The Ford Barn

chopo · 06-30-2013, 04:43 PM

i removed the front side gear cover trying to track down a noise coming from the center of my engine, before i started the car i noticed the timing gear was able to be moved very easily with my finger. i could wiggle the gear a lil better thana 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. is this normal?

larrys40 · 06-30-2013, 04:53 PM

Absolutely not... the gear should be fairly tight... with maybe 3-5 thousands movement between the crank gear and cam gear on a good gear. If your movement is the gear for and aft (front to back) either the gear is loose on the camshaft or the front timing gear spring and plunger should be replaced. Please note that I have also seen engines that were way off on the centering of the line bore of the crank when the Babbitt was machined.. etc., which can also have this problem. There are oversize gears available if needed.

If there are teeth off the gear the oil pan will have to be pulled to clean out the shavings and gear debris. An extra step but a necessary one.

Good luck!
Larry Shepard

chopo · 06-30-2013, 04:56 PM

the gears show no wear. just by pushing on the gear with the timing pin and my finger on the inside the gear can be moved /wobbled quite a bit

larrys40 · 06-30-2013, 05:13 PM

It sounds like it's moving for and aft... (front to back) correct? if so then replace the front timing gear spring and camshaft plunger. A little grease on the plunger before replacing the cover is recommended. Of course a skim of RTV on a new cover gasket and mating surface of the oil pan gasket.
Larry

chopo · 06-30-2013, 05:42 PM

it really isnt front to back movement. more like it doesnt fit tight on the end of the cam?

Patrick L. · 06-30-2013, 05:54 PM

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It sounds as if you have a 2 piece gear. They are famous for their noise. Most would recommend replacing it.

Larry Seemann · 06-30-2013, 05:58 PM

There is a big nut that holds the cam gear onto the cam shaft. It takes a special wrench that few people own to tighten it properly so you see a lot of those nuts with cold chisel marks on them and a lot of those nuts aren't tight and the gear acts like yours - kind of wiggles around. Unfortunately you'll have to remove the timing gear cover to tighten it.

Bob C · 06-30-2013, 07:29 PM

Could have one of these like Patrick said.

Bob

Terry, NJ · 06-30-2013, 07:55 PM

OK Not to hijack the thread, but what's wrong with the gear in the picture? I just installed one in an engine I'm working on.
Chopo, I would replace that fiber gear. If it's been running in that condition, more than likely, it's been damaged and as long as its apart....... As an aside, I once proposed a question, What part is most likely to fail in a morel A engine? You guessed it! The camshaft gear!
Terry

Bob C · 06-30-2013, 08:19 PM

The fiber gear likes to come loose from the metal center, not a good setup.

Bob

KGBnut · 06-30-2013, 08:52 PM

I had one of those two-piece gears. It left me stranded on the side of the road just this past March. The fiber completely spun off the metal carrier. I was getting the faux rod-knock sound for a few weeks before it broke.

It is so easy to replace that gear, I would recommend that you just go ahead and do it. I replaced mine with an aluminum one. While you are in there, make sure to take care of the plunger and spring. Oh, and that special wrench that Larry mentioned is worth the money.

Purdy Swoft · 06-30-2013, 09:04 PM

I've never been able to get over five or six years of mostly every day use with a new one of the fiber gears like pictured above.. The cogs of the metal center work themselves loose in the fiber part of the gear. The gear gets wobbly and after a while strips. The engine then looses all compression and quits. I was lucky to coast home the last time one stripped.

columbiA · 06-30-2013, 09:10 PM

I replaced the T gear in my A a while back.The old fiber gear was loose like yours.A preveous owner had not tightenen the cam nut tight enough & while the gear looked OK,it had been working on the dowel holes in the gear & they were wollowed out.I replaced with an alum gear.The crank gear was OK.You dont have to even be able to see the timing mark on the crank gear.Line up the timing dimple on cam gear with RH edge of the key way in crank shaft & it will be spot on.RH edge of key way is when you are looking from front ,or on drivers side of car.Looking carefully behind the oil slinger you will see the timing mark.The alum was just as quiet as a fiber gear.

shookie · 07-01-2013, 10:49 AM

If you are planning on any type of tightening, for the cost, replace the timing
gear. You will have to take the timing cover, etc. off anyway, so replace ......

Purdy Swoft · 07-01-2013, 12:10 PM

I use the new hex style cam nut, it is easy to remove and replace, also makes retorqueing easy.

larrys40 · 07-01-2013, 12:21 PM

Chopo,
Most of the aluminum hub with fiber outer gear are "Cloyes" gears. They are a name brand timing gear but in this case are not good for the Model A. As others have said.. they do become loose either because of use or expansion and contraction of disimmilar materials. I use and have had no trouble with a good quality mascerated gear. I have seen where cam nuts came loose and the gear itself backout off from the cam and wore the pins into the back of the cam gear thus changing the valve timing....Stuff like that keeps you on your game!
Important things is to use a good quality gear and do a thorough proper job of replacement/tightening,cleanout, and resealing everything up. Good luck!

Larry Shepard

06-30-2013, 04:43 PM	#1
chopo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Northumberland Posts: 193	fiber timing gear i removed the front side gear cover trying to track down a noise coming from the center of my engine, before i started the car i noticed the timing gear was able to be moved very easily with my finger. i could wiggle the gear a lil better thana 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. is this normal? __________________ www.jalopyshowdown.com dont scare me i poop easy

06-30-2013, 04:53 PM	#2
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: fiber timing gear Absolutely not... the gear should be fairly tight... with maybe 3-5 thousands movement between the crank gear and cam gear on a good gear. If your movement is the gear for and aft (front to back) either the gear is loose on the camshaft or the front timing gear spring and plunger should be replaced. Please note that I have also seen engines that were way off on the centering of the line bore of the crank when the Babbitt was machined.. etc., which can also have this problem. There are oversize gears available if needed. If there are teeth off the gear the oil pan will have to be pulled to clean out the shavings and gear debris. An extra step but a necessary one. Good luck! Larry Shepard

06-30-2013, 04:56 PM	#3
chopo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Northumberland Posts: 193	Re: fiber timing gear the gears show no wear. just by pushing on the gear with the timing pin and my finger on the inside the gear can be moved /wobbled quite a bit __________________ www.jalopyshowdown.com dont scare me i poop easy

06-30-2013, 05:13 PM	#4
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: fiber timing gear It sounds like it's moving for and aft... (front to back) correct? if so then replace the front timing gear spring and camshaft plunger. A little grease on the plunger before replacing the cover is recommended. Of course a skim of RTV on a new cover gasket and mating surface of the oil pan gasket. Larry

06-30-2013, 05:42 PM	#5
chopo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Northumberland Posts: 193	Re: fiber timing gear it really isnt front to back movement. more like it doesnt fit tight on the end of the cam? __________________ www.jalopyshowdown.com dont scare me i poop easy

06-30-2013, 05:54 PM	#6
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: fiber timing gear Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It sounds as if you have a 2 piece gear. They are famous for their noise. Most would recommend replacing it.

06-30-2013, 05:58 PM	#7
Larry Seemann Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spokane, WA. Posts: 496	Re: fiber timing gear There is a big nut that holds the cam gear onto the cam shaft. It takes a special wrench that few people own to tighten it properly so you see a lot of those nuts with cold chisel marks on them and a lot of those nuts aren't tight and the gear acts like yours - kind of wiggles around. Unfortunately you'll have to remove the timing gear cover to tighten it. __________________ Larry Seemann

06-30-2013, 07:55 PM	#9
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: fiber timing gear OK Not to hijack the thread, but what's wrong with the gear in the picture? I just installed one in an engine I'm working on. Chopo, I would replace that fiber gear. If it's been running in that condition, more than likely, it's been damaged and as long as its apart....... As an aside, I once proposed a question, What part is most likely to fail in a morel A engine? You guessed it! The camshaft gear! Terry

06-30-2013, 08:19 PM	#10
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,741	Re: fiber timing gear The fiber gear likes to come loose from the metal center, not a good setup. Bob

06-30-2013, 08:52 PM	#11
KGBnut Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Southwestern Connecticut Posts: 931	Re: fiber timing gear I had one of those two-piece gears. It left me stranded on the side of the road just this past March. The fiber completely spun off the metal carrier. I was getting the faux rod-knock sound for a few weeks before it broke. It is so easy to replace that gear, I would recommend that you just go ahead and do it. I replaced mine with an aluminum one. While you are in there, make sure to take care of the plunger and spring. Oh, and that special wrench that Larry mentioned is worth the money. __________________ Style beats speed any day, and with a lot fewer tickets.

06-30-2013, 09:04 PM	#12
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: fiber timing gear I've never been able to get over five or six years of mostly every day use with a new one of the fiber gears like pictured above.. The cogs of the metal center work themselves loose in the fiber part of the gear. The gear gets wobbly and after a while strips. The engine then looses all compression and quits. I was lucky to coast home the last time one stripped.

06-30-2013, 09:10 PM	#13
columbiA Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 1,746	Re: fiber timing gear I replaced the T gear in my A a while back.The old fiber gear was loose like yours.A preveous owner had not tightenen the cam nut tight enough & while the gear looked OK,it had been working on the dowel holes in the gear & they were wollowed out.I replaced with an alum gear.The crank gear was OK.You dont have to even be able to see the timing mark on the crank gear.Line up the timing dimple on cam gear with RH edge of the key way in crank shaft & it will be spot on.RH edge of key way is when you are looking from front ,or on drivers side of car.Looking carefully behind the oil slinger you will see the timing mark.The alum was just as quiet as a fiber gear.

07-01-2013, 10:49 AM	#14
shookie Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Addison,Il. Posts: 33	Re: fiber timing gear If you are planning on any type of tightening, for the cost, replace the timing gear. You will have to take the timing cover, etc. off anyway, so replace ......

07-01-2013, 12:10 PM	#15
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: fiber timing gear I use the new hex style cam nut, it is easy to remove and replace, also makes retorqueing easy.

07-01-2013, 12:21 PM	#16
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: fiber timing gear Chopo, Most of the aluminum hub with fiber outer gear are "Cloyes" gears. They are a name brand timing gear but in this case are not good for the Model A. As others have said.. they do become loose either because of use or expansion and contraction of disimmilar materials. I use and have had no trouble with a good quality mascerated gear. I have seen where cam nuts came loose and the gear itself backout off from the cam and wore the pins into the back of the cam gear thus changing the valve timing....Stuff like that keeps you on your game! Important things is to use a good quality gear and do a thorough proper job of replacement/tightening,cleanout, and resealing everything up. Good luck! Larry Shepard