weight But 40 weight could probably be ordered.

[mrtexas]

Non-detergent oil proponents. Have you ever seen the amount of sludge build-up when non-detergent oil is used? I found a half inch of sludge in the valve chamber in the 28 RPU I bought 2 years ago. Does that sound good? I cleaned out the pan and valve chamber with carburetor cleaner and put on an oil filter. No more non-detergent oil for me. I personally think detergent oil without a filter and changed every 500 miles would be better than non-detergent oil in the long run. The old VW opposed 4 didn't have an oil filter and had a frequent oil change interval, not that the air cooled engine was long lived.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Bassman/NZ

Third, Model A and flathead V8 engines were clocking up many miles before zddp started being added to oil, which I believe was after WWII (someone may want to correct me on that?)

Mostly correct. It was developed/introduced in the mid '30s, but didn't come into common useage until after WWII with the beginning of widespread OHV, higher compression, and horsepower race.

Other items to think of for the thoughtful. What we loosely describe as detergent is actually referred to more correctly as detergent/dispersant. I suspect most people have a vision in their mind of something like that toilet bowl cleaner commercial that sends the little "scrubbing bubbles" around the bowl. Doesn't work like that. The dispersant word is more accurate. It's intent is to keep particles formed as byproducts of combustion in suspension as they get into the crankcase, not wait til sludge is formed then "disolve" it. It's second purpose is to neutralize acids that might be formed. (detergents are basic on the PH scale) Believe it or not that's probably less of an issue today than a few decades ago. Today sulphur levels in gasoline are more tightly controlled. Also, when lead was removed from gasoline the chemicals that scavenged out the excess lead freed up during combustion were removed. Those scavenger chemicals also formed acids when mixed with the water vapor resulting from combustion. A significant reason why engine internals and exhaust systems typically last much longer today than years gone bye.

[Old182]

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Great information! Adding to the mess... ZDDP's (there are several) were added to oils in the mid 30s (as Uncle Bob said) as antioxidants, not antiwear agents. It turned out that over the years as engines became more powerful with increased compression ratios (thanks to octane improvement from tetraethyl lead), and higher engine speeds, antiwear became an issue, and zinc/phosphorous compounds were cheap, available, and already being used. Unc is right on the money regarding detergents/dispersants also: According to a research report from a major oil company, detergents were first used in motor oils to prevent valve sticking, and the first detergents were similar to - you guessed it - household cleaners! Modern detergents are largely "overbased" molecules with many compounds available that deliver varying characteristics, but none are like Lux Liquid. They help to neutralize the acids produced from combustion and oxidation as well as remove deposits and prevent rust. If you think about it, why would anyone design an oil with an additive that washes off oil? It doesn't make sense (and it doesn't happen). Unc's right again regarding sulfur: There's not much left in motor oils and it's virtually non-existent in gasolines today, but oxidation still takes place and that produces acids that need to be neutralized to protect bearings and other surfaces. Interestingly, base oils (non-detergents) are quite stable to oxidation, but many dispersants and detergents are pro-oxidative and, while they serve a useful purpose, must be considered. I'm still baffled as to how many of us take advantage of the improvements in bearings (inserts), crankshaft balancing, pressurized oil systems, lightened flywheels, overdrives, juice brakes, electronic ignition, yada-yada, but somehow can't come to grips with the improvements in engine oils during the last 80 years. Giving up detergent/dispersants, antifoam, antiwear, antirust, oxidation inhibitors, and friction modifiers in favor of base oil (great for compressors, gear boxes and electrical gadgets)....well, we are a diversified bunch aren't we? Since I'm sure I've worn out my welcome anyway, just a short comment about aviation oils: Piston aviation engines operate at or above 50% power for a lot of their lives and experience almost no stop and go conditions (student pilots excepted). And aircraft engines tend to run hotter than automotive engines, particularly during take off and climb. Although you might get away with using Aeroshell in you automotive engine, the additive package differs measurably from automotive oils. IMHO, it would be a good idea to know what you're putting into your baby's crankcase so as to possibly not regret it later. Sorry for all the wind....