First Flathead Build

[sharp21]

Hi Gang,

I posted this over on the HAMB, then found this place and thought there might be a little more insight over here.

Picked up this old girl yesterday. Been sitting on the stand for the last 10 years and is frozen up. I'm looking forward to tearing into it!

I don't know much about them but have started reading. Any tips or identification would be appreciated.

[JSeery]

After you get it taken apart, first thing is to check the block for damage, such as cracks. If it appears ok visually, the next set is to have it pressure tested. Flatheads often have hidden cracks and you want to spend the least amount of money possible until you verify you have a good base to work with. Welcome to the Barn and the world of flathead Fords!

Disassembly can sometimes be a challenge if you are not familiar with the engine, so ask away if you have questions.

[marko39]

it is a 49-53 engine (48 -53 truck) and looks like truck heads on it.

[Tim Ayers]

Going just by the heads and water pumps and crank pulley, it's a truck engine (RT-means truck), but that doesn't mean anything with this series motor. Parts get mixed and matched over the years.

First suggestion is to get a good book about these engines. One of the many examples is Tardel's & Bishop's great book. It has an excellent chapter about tear down.

Since you are not familiar with these, take plenty of picts and clearly label what and where you took parts off from.

My best advise is to go slow, use PLENTY of penetrating oil before turning any bolt and either purchase or borrow the proper tools to remove the valve train.

Put a bunch of cardboard & newspaper down under the motor for tearing one down in a messy job.

Regarding stuck pistons. I've had good luck squirting a 50/50 mix of ATF & acetone into the bores 2x or 3x's a day. Work the crank bolt back and forth each time. If that doesn't free it up, I've used a piece of wooden baseball bat blank to knock the pistons out.

Once torn down, it will need to be pressure tested first. If that checks out, have it cleaned and then mag tested. After it passes these two tests, you're good to go with the rebuild.

[chap52]

Welcome aboard Sharp21. You will find LOTS of info here learn to use the Search and Advanced Search on this forum because your question may have already been addressed. I would do the 50/50 soak before tearing it down and have the block pressure tested as advised. Some of those cracks can be repaired. Better to address them now than later.There are a bunch of You Tube posts on flatheads. Get you a Ford repair manual usually available online.
Below is a site to inspire you. Scroll down the pages of flathead photos and when you see a play arrow, crank up your computer and enjoy the adventure.
Just remember that no question is a stupid question and it is YOUR engine. Chap

http://gocatspeedshop.com/

[Ol' Ron]

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My only question is: what do you plan to do with the engine after ti's rebuilt? One thing you should know is, internally their all the same, only the Mecury has a longer stroke. Different water pumps and Bell housing allow you to install it into most old Fords quite easy.. Yes, welcome here on the Barn.
Gramps

[marko39]

It may have a stuck valve or three. Pull heads and check valves. Good time to oil Pistons.

[alanwoodieman]

start soaking the pistons with a 50/50 mixture of acetone and atf, collect or borrow the necessary tools to pull this engine apart. valve bar, valve puller are the tow most important tools and post a general location-Hey there may be other flathead nuts around you that are up for a challenge and can help you. Good luck and welcome to the barn!!!

[deuce_roadster]

It looks as if the heads have already been off. I hope when you take them off there isn't something bad waiting for you. Many cracks can be repaired depending on where they are. Good advice re 50/50 acetone/atf mix, and be patient. I hope you have a usable block, as they are getting harder to find. Good luck and welcome.

[19Fordy]

When you rebuild it don't throw anything away.

[marko39]

Is that a head bolt in the temp. Sender hole? Hope it's not threaded in.

[leon bee]

And you need a BIG rag bag. I've noticed these engines go through a lot more rags than other stuff I work on. Dam hard on your shop wardrobe, too.

[leon bee]

My first one, the block was cracked pretty bad. I worried about this, but kept my eyes open and networked. Soon I had 4 good blocks here, been magnafluxed by the machine shop and then pressure tested by me. Point is, there are still good blocks out there even if you have to get lucky a little bit.

[flatford8]

I would have it cleaned and magnafluxed first then pressure test. Baked on crud and rust scale could seal a crack that could rear its ugly head after you re-build it. Or pressure test it twice.In my area a shop cleans and mags for a little over a hundred dollars....welcome and good luck!!!......Mark

[mfirth]

Welcome sharp21 ! What are your plans for this flatty ? These guys really know their stuff & this forum helped me A LOT. Vanpelt sale is a GR8 source for charted info, parts etc.
Hope the block is good & that you can enjoy the ride. There's just something about a Ford flathead. mike

[sharp21]

Thanks for all the replies! I definitely came to the right place!

A little bit more background - I've always loved cars. My dad started teaching me to drive at 11 years old ('65 F100, with a mean clutch). I've had a few cool cars and do most of my own work. But I've never tore down and rebuilt a motor. We recently moved and I've got my garage setup, so now is the time!

Put the word out and my buddy found me this motor for a song. I think flatheads are the best looking motor going so count myself lucky. My primary goal here is to built it, learn something, and get it running on the stand. At that point I may sell/trade up into something else, or get the next piece of my future hot rod and keep building.

You guys have keen eyes; the heads were pulled already. History is that it was purchased, heads and intake pulled for inspection, then they moved to a different project. It sat on the stand in the shop for the past 10 years.

I'm going to start removing parts, free up the pistons, finish the teardown, and send it for the testing you guys recommend. Will make sure to label everything and promise I won't throw anything out!

Appreciate the input

[alanwoodieman]

after the rebuild you need to hunt up a 48/52 pick up and build that to put the motor in. my 49

[big job]

A box of zip lock bags mark everything on the bag as to where it come from like no.1
exhaust & intake. Mark each rod where it come from. Everything in order, All for
examination whether you use them or not. You will defiantly need a cam bearing
remover / installer tool, valve guide pry bar remover won't hurt either about all venders
have those. Seeing your going to do most yourself, remove crank clean & clean all
insert shells reassemble one by one with plastigage thats cheap enough, JUST to find out
where you are at, clearance wise. You may also want to buy a cylinder ridge remover
if its got any kind of ridge up top. Another tip cut a plastic barrel in half put block in
barrel a step ladder with diesel with small hose on top of ladder, parts brush and go for it
because if it come to machine work, they do not want greasy things coming in. These
are only my suggestions. Oh don't forget to read all insert bearings, they usually are
marked to tell you if anybodys been in there before. Remember there's nothing special
about these to the machine shop eyes, they go by the numbers with micrometers and
such......sam

[rotorwrench]

The L-head V8 is a simple motor. The first one I tore down was a real education. It was obvious that it was simple but it was also obvious that that simple valve train was frozen solid in the block. I lost my first home made horse shoe clip puller to a junk salvage guy that was given free range to haul off scrap when I was going to A&P school. That big 1.25" bar was 5 feet long and was tapered down to a point on one end with a slight S-curve to the tip end. I could hook into the clip holes and pry even the stiffest ones out. I miss that thing. I have All Power tools and an old KD Tool valve puller that do the job now.

Take your time with the pistons. If they aren't too rusty, you can drive them out. If they look like cauliflower with corrosion then sometimes they have to be broken out. A carefully worked hole saw can get the break out process started. It can be a lot of work for nothing if the block turns out to be bad but it is a challenge that most mechanics should experience at least once in their life.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by alanwoodieman

after the rebuild you need to hunt up a 48/52 pick up and build that to put the motor in. my 49

I really like that!

Great tip on the hole saw. I had an old timer give me an interesting tip the other day for breaking things free; Drill out a sparkplug and thread in a zerk fitting. Put it into the TDC piston and pump it up! Says its worked for him a few times.

I've got a parts cleaner and plan on cleaning everything as soon as it comes off the block.

[Ol' Ron]

Be carfull about removing stuck pistons, you can crack the cylinder walls. How do I know that /??????

[mfirth]

Ron, you crack me up...LOL...pun intended. Read all of your posts. mike

[Terranova]

I was gonna say something similar to big job yesterday but then I assumed you'd done this before.

Keep everything in order and organized, oriented the way it came out of the engine, for balance sake.

If you have enough room in your garage/shop put down a piece of cardboard on a bench and label everything. You can even punch screws/bolts through so they don't move if it gets bumped.



Label your crank caps.
Label/number your pistons and keep their caps attached with the same bolts. Put an arrow on top of them to know which way the front of the engine is.
Baggie and sharpie label everything else.

[19Fordy]

Do not dip your block in a solution that
will dissolve the front and rear main seal retainers.
I think they are made of zinc alloy,not steel. Also, be sure to number all your main bearing caps BEFORE you remove them. Same with rod caps.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Do not dip your block in a solution that
will dissolve the front and rear main seal retainers.
I think they are made of zinc alloy,not steel. Also, be sure to number all your main bearing caps BEFORE you remove them. Same with rod caps.

Retainers should be removed before cleaning, no?

[Terranova]

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Take lots of pics. For us and for you!

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Terranova

Take lots of pics. For us and for you!

Will do!

Here are a few of unloading and getting bolted to the stand. It's still on the ground but I'm planning for liftoff today!

[sharp21]

Finally got it up on the stand and opened up. The heads and intake were only held on by a few finger tight bolts.

Yup, looks like a project!

[sharp21]

And a shot of the shop for good measure

[tubman]

I'm sure you noticed it has adjustable lifters. It may also have an aftermarket cam.It looks pretty clean, so maybe they can be reused. Looks like a good score to me. Just try to keep the lifters with their original lobes until you're sure what you have.

[leon bee]

You get one of those valve gear bars yet? Looks like there wasn't anybody living in the valley there.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by leon bee

You get one of those valve gear bars yet? Looks like there wasn't anybody living in the valley there.

Not yet. After those pics were taken I’ve been spent all my time offshore in Mexico. I travel a lot so it won’t be a fast project.

I did see the adjustable lifters. Will make sure everything is kept in order when tearing ‘er down


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[sharp21]

A little progress.

First, I had to reorganize my wrenches so they weren’t all tucked in a dusty old toolbox!


Then today I pulled the pan.






The sludge is nice and thick! Rods look straight though.



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[Fortunateson]

I'm going to be doing something similar. One bank had water enter from a leaky roof via heads without spark plugs. I've been soaking in ATF and acetone. So far no movement. I thought I might flip it over, remove the pan, oil pump, and then the crank. I should be able to tap on the con rods to get some movement. Yes? Don't want to hijack but thought it might pertinent.

[RalphM]

That shop is waay too neat, you’ll have to get that disheveled look or people won’t believe your working on a flathead!

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by RalphM

That shop is waay too neat, you’ll have to get that disheveled look or people won’t believe your working on a flathead!

My wife parks there when I’m out of town working. The cleaner I keep it the less I have to hear about it!


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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

I'm going to be doing something similar. One bank had water enter from a leaky roof via heads without spark plugs. I've been soaking in ATF and acetone. So far no movement. I thought I might flip it over, remove the pan, oil pump, and then the crank. I should be able to tap on the con rods to get some movement. Yes? Don't want to hijack but thought it might pertinent.

This is what the book I’m working from offers:


I’m definitely not reusing the pistons but will reuse the rods if I can. I may soak it first then try to punch them out.


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[rotorwrench]

It will be a big clean up chore after you disassemble that thing but it is nice to start a day working in a clean environment. It's definitely easier to find the tools anyway.

I can clean the shop one day and a customer comes in on the next with his helicopter and blows all the crap from the outside into the shop. Its a never ending battle.

[Fortunateson]

Does the book have a title or did I miss that?

[Tim Ayers]

Let me put it this way, get them out by any means necessary. You can get brand new 8BA rods from Tardel and SF Flatheads for $225. You'd be hard pressed to get current rods reconditioned for that price.

Don't waste your efforts if they are giving you are hard time. Use the red wrench and cut them out. Same with valves. Believe me, I try to save what ever I can, but then it comes down to time and effort.

I've found a baseball bat blank (can be found online for under $30) is the perfect sized dowel for knocking pistons out of the bore.

In the past six months I've torn down five motors. One came apart like it was made yesterday. One had to have everything torched out. No rhyme or reason for it. I have all the proper tools to boot.

Get them out and move on.

[Ol' Ron]

After pressure testing, have the block bake cleaned. This would be an ideal time to have the block decked and bored, valve job. Then all you have to do is put it together, keeping your wife very happy.A happy wife is almost as important as a well running Flathead.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Fortunateson

Does the book have a title or did I miss that?

There ya go



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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

After pressure testing, have the block bake cleaned. This would be an ideal time to have the block decked and bored, valve job. Then all you have to do is put it together, keeping your wife very happy.A happy wife is almost as important as a well running Flathead.

Ain’t that the truth!

Question about pressure testing; my book shows a kit from speedway to do the test. Is that something you guys have, and normally run the test yourself?

I don’t mind buying it as I’m enjoying myself and think I’ll build another after this, but don’t want to waste the coin if this can also be done at the shop


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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Let me put it this way, get them out by any means necessary. You can get brand new 8BA rods from Tardel and SF Flatheads for $225. You'd be hard pressed to get current rods reconditioned for that price.

Don't waste your efforts if they are giving you are hard time. Use the red wrench and cut them out. Same with valves. Believe me, I try to save what ever I can, but then it comes down to time and effort.

I've found a baseball bat blank (can be found online for under $30) is the perfect sized dowel for knocking pistons out of the bore.

In the past six months I've torn down five motors. One came apart like it was made yesterday. One had to have everything torched out. No rhyme or reason for it. I have all the proper tools to boot.

Get them out and move on.

Great tip, thanks. I was looking for a brass drift but will check out the bat blanks.

This is my first ever engine build so I’m taking my time to really get to know the internals. But if they refuse to come out I won’t hesitate to chop em up!


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[JSeery]

"Question about pressure testing; my book shows a kit from speedway to do the test. Is that something you guys have, and normally run the test yourself?"

I have the Speedway kit. In my case I felt it took some modification to work the way I wanted. A shop that is familiar with and works on flatheads should have the proper equipment. Check with them.

[sharp21]

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Another quick question; what should I be using to clean the oil like this in my washing bin? A degreaser? Varsol?


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[Fortunateson]

[QUOTE=sharp21;1748497]

There ya go.

Thanks.

[sharp21]

I assume the crank isn’t supposed to be missing a chunk?


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[tubman]

They are all like that. As I understand it, they were cast in groups of four and then broken apart.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by tubman

They are all like that. As I understand it, they were cast in groups of four and then broken apart.

Great, thanks! I had the fellas over last night and they were sure it was shot, but I didn’t think so.


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[sharp21]

Got the oil pump, exhaust manifolds, and bearing caps pulled today.










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[sharp21]

And went a little further... first piston out! What a mess...




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[tubman]

Fun, ain't it!

[sharp21]

Last night turned into a neighbors over, bottle of tequila, engine working kind of night.


Hammered out 4 of the pistons and have the rest soaking.


And I managed to take in a car show as well! Pretty good day. This car is along the lines of what I’d like to build. I guess it’s an A roadster on a 32 style frame?



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[RalphM]

Great progress! And great choice of motor for your future project. Everyone loves a flathead powered Hot Rod!

[Mike in AZ]

Looks like you’re having fun. Floor is getting dirty and oily. And you offer tequila? Keep on havin fun. Good progress. Mike

[Terranova]

Man! What's all the crud in the exhaust ports? One looks like leaves and the other is oddly uniform all the way around the port. ???

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Terranova

Man! What's all the crud in the exhaust ports? One looks like leaves and the other is oddly uniform all the way around the port. ???

The ones on the end are carbon. The one in the middle is rust that came off the manifold.


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[Ol' Ron]

So far, so good. All Flathead cranks have a chunk out of them. Except some 53 cranks that used a different method. Why the rod in the trash??

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

So far, so good. All Flathead cranks have a chunk out of them. Except some 53 cranks that used a different method. Why the rod in the trash??

That’s just where it fell into the oil pan, along with a shower of rusty debris!


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[tubman]

Junior Member

[Ol' Ron]

A word of caution, have the rods cleaned and the wrist pin bushing checked for ware. If over .0015" have them replaced. Now this can be a problem because some shops don't have the proper tools to do this because the bushing have to be waged into the rods. before honing. Fortunately most of the time they don't have to be replaced. Some people just do it because they think it a good idea.

[kegmon]

If you were able to get that oil pump out without much effort, consider yourself lucky! The real fun comes when you start taking the valves out, but yours may be easy. I had to rent a special tool to remove the cam bearings but that wasn't difficult. Highly recommend thermal cleaning the bare block once you get it all torn down. Good Luck!

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by kegmon

If you were able to get that oil pump out without much effort, consider yourself lucky! The real fun comes when you start taking the valves out, but yours may be easy. I had to rent a special tool to remove the cam bearings but that wasn't difficult. Highly recommend thermal cleaning the bare block once you get it all torn down. Good Luck!

Great to know. The pump came out very easily. Unbolted it, a little persuasion with the rubber mallet, and it wiggles right out.


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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

A word of caution, have the rods cleaned and the wrist pin bushing checked for ware. If over .0015" have them replaced. Now this can be a problem because some shops don't have the proper tools to do this because the bushing have to be waged into the rods. before honing. Fortunately most of the time they don't have to be replaced. Some people just do it because they think it a good idea.

Roger that, thanks.

I’m on a job in Cali right now but hope to get home for the weekend and keep wrenching


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[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by sharp21

Roger that, thanks.

I’m on a job in Cali right now but hope to get home for the weekend and keep wrenching


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If in California, try to contact Vern Tardel or San Fran Flatheads.

They were selling NOS french rods for real reasonable money. They are cheaper than getting them reconditioned.

Even if you don't use them, they are good to have. I believe I bought them many years ago when they were selling them for $125 a set. I'm sure the price has gone up since.

[sharp21]

What exactly is involved in reconditioning rods? Blasting and balancing?


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[JSeery]

Originally Posted by sharp21

What exactly is involved in reconditioning rods? Blasting and balancing?


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A lot of checking for straightness, twist, proper sizing, that type of thing.

[Ol' Ron]

The good news is: You very rarely find a bad one. When disassembling an engine i keep the rod sets together along with the crank. This way there is no need to have the assembly re balanced for just a piston replacement. Also if you change cranks the rebalancing is much cheaper. The rods come in balanced sets.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

The good news is: You very rarely find a bad one. When disassembling an engine i keep the rod sets together along with the crank. This way there is no need to have the assembly re balanced for just a piston replacement. Also if you change cranks the rebalancing is much cheaper. The rods come in balanced sets.

I’ve been keeping track of which cylinder they each cane from so I’ll make sure not to mix them up!


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[sharp21]

Victory!




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[sharp21]

Got the drivetrain freed up! Crank is spinning easily by hand and some of the valves are moving. The other appear to be stuck open.

Question. I’m not gonna reuse those valves am I? Any problem with given the open ones a tap with the hammer to free them up?


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[sharp21]

Also, I posted a video on my instagram (@crushedcangarage) but am not sure how to post one here. Any ideas?


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[JSeery]

I almost always cut the valves out of hard to disassemble engines. Makes the whole process easier IMO.

[kegmon]

There's several ways to get the old valves out and there's lots of threads to search on this forum regarding valve removal. Spray the stuck valves with e 50/50 mix of acetone & transmissions fluid and they might free up. I think most of the time folks end up replacing the valve assemblies (Egge is a good source for these).

[tubman]

To post videos here, I have a free account on "YouTube". I post the video there (it is quite easy), and then cut and paste the "YouTube" link into the post I make on here. There are probably other, better ways to do it, but this works for me.

[sharp21]

https://youtu.be/fOu5in8Smhs

Here ya go!


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[tubman]

Glad that worked. It looks like you've got a better place to start than most. Now, hope for no cracks.

[GOSFAST]

Hi "sharp", try to find a shop who will use a block-plate to finish-hone the bores, it's fairly important on these Flathead castings!

Also, make certain you have it pressure-tested, do not rely on "magging" only!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Would also strongly recommend some stainless valves and some bronze-lined guides so there will be no valves "hanging" down the road.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi "sharp", try to find a shop who will use a block-plate to finish-hone the bores, it's fairly important on these Flathead castings!



Also, make certain you have it pressure-tested, do not rely on "magging" only!



Thanks, Gary in N.Y.



P.S. Would also strongly recommend some stainless valves and some bronze-lined guides so there will be no valves "hanging" down the road.

Copy that Gary, thanks. It’s gonna be a mild build with a focus on longevity, so it’s tips like that I’m looking for.

Sean


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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by tubman

Glad that worked. It looks like you've got a better place to start than most. Now, hope for no cracks.

Knock on wood but I’m feeling real good about it so far! I haven’t been able to find any cracks yet.

Not bad for $200!


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[RalphM]

Use a good penetrating oil and then give those stuck valves a tap with a wood block, or brass drift. Should free them up.

[Ziggster]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi "sharp", try to find a shop who will use a block-plate to finish-hone the bores, it's fairly important on these Flathead castings!

Also, make certain you have it pressure-tested, do not rely on "magging" only!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Would also strongly recommend some stainless valves and some bronze-lined guides so there will be no valves "hanging" down the road.

I spoke to my machinist last week about using a block plate, and he laughed, but mine will not be a performance build. Supposed to start machining this week. Fingers crossed.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

I spoke to my machinist last week about using a block plate, and he laughed, but mine will not be a performance build. Supposed to start machining this week. Fingers crossed.

Ziggster:

I've had more bad and expensive machine work done in the past than I care to admit.

Please listen to others here, find another shop. If he doesn't think a torque plate is necessary, what other short cuts is he taking?

[Ziggster]

I'm no expert, and I'm sure having one honed with a toque plate gives piece of mind, but he simply doesn't have one. I trust him based on feedback from those that have used him in the past and I'm comfortable with any potential risk. I found this post here on HAMB, but I'm sure there are others that say the opposite.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...gines.1055001/

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by Ziggster

I'm no expert, and I'm sure having one honed with a toque plate gives piece of mind, but he simply doesn't have one. I trust him based on feedback from those that have used him in the past and I'm comfortable with any potential risk. I found this post here on HAMB, but I'm sure there are others that say the opposite.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...gines.1055001/

I'm no expert either, but I rely I expert opinions. Different builds may require different tools. My motor is at 3 3/8" +.030. That is a big bore. A flathead deck is thin and there is no doubt in mine or my builder's mind that a bore that big with a deck that thin it needs a torque plate.

I pulled a quote from the the thread you copied. I feel a flathead block falls into the same category as a Ford 302 block in terms of this.

Think about it. There is a reason why Ford added 3 more studs to the block when it went to 239 c.i. A cast iron head clamping down on that deck with one big hole and many smaller holes on a thin casting is going to move.



from what I have seen the lighter the block the more it needs a plate. A 302 ford will move enough to mesure but a big block 460 its hard to see. The ones I did we bored without the plate on a rotler bar then put the plate on the 302 pulls around the head bolts about .0015ish big blocks you could berly get .0002

[sharp21]

No progress as such, but just got this in the mail so I’m ready to continue




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[RalphM]

One of these pry bars will come in awful handy when pulling the horseshoe clips as well.
Once the clip is out you can sometimes pry up on valve from bottom, tap down and repeat, using lots of PB blaster.
Or you can get the other tool here and make the job even easier.

[sharp21]

I’m always happy to buy more tools!


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[flatford8]

If you get another motor......keep them separated......they breed like rabbits!!!!!....Mark

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by RalphM

One of these pry bars will come in awful handy when pulling the horseshoe clips as well.
Once the clip is out you can sometimes pry up on valve from bottom, tap down and repeat, using lots of PB blaster.
Or you can get the other tool here and make the job even easier.

The KD valve tool is an excellent edition to anyone's flathead tool arsenal.

[sharp21]

Oil pump drive cover off. Now how to get the idler gear out while the block is on the stand...?



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[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by sharp21

Oil pump drive cover off. Now how to get the idler gear out while the block is on the stand...?



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Get a little pry bar or light duty puller. It's been a while since I've torn down an 8BA motor, but I believe it is just riding on a bushed post in the back of the block.

It may be stuck on from years of oil goop and muck.

[tubman]

"Sharp" - Just a question about an obscure item. Is the oil pump drive cover stamped steel or cast iron? Every Ford car 8BA I've seen had a stamped cover, while the Merc's (admittedly only two) had cast covers. Your's looks cast (maybe because it's a truck engine 8RT)?

[kegmon]

I remember making a 'slide hammer' out of a short piece of all thread (or a long bolt) and some nuts and washers. It just needed to be the same size thread as the idler gear center. It came out pretty easily once I got that rigged up.

[RalphM]

If you don’t want to damage the idler then get a puller. Screw bolt into threaded hole then pull slowly.

P.S. Tubman, I just looked at an 8 RT motor I have torn down, cover plate is stamped.

[sharp21]

Valves! No progress. Can’t get the horseshoe retainers off and can’t get anything going.

I won’t need to reuse any of these will I? Can I just cut the spring then cut the valve stem down low?


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[JSeery]

I just cut the valves to get them out.

[macdonge]

I had the same problems with my teardown. Ended up getting out the plasma torch to cut the springs & valve stems, then pulled the valves out from above (some with the help of a slide hammer) and drove the guides down into the valley. Only way to do it in some cases!


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[kegmon]

This probably isn't the best way but it worked for me. Pry up the spring from the bottom and see if you can't get the 2 little keepers on the valve stem bottom off. If you can, then the valve should just pull out from the top. A little of the aforementioned acetone/trans fluid on the valve guides will help. I was then able to pop the springs out (wear eye protection). After that I tapped the valve guides down and out from the top using the right sized socket and extension.

[marko39]

Originally Posted by kegmon

This probably isn't the best way but it worked for me. Pry up the spring from the bottom and see if you can't get the 2 little keepers on the valve stem bottom off. If you can, then the valve should just pull out from the top. A little of the aforementioned acetone/trans fluid on the valve guides will help. I was then able to pop the springs out (wear eye protection). After that I tapped the valve guides down and out from the top using the right sized socket and extension.

That method works unless the valve is stuck open and has too much tension on the spring.still, these valves are easier to remove than the mushrooms.

[sharp21]

These are mushroom valves. I’m still struggling with this. Am going to break down and buy the clip removal tool today. Will prolly be two weeks before it arrives...




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[RalphM]

That cone shaped piece is not part of the valve, raise it up and the split keeper will fall out of place( may need a little help).

[JSeery]

"These are mushroom valves."

Those are not mushroom valves, the cup part (6534) is just part of the rotator.

[sharp21]

So I need to slide that cup upwards? I’ll give that a try tomorrow


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[sharp21]

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Small wins.


Got the first one out. I leveled up on the fork and gave it a smack with the hammer. That got the keeper to move and the retainers just fell off.

From there I levered out the spring aaaaand.... stuck again!



That’s the valve guide from the top. I tried getting on it with the hammer and an extension but no dice.



That’s it in the inside. I can easily get the fork on it now but as it fully engages there is nothing to lever against. Can’t get it to budge.

I’ve soaked it with 50/50 and am off to work. Will try again tonight


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[JSeery]

Your getting a lesson on how easy some flatheads can be to disassemble!!!!!

A large diameter brass or aluminum rod makes a good drive to get the guides out.

[marko39]

you can now use a crowbar with a block of wood to pry valve out. if you are lucky you wont bend it but i would figure on using new valves anyway.

[GOSFAST]

Just get a "conventional" valve spring compressor, those rotators and locks will come right out.

This is how we install all the valves during the reassembly, with a spring compressor. Ours is air-operated but a hand one will get it done also!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot (again) of the compressor at work, makes life easy.

[19Fordy]

After you remove the lifters, drill 1/8 inch holes in the lifter bores to make adjustment easy.
Would be nice if those are original Johnson adjustable lifters. Don't throw them away.

[RalphM]

And be sure to drill the holes as low as possible so a punch, or drill rod will center in the slot on lifter when adjusting your valves. You’ll see when you finally get one of the lifters out.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by RalphM

And be sure to drill the holes as low as possible so a punch, or drill rod will center in the slot on lifter when adjusting your valves. You’ll see when you finally get one of the lifters out.

I’m going to circle back with you guys when I get to this stage. I’m having trouble getting the guides out still...

I’ve got them soaking and give em a whack with a socket from the top every time I go by, but no joy yet


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[JSeery]

I think a brass or aluminum rod would be a better driver than a socket.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I think a brass or aluminum rod would be a better driver than a socket.

Trouble is finding one. I’ve looked at my usual stops and they don’t carry them.

I’ve got a long socket that I plan on beating to death. Good news is that things are starting to move!


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[JSeery]

LOL. I collect up different size and length rods to use. We have a surplus store that handles stock metal that is a good source.

[tubman]

For stuff like this, I use a place called "ONLINEMETALS.COM". They have "samples" of just about anything you might want in the $3-$10 range. Be careful to keep your orders small enough so you can specify USPS shipping, or the freight charges will kill you.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by tubman

For stuff like this, I use a place called "ONLINEMETALS.COM". They have "samples" of just about anything you might want in the $3-$10 range. Be careful to keep your orders small enough so you can specify USPS shipping, or the freight charges will kill you.

Great tip!


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[rotorwrench]

I use the same guide driver as I use on my Harley 45 flathead guides. It uses 11/32" ID guides too. This is a link to the KD 812 set that has an 11/32" driver size. https://www.ebay.com/itm/K-D-Tools-N...UAAOSws7xc0kQi

The KD 918 valve puller would likely work as well but I use it to pull the complete assemblies after I yank the horse shoe clips out.https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-FOR...EAAOSwL9hc5ciz

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The KD 918 valve puller would likely work as well but I use it to pull the complete assemblies after I yank the horse shoe clips out.https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-FOR...EAAOSwL9hc5ciz

I see what you mean now. I had one complete assembly that pulled out from the top. Next time I’ll get the clip removal tool and do it that way.




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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

After you remove the lifters, drill 1/8 inch holes in the lifter bores to make adjustment easy.
Would be nice if those are original Johnson adjustable lifters. Don't throw them away.

Circling back! Finished the valves yesterday.



And the lifters this morning



Now where am I supposed to drill these holes?


Don’t forget to clean up your tools when finished for the day!



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[JSeery]

"Now where am I supposed to drill these holes?"

The holes are drilled into the lifter bores in the block, not the lifters themselves. The holes need to line up with in recesses in the lifters.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by JSeery

"Now where am I supposed to drill these holes?"



The holes are drilled into the lifter bores in the block, not the lifters themselves. The holes need to line up with in recesses in the lifters.

Gotcha. I take it that is so you can put a pin in there when adjusting so that the lifters don’t just spin in the bore? Makes sense


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[GOSFAST]

Here's a couple shots of the lifter pinning holes!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Mentioned above, drill them as low as possible without breaking through on the edge of the casting. We drill them with a 12" 3/16" bit, all by hand.

[RalphM]

Like this, but I can tell you those solid lifters are real hard to hold and adjust. I put a set my 8BA and it really is a chore to adjust them. if I had it to do again I would go with the hollow ones.

[sharp21]

A little progress, got the bumpstick out.


Just about ready to send to the machine shop. I found a place 20min from the house that has flathead experience.

My next question; I don’t have a parts washer or blast cabinet. What do y’all suggest for parts prep? Paint stripper and varsol? I’d like to reuse as much as possible and also get to know each part well as this is my first rebuild.


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[RalphM]

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Wire wheel does a good job of cleaning off old varnished parts, but do not use it on aluminum.
I once cleaned an entire truck frame with a wire wheel on a drill and a scraper. Ruined the drill motor, but I got it done.

[Tim Ayers]

That cam looks pretty good considering. I'd hit that gunk with a can of cheap brake cleaner over some newspaper.

[sharp21]

I got the engine turning over before tearing it down so feel I started from an easier place than some other projects I looked at.


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[Ziggster]

I had picked up a cheap parts washer about 10 yrs ago on sale and never used it until a few months back. I purchased two 5 gal parts cleaner fluid and couldn't be happier. No mess, cleaned the parts much better than I could have imagined including all brake related stuff. Will use on my banjo rear diff when I tear it down.

This is what I got from Princess Auto here in the great North = Harbor Freight.

https://www.princessauto.com/en/deta...mp/A-p8022392e

https://www.princessauto.com/en/deta...nt/A-p8047490e

[sharp21]

The HF washer can be had for $75 with coupon so I’ll probably do that. Don’t know where I’m gonna set it up though... now that I’ve added an engine stand, hoist, and welding machine space in the shop is getting tight!


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[RalphM]

One word “shelving” heavy duty enough for engine blocks!
No matter how big your shop is, space is always an issue, mine is 40’x50’, but with three cars, and all the equipment, it’s still tight.

[sharp21]

A little off topic, but can somebody help me identify this build?


It’s pretty much exact the direction if like to go. I feel like it’s a 27t, but is it on a custom frame?

There is a metal 23 with turtle deck for sale locally. But are those much smaller than a 27?


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[40cpe]

That is a '26-'27 on a '32 frame.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

That is a '26-'27 on a '32 frame.

Thanks, I love the look and stance. I wasn’t sure of the frame as the grill is out in front of the axle...


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[tubman]

In my opinion, a '23 and a '27 are two different styles. The '27 you show is a good example of a regular hot rod but a '23 can only be used as a "T" bucket; I have never seen one "stretched" like the '27 you show. However, if it's in any kind of shape at all, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. They ain't makin' them anymore. "Trade meat" if nothing more.

Members, please feel free to correct me about a '23 bodied "hot rod"; pictures appreciated.

[sharp21]

I spoke to the machine shop I’m going to use and the prices seem really good! I’m going to put the push on and try to get it dropped off this weekend. Just a few more bits to remove.

With that said, what is this?


Stubborn little bugger.

Also, anyone know the thread size to get this idler gear out?


I think those are the last two pieces to come off. There is a sheared bolt also. Not sure if that needs to be removed or if I can get the ship to do it. They’ll probably get it faster than I will


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[sharp21]

Oh, and should I drill the holes in the lifter note before machining or can it wait til after?


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[Low50s]

I really enjoy watching your progress! I am waiting on my block to come back from the machine shop then I will be doing my rebuild. I’m looking for some adjustable lifters and vintage speed parts

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by sharp21

Oh, and should I drill the holes in the lifter note before machining or can it wait til after?

I would do it before and try to keep the engine clean after it is finished at the machine shop.

[tubman]

The round object in your first picture is the sending unit for the King-Seeley electric oil pressure gauge.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by tubman

The round object in your first picture is the sending unit for the King-Seeley electric oil pressure gauge.

I was thinking pressure gauge. Sure doesn’t want to come off!


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[sharp21]

A little progress. Got the mushroom off


Then got the two sheared bolts drilled out. Damned if I can find my extractor set though...


Next problem. I don’t have a socket that can get onto these cam gear bolts! The small gear is interfering...


And finally, it just occurred to me that I have no idea where to hook the engine lift to, now that it is stripped down!


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[JSeery]

Extractor is not the way to go on a head bolt. Not finding it is most likely a blessing! You break off an extractor and you just complicate the problem and it is highly unlikely it would work anyway. Best method is to weld a nut to it and turn it out that way. The cast iron in the block will not be bothered by the weld and the heat will break the rust bond.

[flatjack9]

There is a lock plate with tabs that bend up to the flats on those bolts. Must tap those down flat. I use a 1/2" 1/4 drive socket to remove those bolts.

[leon bee]

I'm no expert, but get along real well. Try different sockets, you'll find one that gets in there on those bolts. And if you don't have a little MIG welder, well you need one and that broken bolt is your justification.

[sharp21]

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Originally Posted by JSeery

Extractor is not the way to go on a head bolt. Not finding it is most likely a blessing! You break off an extractor and you just complicate the problem and it is highly unlikely it would work anyway. Best method is to weld a nut to it and turn it out that way. The cast iron in the block will not be bothered by the weld and the heat will break the rust bond.

That is great thanks. I don’t have a mig so maybe time to get a little unit... I’ve got a big stick welder but the new garage isn’t wired for it yet.


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[tubman]

About welders; I had a 250 AMP Miller "buzzbox" for years and used it a lot. It was great for building frames, etc., but there was a lot it couldn't do. I eventually ended up buying 220 volt Hobart MIG. I was never particularly enamored with it, but it got me through. A couple of years ago, I became intrigued with the newer, smaller stick welders using Inverter technology, rather than transformer. I ended up buying an Everlast unit from Amazon, so I could have regular arc capabilities, as well as being able to upgrade it to a TIG. What I found was that "regular" arc welders have a lot more capability these days than the old "buzzboxes" did. The main thing is you are able to use both straight and reverse polarity on DC and regular AC. That, and a thorough knowledge of the welding rods available and their properties and intended purposes opened up a whole new world for me. Do you know you can "stickweld" aluminum? You can with the proper welder and rod. The welder, though made in China, is of high quality and quite reasonably priced. I am going to update it to a TIG someday, but the tank, etc. will cost almost as much as the welder did. I hardly use my Hobart at all lately.

[Mart]

You should be able to get to the cam bolts with a small offset ring spanner. Don't know what it would be called there in the usa. Like said above, make sure you've knocked the tabs back first.

I've lifted a bare block before now by bolting an open end spanner (wrench) between the most central inlet manifold bolt holes. big washers under the bolt heads, just bolt the spanner down and lift on the central part of the spanner.



Mart.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Mart

You should be able to get to the cam bolts with a small offset ring spanner. Don't know what it would be called there in the usa. Like said above, make sure you've knocked the tabs back first.

I've lifted a bare block before now by bolting an open end spanner (wrench) between the most central inlet manifold bolt holes. big washers under the bolt heads, just bolt the spanner down and lift on the central part of the spanner.



Mart.

Great tip, thanks! I’ll probably do just that.

For the record I’m from the colonies so am well aware of spammers, shifters, and the like


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[sharp21]

Progress!

Did someone recommend a 12” x 3/16 drill bit? Because that made short work of drilling out the lifter bores!



I also got the cam gear off (using the box spanner).


Next up I’m going to strip the heads. It’s interesting to note the differences between the two sides.





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[sharp21]

Oh and trying to extract the sheared bolts definitely didn’t work. Broke my extractor in two.


This is the kick in the pants I need to get a 220 outlet installed for my welder.


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[sharp21]

Question; the machine shop I’m going to use does a back/shot blast process. I’m going to have them do the block, heads, etc. Should I break down the water pumps and have them do those too?


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[Mart]

What did we say? Don't use an extractor!

Now the machine shop will have to get the stud and half an extractor out.

Unless you got lucky and it came out.

Good luck with the rest of it.

Mart.

[RalphM]

Water pumps will have to be rebuilt so no reason to blast those. If you send them to a rebuilder they will take care of all that.

Heads are built differently because the distributor bolts to the right head front and the oil filter bolts on to the left head on rear.

Do a search there are several Rebuilders of water pumps on the Ford Barn.

[sharp21]

What is this thing and why is it only in one head? One way valve?



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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Mart

What did we say? Don't use an extractor!

Now the machine shop will have to get the stud and half an extractor out.

Unless you got lucky and it came out.

Good luck with the rest of it.

Mart.

I know I know.... I’d already drilled the hole so thought I’d give it a try


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[JSeery]

Originally Posted by sharp21

Oh and trying to extract the sheared bolts definitely didn’t work. Broke my extractor in two.


This is the kick in the pants I need to get a 220 outlet installed for my welder.

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I told you! you didn't lesson did you.

[Mart]

It's a thermostat and there should be on on both sides.

[sharp21]

Finally got this bolt that was in the head to break loose. Turns out all it needed was a gallon of 50/50 and 200 hammer strikes.


And with that the only thing left to remove is the oil pump idler gear in the back of the block. I don’t have a slide hammer so am gonna see if the shop will do that for me.

And now for my next problem: what do I hook my hoist to in order to lift the block?


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[JSeery]

Intake manifold bolts (more than one), bolt holes on the front of the block, etc. Depends on the orientation you want the block in. There are two sets of holes on either side of the timing cover that are not used for anything that can be used if you are wanting to pick it up from the front end. Bellhousing bolt holes in the back if you want to pick it up from than end. So, just depends on how you want it to end up.

[sharp21]

I might just run a strap through the bores and call it a day


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[cmbrucew]

I heard men in Texas pick up flathead blocks like a six pack. Joking


Bruce

[RalphM]

Men in Alaska just pick them up off the floor and throw them in the back of the truck!
Yes, I’ve done it before.

[JSeery]

I did in my younger days, but that's long gone!

[cadillac512]

Block upside down. Run a fan belt (cushion it with a rag) through the center main cap and hook it to your hoist hook.



Terry

[sharp21]

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Not to hijack my own thread, but I’m planning ahead. When the engine is done I’m planning to get a T5, rebuild it, and mate them up. Then I’m thinking of rear end.

Question: should I do an s10 rear for ease of use? Or should I pick up the banjo rear that is available right now locally for $150?

I’m worried that the banjo Rebuild will be more than I want to spend.

Input appreciated


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[JSeery]

An open later model rear end takes some work just to install. Have to have spring mounts and everything (there are bolt in kits). Or you can convert the banjo to open drive, but that requires addition of radius rods. Or you can modify the T5 to bolt up to the torque tube on a banjo. Any way you go requires some work and modification.

[sharp21]

I’m kind of leaning towards an early s10 tranny, driveshaft and rear. Keep it as simple as possible.


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[sharp21]

What exactly is this but on the intake for? I’m having a hell of a time getting it off.


I’m aiming to drop everything off at the machine shop on Friday. Going to get a 3/8” threaded rod with some nuts and washers after work today. Then get the block off the stand and remove the idler gear. That’s the final piece before it’s game time.


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[Mart]

That stud at the front is where the generator bolts on. There's not normally any reason to remove it. The nut should come off, though, of course.

Mart.

[JSeery]

Generator and fan bracket, it is kinda a sandwich affair.

[sharp21]

I’ll keep working on that nut.

In the meantime, time for liftoff!


Got it on a temporary bench


And put together a makeshift slide hammer


That didn’t work, so tried to turn it out using a little bucket


Let’s just say that the bucket list this round. Back to the drawing board



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[Zeke3]

The oil pump idler pulley setup is different on the 8BA from the earlier 32-48 engines. Frank Oddo in, "Ford Flathead V-8 Builder's Handbook 1932-1953," recommends using a drift punch to drive the shaft out from inside the block. George McNicholl in, "How to Build Ford Flathead V-8 Horsepower," recommends using a 3/8 UNC bolt 1 1/2" long and a thick flat washer to pull against using a slide hammer with jaws to pull against the flat washer. Good luck with your project.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Zeke3

The oil pump idler pulley setup is different on the 8BA from the earlier 32-48 engines. Frank Oddo in, "Ford Flathead V-8 Builder's Handbook 1932-1953," recommends using a drift punch to drive the shaft out from inside the block. George McNicholl in, "How to Build Ford Flathead V-8 Horsepower," recommends using a 3/8 UNC bolt 1 1/2" long and a thick flat washer to pull against using a slide hammer with jaws to pull against the flat washer. Good luck with your project.

I’m worried about punching it out as I’d hate to damage it. Is this a part that should be replaced every time?

I’m planning next to make a puller out of a piece of strapping with a few bolts, thread the bolt I have up the middle, and screw it out.

If that doesn’t work I’ll get drastic.


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[flatjack9]

Do yourself a favor and buy a slide hammer. You'd be done by now if you had one.

[Mart]

I don't think you necessarily need to remove it. If it rotates freely with no discernable wobble, and the teeth are in good condition you could leave it in place.

Just my take on it.

Mart.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by Mart

I don't think you necessarily need to remove it. If it rotates freely with no discernable wobble, and the teeth are in good condition you could leave it in place.

Just my take on it.

Mart.

The machine shop is going to bake the block so I’m not sure that leaving it in is ideal.


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[sharp21]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

Do yourself a favor and buy a slide hammer. You'd be done by now if you had one.

The voice of reason...


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[sharp21]

Big day! Got the works dropped off at the shop. I’ll know next week what the actual condition is.

Billy (the son) owns it now, but Ted is still there and he cut his teeth on flatheads. Very happy having them so close to the house

Stay tuned!






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[tubman]

Good luck man! Hopefully, no (or repairable) cracks.

[sharp21]

Moving on!

Getting the pistons separated from the rods. Looks good so far.



Question; reuse the rods or get new?


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[JSeery]

Depends on the condition of the rods. Need to have them checked by the machine shop.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Depends on the condition of the rods. Need to have them checked by the machine shop.

Ready to get checked out



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[Mart]

I'd say some of those pistons might be a bit low on compression.

[sharp21]

Bad news. Machine shop called and says the block is unusable. Lots of cracks with some going into the bores...

Pretty disappointed


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[Terranova]

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Boooooo.
That sucks.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by sharp21

Bad news. Machine shop called and says the block is unusable. Lots of cracks with some going into the bores...

Pretty disappointed

Fairly common but not fun! But you got a lot of experance taking it apart.

[leon bee]

Sharp: That's just what happened to me, I suspect it must be the usual run of things from what I've read. But there are good blocks out there, I know because I found 4 of em. Start asking car guys wherever you see them.

[sharp21]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Fairly common but not fun! But you got a lot of experance taking it apart.

I did. Got some new tools, learned a thing or two. I really felt I was making progress towards the hot rod I’ve always wanted, but will just need to find something else.

I think I’ll clean up / refurb the parts as best I can then sell them off, then track down another project


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[sharp21]

Got everything back


Definitely some bad cracks


But they cleaned everything else up real nice which is great. Will probably part it all out and sell it to fund the next project.





Thanks all for your help. I had a good time.


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[JSeery]

The block will make a good mockup tool while you look for a usable one.

[RKS.PA]

Sharp, how did your machine shop locate the cracks? From your pictures, it's a little hard to see. Since they didn't hot tank or shake and bake it.....might not have worth the expense.....I'm curious how they were able to tell if the cracks were unrepairable.


Probably a stupid question, but consider the source!!

[tubman]

Originally Posted by RKS.PA

Sharp, how did your machine shop locate the cracks? From your pictures, it's a little hard to see. Since they didn't hot tank or shake and bake it.....might not have worth the expense.....I'm curious how they were able to tell if the cracks were unrepairable.


Probably a stupid question, but consider the source!!

I agree. I see some rust damage (that is easily overcome), but no fatal cracks (I do see a "Part Number" crack, but they are no problem.) Perhaps a few more pictures of the actual areas of damage would help. Don't give up so easily.

[Ol' Ron]

I;d want a second opinion on the cracks. There are some new stop leaks, like Morso's ceramic. I heard of some ne stuff, can't remember the name you can leave in the coolant,

[sharp21]

They didn’t photograph well but there was one in a port that was unrepairable and another that went from a port straight into the adjacent bore. And a bunch more besides

It was done by mag particle.


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[Fortunateson]

I know this is an oldish thread but you can sleeve the bore and pin the crack.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by sharp21

They didn’t photograph well but there was one in a port that was unrepairable and another that went from a port straight into the adjacent bore. And a bunch more besides

It was done by mag particle.


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'10 years on a stand, and heads loose'
The old guys often knew what was and wasn't worth their time/money, eh....

[RalphM]

Save all the pieces off the block, plugs,caps, breather tube,etc.
Too bad i’m so far away or I’d let you come pick one of mine out. Well if anybody’s making around trip to Alaska let me know.