1950 8BA Rebuild Questions

[kirkf]

For my 1959 F47 (Canadian F1) rebuild project I'm at the point where I'm going to need to spec out parts for the motor.

See my truck thread here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205728

I'm going to need to pick the parts and where to source them from.
As I'm in Canada its easier for me if a lot of parts come from the same source, as it can be a pain dealing with the border, and also some vendors don't like shipping to Canada.
In which case I have to ship them to an address at the border and drive down to get them.

Obviously I'll be waiting for word from the machine shop on actual sizes required.

The rebuild I intend to do is as follows (And this is open to change depending on the advice I get)

1. It will be for the most part a stock rebuild, using quality new parts. I want this motor to run well for a very long time.
2. The parts I will be reusing are the Block, Heads, Crank, Rods, Intake, Timing Gears, Distributor and Carb. Everything else will be replaced.
3. The block, heads, crank, and rods will be going into a machine shop to be hot tanked (or whatever equivalent they use these days) and checked for cracks, issues, etc.
4. I intend to have the bore and any journals moved up to the next standard oversize as required. I don't intend to try and increase the displacement by increasing bore or changing crank / rods.

Some of the initial questions to be answered are:

1. What should I do about valve seats? Replace them with hardened seats? Replace exhaust only, or intake and exhaust?

2. What pistons should I use? 3 or 4 ring? What brand? What vendor? and with those what are the best rings?

3. I'm replacing the complete valve assemblies, valve,spring,guides, clips, etc etc. What is the best source for ordering a complete matched set.

4. I'm intending on using adjustable valve lifters, what specific brand and vendor is recommended for these? Should I have the machine shop drill holes to hold these for adjustment?

5. I'm intending on replacing the cam. It could be with either stock or a mild aftermarket brand. What would everyone recommend?

6. How common is it to paint the inside of the block with rustoleum or glyptol? Is this a good or bad idea?

7. Should I replace the crank bolts with new ones? ARP? Should I brace the center journal? What is the preferred source for the brace?

8. Should I replace head bolts with new ones? ARP or Factory?

9. I'll need to replace the oil pump, again what are the expert opinions on brand and vendor?

10. I would prefer to replace rope seals where possible with modern seals. What are the options?


All opinions welcome. I've got several books, but I know there is a ton of highly experienced builders on here, and Id like to tap into all that knowledge!

And again, nothing above is written in stone, if you have an opinion I'm on the wrong path for any of it, please feel free to throw in your .02

Thanx,

Kirk

[GreenMonster48]

I'll try to help. I built a 258" Flathead 8BA for my '48 F1

1.) I had hardened put in. Necessary? Not sure, but it didn't cost much for peace of mind

2.) I used Egge 4 ring pistons. Do you have a stock 3 3/4 crank? Some people had issues with Egge's and the 4 inch cranks IIRC.

3.) I used Red's Headers for 90% of my stuff. Great people.

4.) I would have the shop drill the lifters. I didn't, and I regret it. I think an NOS set of Johnsons is ideal, but I got the Red's brand. No issues after 500+ miles. Your mileage may vary.

5.) I used a 3/4 race Schneider off the shelf. 254F I believe. I like it. Not lopey, pulls pretty well. A little bigger might have been more fun. Call Schneiders direct and tell them what you're looking for, they can custom grind.

6.) No idea.

7.) Don't know about bracing, but all new hardware is a good idea.

8.) I prefer studs over bolts. I used Speedway for those

9.) Melling oil pump, stock pressure.

10.) Not sure, I used rope, they sealed fairly well after break in.

***one more thing to mention: Use Brad Penn oil for break-in and for at least your first few oil changes!

[tubman]

Regarding seals, I am putting a '51 Merc engine into my '51 Ford. The Merc ran great and had good compression, but it leaked badly. I had to change the pan from the one that was on it to the Ford pan, and while I was at it , I replaced the stock front and rear seals, carefully following the instructions. I have had the engine running on my test stand for several hours testing various intake and ignition options. It has not leaked a drop from either the front or rear seal. Being on a stand, it would be real easy to see if it was. I don't think that here is any replacement for the rear seal in any event, and I have heard that to use one of the new one piece front seals you have to get a new sleeve for the crankshaft and use RTV to keep it in place. I did purchase a one piece seal from Speedway, and after looking at it, decided to go with the stock rope seal. I'm glad I did.

As to pistons. I am just finishing another flatty, this time a completely rebuilt 258" 8BA. I got a smokin' deal on some .125 oversize four ring pistons from Speedway's garage sale. After discussing it with my machinist and on here and the H.A.M.B., I decided to run the four ring pistons with only the top three rings. I guess it is a fairly common practice. I'll let you know in a month or two how that works out. I had the rotating assembly balanced in this configuration, and it was no problem.

[kirkf]

GreenMonster,

Thanks for the info!

The crank is the stock 3 3/4. (As long as it checks out ok from the machine shop)
What brand of gaskets did you use? I see best gasket mentioned in a few other threads as being a good option.

Kirk

[kirkf]

Tubman,

I have to admit, I've never put in a rope seal, which is why I was looking at using a seal I was more familiar with.
I hadn't heard about using only 3 rings on a four ring pistion, but I guess it makes sense.
What type of rings did you use?
And as I asked GreenMonster above, which gasket kit do you prefer?

Thanx
Kirk

[GreenMonster48]

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I think I got the Fel-pro kit, but subbed the head gaskets for Best Gaskets. My crank is also balanced

[tubman]

The last gasket set I got was a "Fel-Pro". IIRC, the rear seals install as is and should not be trimmed. The front seal comes with a trimming guide that allows you to trim the rope seal just the right amount "proud". The new gasket sets come with graphite-impregnated or teflon-coated seals instead of just the old "rope". From my experience, they are far superior to the old stuff. I don't think they have to be soaked overnight in oil anymore either, but I did it anyhow to be safe.

Regarding the rings, I don't know what kind they were because they came with the pistons. I would rather have used different pistons with moly rings, but for $109.95 for pistons, rings, and pins, how could I go wrong? I was wary of them, but my machinist checked them over carefully and said they were fine. I believe that the Speedway-branded piston sets were made by Offenhauser. Looking back, I should have bought all they had.

The fourth ring on a flathead piston is another oil control ring. The story is that Ford was having oil consumption problems, and brought in some Oldsmobile engineers who came up with the fourth ring solution. With modern ring technology, the fourth ring does nothing but create extra drag and can be dispensed with.

[RandyZ]

I've been using the 3 ring Egge pistons in my truck for about 14 years now and have no oil burning problem at all.

[kirkf]

The machine shop called and they have confirmed that block is in good shape. No cracks in any critical areas.

Block can be bored to .030
Crank .010
Rods .010

So now its time to actually order some parts.

Any last words of wisdom?

Kirk

[GOSFAST]

Hi Kirk, now's the time to put bronzed-lined guides in along with some nice stainless valves. You'll never regret it!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Not a single "hung" valve, due to longer periods of storage, in over 30 or 40 years now! I battled this on my own '49 F-1 for a few years, got fed up after a while and did the first set of bronze-lined guides here. Every Flathead we've built since that time got the liners! In around 1985/1990 we were doing about 15/20 units per year! Most were for a single customer, "Flathead Bob" he was called!

[revkev6]

hey kirk, sorry no info for you but I'm eagerly following along. I'm about to tear my 8ba down for a slight refresh and look see after being on the road for 25 years. similar setup to what you are building. .030 over isky 77b cam with johnsons. it has edelbrock heads and an offy 2x2...

going to need gaskets and everyone's best advice on sealing up a flathead top to bottom. this was my fathers build when I was a kid, and keeping the oil leaks from showing was always my job and after 25 years on the road (and it now being my car) I'm getting sick of the leaks!!!!

[19Fordy]

No need to paint the inside of your engine block unless it is a porous aluminum block. I would not do it unless I was a million % sure no paint would ever flake off and clog an oil passage. Not worth the gamble. Besides, how much of a difference will it make in a flathead if the co-efficient of friction is reduced so that the oil can return to the pan .001 seconds faster?
Here's some info.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...ya-use.323883/
http://www.caimag.com/forum/showthre...f-engine-cases

[JSeery]

I paint the galleys, hold over from racing engines!

[revkev6]

another question I have... best books to get??

[tubman]

I particularly liked George McNicoll's book, as well as any of Joe Abbin's. Granted his are about blown flatheads, but they have good information in them. Also, JWL's book was a dose of reality to anyone thinking they are going to build a 200 horse mild flathead with a set of heads 'n carbs. There are a lot more out there, but these are my favorites.

[chap52]

Be sure to check the piston to head clearances. (Lots of post on "claying" and "foil" procedures on this site) I installed new pistons and had to do some hear machining to get the clearances right. I installed the pistons and thumb tightened the heads then hand turned the engine and it came to a stop??? Yep, piston just touching the head. Followed the above mentioned "foil" test, hand ground on the heads, re-foiled and buttoned it up. Runs great. Sure glad I didn't torque the heads and spin the starter...

[scooder]

Arp hardware is overkill on most all flatheads. Have you checked the price of an arp head set of studs!!!!!
If your intention is to bolt it together and not open it up for as long as possible, use head bolts, don't need nothin fancy, Ol' Ron uses grade 5 with complete success.
Keeping stock heads, cut them for 0.050-0.045" piston clearance. Helps throttle response, ads a bit of compression, adds torque, better on gas.
Stock cam, best for low down torque.
Valve setup, you may already have hardened seats on the exhaust, they phased them out on the 8BA style block.
Nothing wrong with stock guides and valves, they worked from the factory forever, nurled guides is a good way to go.
I'd also go with stock type lifters (non adjustable) they can't go out of adjustment, and you said you want it to run well for a long time.
I realize my suggestions here arnt expensive enough for some.
Martin.

Forgot something, you mentioned a brace for the center main, again no real need for your engine, but if it makes you feel better fit a simple strap.
oil pump, can yours be rebuilt? No need for high pressure or volume stuff, late stock pumps are great.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by kirkf

Tubman,

I have to admit, I've never put in a rope seal, which is why I was looking at using a seal I was more familiar with.
I hadn't heard about using only 3 rings on a four ring pistion, but I guess it makes sense.
What type of rings did you use?
And as I asked GreenMonster above, which gasket kit do you prefer?

Thanx
Kirk

Definitely go with three ring pistons (or leave bottom groove empty) and modern rings with the three piece oil rings. You don't need the drag of a 4th ring with the modern technology rings!
There's an old 'urban myth' that says the 4th ring 'stabilizes the piston in the bore'. This is hogwash! Rings float freely in their grooves, so they cannot stabilize anything. Rather, the piston stabilizes the rings, holding them square to the bore so they can seal properly.

[allout]

The books I have are
Flathead Facts by John W Lawson and
Nostalgia by Ron Holleran
Very good books with tons of info.

[Ronnie]

Read on
https://www.google.com/patents/US6199868

R