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Old 07-02-2019, 11:15 PM   #1
Chris Haynes
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Default The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I got this E Mail from Terry this evening.

Hello to All,

2 July 2019

Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.

New Engine

This project started in 2007 and updates were sent by Email from April 2010 until May 2015 when it stalled because of sky-rocketing cost and lack of quality control. Previous updates can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

I apologize to the many people that requested to be on the update list after May 2015. I did not respond because the project stalled. You are now on the list.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

Another way to describe the new engine is to say that the exterior looks like a Model A engine however the interior has 1970 engine technology. Changes include 5 main bearings, counterweights on both sides of connecting rods, 2 inch diameter insert main and connecting rod bearings that can be bought at any auto parts store, oil pressure to mains, rods, and camshaft, streamlined intake ports, hard exhaust seats, thicker (3/16") water jacket wall on the water inlet side, Model B water deflector, added material between exhaust ports and cylinder, replaceable cam bearings, rear main seal that is available at any bearing supply house, and many other things.

The good news is that the Model A engine project has been resurrected and is now alive and well.

Cylinder Block

In January 2019, I received a phone call regarding the availability of the new engine, and sadly replied with the news that the project was stalled. The caller just had a newly rebuilt Model A engine fail, and in our conversation, he mentioned that he knew someone that was having replacement cylinder blocks manufactured in China, and asked if I would be interested. I replied that I was interested and wanted to learn more.

I learned that the factory manufactures cylinder blocks, heads, and even short blocks for many applications. I have a copy of their brochure and their clients include Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, Land Rover, and many others.

This factory is utilizing "state of the art" processes and quality assurance that will ensure the new Model A engine will have an exterior appearance as the original and machining tolerances similar to modern manufactured engines.

Where this project started and stalled as a one-man project, I am now working with others that have the same enthusiasm as I.

As a means of getting started, both an original cylinder block and the one good casting of the new design from Lodi Iron Works were sent to the factory along with all of my SolidWorks models. The factory measured the original cylinder block to create a SolidWorks model of the exterior and used my SolidWorks models for the interior and machining, and replied with a favorable cost estimate.

Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft

These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block. SolidWorks models have been provided and quotes from the same factory that committed to manufacture the cylinder block have been requested.

One huge advantage of working with a single factory in China is that they are responsible for everything from raw materials to finished product, When this project was active here, many factories would have been involved, and I can imagine a lot of finger pointing.

Next Update

The next update will be after preliminary bids are received for the rest of the parts and a schedule can be worked out. The initial quote for the cylinder block took less than a month, and I am hopeful that the next quote will also be short.





At this time we are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates on a timely basis.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Interesting! Terry is known for his quality work.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Look forward to hearing more progress. Single sourcing block, crank and rods is a huge advantage.
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Old 07-03-2019, 06:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!
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Old 07-04-2019, 03:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

We shipped 69.1 million tons of iron ore in April.
You'd think someone could make a few blocks out of it.
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Old 07-04-2019, 07:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!

I have 3 foundries here very close to me that want to cast them. the problem I am having here right now is that foundries are all very busy. But after one foundry owner called me yesterday to discuss this, and other things, I believe we are a couple of weeks away from a block using my new process. I also have a foundry that does automatic molding that is interested but it would mean making metal tooling, which I wanted to avoid.


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Old 07-04-2019, 03:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Now that this concept seems to be nearing availability, how many of you are scheming to build a much higher horsepower version? What are you considering?
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I have 3 foundries here very close to me that want to cast them. the problem I am having here right now is that foundries are all very busy. But after one foundry owner called me yesterday to discuss this, and other things, I believe we are a couple of weeks away from a block using my new process. I also have a foundry that does automatic molding that is interested but it would mean making metal tooling, which I wanted to avoid.


Tod
Now THAT is GOOD NEWS!
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Now THAT is GOOD NEWS!

Yes. I will report back after my meeting next week.



I will probably cast a 3-main iron block, a 3-main aluminum, and a 5 main aluminum this month.



Don't look for it in this thread as I don't want to hi-jack the thread.



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Old 07-04-2019, 05:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I would like to be able to build a good higher HP reliable engine for serious touring.


If I have a choice, I would much rather BUY AMERICAN and support our own industries.


Our country has suffered a great loss of basic manufacturing industries and for a strong independent country, we need to have the ability to manufacturer ourselves and not have to depend on offshore sources.


This is my opinion and I am sure others may disagree.


Chris W.
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Old 07-05-2019, 09:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

It should be easy for the Chinese to cast them. About 15 years ago, I was working with Tractors, specifically Ford 8N, The old Central Tractor, in Iowa, was selling brand new engines from China for under $3000. That's NEW! Not rebuilt! So, it is entirely possible. It is also possible that foundries in the US are not up to casting something like a block. NAFTA and other "Free Trade" deals have stripped us of our skills.
Terry




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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
So, did I read that right - the new engines will be done in China? There's nothing wrong with that if no one in your own country can do them. I recall reading that Tod couldn't find a foundry capable of dong the job properly.
I am going to continue keeping an eye on this project!
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Old 07-05-2019, 03:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

[QUOTE=Terry, NJ;1774447 ............brand new engines from China for under $3000. That's NEW! Not rebuilt! So, it is entirely possible. It is also possible that foundries in the US are not up to casting something like a block. NAFTA and other "Free Trade" deals have stripped us of our skills.
Terry[/QUOTE]

Terry you are spot -on that plus the EPA got a bit out of control. By design. Part of 'the Plan.' But that's another story.............
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Old 07-05-2019, 08:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Let's really go back in time! Remember Crosely? Powell Crosely came up with a method for stamping the engine blocks. Basically, like stacking a bunch of head gaskets till you had an engine block. This is doable! The trouble was when Croseley's started delaminating and rather than come up with a solution, they started casting their blocks. Here we are,80 years hence, new materials, new methods, new adhesives, etc. It can be done!
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWPASADENA View Post
I would like to be able to build a good higher HP reliable engine for serious touring.


If I have a choice, I would much rather BUY AMERICAN and support our own industries.


Our country has suffered a great loss of basic manufacturing industries and for a strong independent country, we need to have the ability to manufacturer ourselves and not have to depend on offshore sources.


This is my opinion and I am sure others may disagree.

Chris W.

I fully understand this but let's think about it. We have the same situation here in Australia - in fact since GM and Ford closed local production, I know people who will not buy either brand because of the way the closures affected our local manufacturing. If every country took the same attitude and their people only bought locally made stuff, what would be the end game for doing so? IMO, because of the smaller scale runs, manufactured good would be more expensive all over the world, the world economy would slow, then, well, we know where that leads.
Everybody thinks that their own country - the one where they grew up and where they feel most comfortable is the best. I think they are all correct and we ignor that to our peril.
Nothing is as simple as we first think.
I have diverged from Model As so I'll leave it at that!
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:50 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Why did this turn into a political discussion. The post is about a 5 main bearing engine block. It would be nice to keep it about the engine and what it can do and acheive.
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:15 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry, I guess I never knew that about the Crosley engines.

Doesn't sound like a very good idea. I don't think I'd want to be involved with that technique.

Usually the old tried and true methods come back to prevail
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Morning...All the tried and true methods were once cutting edge and thought to be damn near impossible...just think of Henry figuring out the flat head block as a one piece casting! Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-06-2019, 11:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Good Morning...All the tried and true methods were once cutting edge and thought to be damn near impossible...just think of Henry figuring out the flat head block as a one piece casting! Ernie in Arizona
Yes and to think they did a lot of it under cover in the old Greenfield Village shops, that project was kept pretty secret away from prying eyes.

Ford turned the automotive world on it's ear and everybody was trying to play catch up and imitate what Ford had accomplished. The man was a genius.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Yes and to think they did a lot of it under cover in the old Greenfield Village shops, that project was kept pretty secret away from prying eyes.

Ford turned the automotive world on it's ear and everybody was trying to play catch up and imitate what Ford had accomplished. The man was a genius.
If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Because He Could!



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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
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Old 07-07-2019, 08:46 AM   #21
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry

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Why did this turn into a political discussion. The post is about a 5 main bearing engine block. It would be nice to keep it about the engine and what it can do and acheive.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Unfortunately, To ignore the politics of the situation is to ignore the 800 Lb gorilla in the room! I don't like it either, in fact I hate it, but I don't ignore it. Phoney exaggerated claims of "Pollution", and cries for relief , forced a relentless Govt to create a huge remedial agency. And the NIMBYS were a big part of forcing the "Free Trade" agreements through. Someone once described the situation as being like a glass of water. We poured out the glass (That is we cleaned up the worst of the old pollution from the 1930s, 40s and 50s) Now were going after the last few drops.

Terry
Exactly..............Like it or not what Terry said is the truth.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?
Maybe because 'Clara' sounded too 'slow'???

That Dahlinger lady that went after Henry was nothing but a gold digger. I regarded her as a low life from the histories that I read..
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:32 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Henry Ford was a smart man but he had a knack for finding other smart men to make his "minds eye" ideas work. Charlie Sorensen and an author put together a book from the daily diaries that he kept while working for Henry for the 40 years he was there. It has a lot of info from the development of the model T through the model A and eventually, the V8. Charlie didn't design the model A engine either but he knew how to pattern it and cast it so he and a lot of other men put it all together. One of Henry's employees of the Ford aircraft division figured out how to get the 40-horse power out of it when it was not doing so under the original design.

Henry Ford's true genius, if you want to call it that, was as an industrialist with an eye toward complete consumerism. If you make it good and make a lot of them, the price can come down to where it will still be profitable. The more you make, the lower the price. Pay your workers well and they will be driving your new products just as well. You can call it political discussion but what it boils down to is that it would be nearly impossible to replicate what Henry did in this day and age. Too many factors have changed such as labor unions and government regulations about how to build an automobile. Just these two factors alone stifle consumerism. It's not impossible to make a profit building cars these days but just look at the prices and you can see that "every man" may not be able to afford a new Ford.

A 5-main motor will open a new chapter in the history of the model A but we won't know how it works out until folks decide they want to go that route. The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration but it may bring in some unknown reliability factor that attracts customers to it. It certainly wouldn't hurt a thing. A lot of folks just make a hot rod out of the old A anyway if they want to go faster.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-08-2019 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Evening all...For me, Terry's new 5 main engine might just be what gets younger folks to play with Model 'A's. If they run well and are a bit longer lasting and able to have just a bit more power and not leak on the floor...and still sound like Model 'A's...we might have 'A's running for another 90 years...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-14-2019, 06:11 AM   #26
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If he was a genius, why did he name his speed boat after his mistress?




sex sells.............!
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Will this new technology address vibration
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

An inline four of this size would need a balance shaft to be totally smooth. You have to draw the line somewhere or you will end up with a totally different animal. I would be happy with a new B block and only three mains, but I definitely respect Mr. Burtz for stepping up to the plate and trying to make his vision of a better A engine a reality.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,
I wish you all the best in this effort. This is a huge undertaking and with a few breaks you could provide a path forward for those of us who want to modernize the Model A without butchering it. Good stuff!
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

Dodge
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hello Terry, great to hear you are back on deck with this project. It must be 5 or 6 years since we visited you from New Zealand and you showed us your projects. I will be thrilled to buy one of your new blocks, and head too if you make that. Will the crankshaft go ahead too, or is it too early to say?
SAJ in NZ
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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The old Fords weren't designed to go much more than 60 to 65 mph in original configuration.
You have an “original” babbitted Model A that will do 65 mph?

Consider it a unicorn!
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

This is not an update.

Thanks to all for your comments, questions, and encouragement.

I will try to answer a few questions.

Great to hear that the project is back on. Have you considered copying the original engine block with all of the defects, for the Purists in the club?
Regards, Ron


Yes, a goal is to make the purists happy. The cylinder block copied was manufactured after April, 1929 and has the 3 1/4 inch serial number pad and the small bump to add wall thickness when the hole from valve chamber to rear camshaft bearing was added. There were no exterior changes after the bump was added. Purists needing a cylinder block before April 1929 will have to remove the bump possibly shorten the serial number pad, and possibly remove material where the Throttle Control Assembly (A-9725) mounts. By using a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) to create a SolidWorks model from the original cylinder block, all details that are not on the original Ford drawing (A-6015) such as draft, parting line locations, protrusions where water jacket support wires exited the cylinder block, and other details were captured. Steve Plucker has an extremely detailed Cylinder Block Guide that can be found at
http://www.plucks329s.org/pdf/engine...%20guide_1.pdf


Will this new technology address vibration?
Daren


Flathead answered your question by stating that a balance shaft is needed to fully eliminate vibration. A more detailed explanation can be found at http://www.modelaengine.com/13-crank...gn-a-6303.html
Second order vibration effects are another problem. Modern inline four cylinder engines incorporate two balance shafts with counterweights turning in opposite directions and at twice engine RPM. These balance shafts cancel a second order vibration caused because the two ascending pistons and two descending pistons do not always have identical opposing acceleration. Remember the connecting rod accelerations calculated earlier at TDC and BDC (+1936 g’s and –1081 g’s). Counterweights reduce crankshaft deflections and stress, but balance shafts do not. Balance shafts reduce loads on items external to the engine and increase passenger comfort. Since balance shafts do not reduce stresses in internal engine components and since there is no physical room for them in a Model A crankcase, they have not been considered in this engineering study.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Good on you Terry, best of luck with the Chinese, they are turning out some pretty good products these days.

Good to hear about your latest progress.

And thanks for your latest update.

Dodge
I thought of this thread a day or two ago when talking to one of our club members. He hasn't taken poart in many runs lately - he is a pattern maker and they are flat out at work making switching gear for some Chinese railroad. They freely admitted that they don't trust the stuff they have been getting from their own country.
I think that speaks volumes about the country. Todd, if you can keep your work out of China, all the better.
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Old 07-21-2019, 12:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve, Well said!
But the same applies here and I'm sure all over the world so don't feel special
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:18 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Bernie will give out free blocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve hackel View Post
My comment is in no way meant to be political, but to explain something from my point of view when so many of you are discussing reproduction and or replacement parts for our cars that are not produced here in the United States.

For the past 40+ years I have been rebuilding & restoring small electric motors for antique cars - mostly wiper motors & washer pumps for G.M. cars that were originally built for G.M. by Delco Manufacturing in the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s.

I am only going to give one small example, but I have dozens of them just as many of the people I work for do, and all of us are in the very same situation when it comes to cost / quality / availability / and U.S.A. vs over seas suppliers (and very cheap consumers too)

My example is this; the washer pumps use small plastic nozzles - squirters, and these are either straight or 90 degrees. The sets are comprised of a base plate, the nozzles, and 5 individual rubber pieces, and every G.M. washer pump uses this example. I can have the injection tooling produced here in the USA by more than one company, and just the 3 pieces of tooling comes to more than $40,000 by the least expensive companies quote. The minimum initial order needed for each item would have been 20,000 pieces (60k total)
and the average cost per piece was nearly $1.35 each. Amortize the cost of the tooling into the per piece and figuring my first order, I need to come up with $121,000. I located a manufacturer in India that produces, among other things, many of the plastic interior components for Lexus corp. and their quotes were the average of all that I received. MY tooling costs were nearly $2,000 each, my minimum run were at 2,000 pieces each, and my per piece cost was at $.42 each - plus shipping, import duties, VACS etc.

I can either have the parts made here in the USA or have them made over seas- my customers are NOT WILLING to pay the cost of the items if they are made here in the states, but are willing to pay less and look the other way
for these and other items that all of them need!

So lets assume that Terry Burtz is able to produce a short block engine here in the states for $8,000 to $10,000 and one in China for $3,000, which one are all of you patriots going to buy to continue our hobby?

Look at Todd and all of his personal efforts to produce something we all need, but few of us will ultimately buy; he's producing a great USA made block to our specifications, but he has to do EVERYTHING himself because either no one is capable of producing it or no one is willing to produce it. Where will he be with the cost of his block, what about the crank, rods & pistons, cam shaft
& lifters, valve train and other components?

Soooo, in conclusion, to all of you complaining about foreign made parts but are not willing to pay the cost of American made parts, STOP YOUR CONSTANT BITCHING - step up to the plate and produce something here in the USA , risk some of your hard earned retirement and solve all of our problems by offering something we need for far less than you have invested in it because people will not pay you what you ask, just to break even!
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.

Your experiences mirror mine exactly with trying to have something made in the USA.

When I started this project more than 10 years ago and wanted to keep it in the USA, my quote for foundry tooling was more than $150,000.

The current quote for tooling in China is in the $40,000 range.

My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:43 AM   #39
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Terry,
Did you see that in Good old Berkeley California you can't call them manhole covers
anymore, their now maintenance hold covers......true story

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Old 07-21-2019, 06:27 AM   #40
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Steve Hackle, thank you for your post.



My USA foundry experiences have led me to believe that the bigger problem is the lack of knowledgable engineers, lack of knowledgable workers, and lack of quality control in the foundries that I attempted to use. Foundries that I am familiar with do not use procedures to assemble cores, make molds, or pour iron.

In today's market and my experiences, USA foundries would rather cast manhole covers which are much easier to cast than cylinder blocks because there is little need to follow a procedure or have quality control when casting manhole covers.

The factory in China that we are working with specializes in making cylinder blocks, heads, connecting rods, and crankshafts. They do not make manhole covers.

Terry Burtz
I'm sure things are just the same over there as here. Decisions on what a company will do are made not by those who know the business but by accountants who know nothing but counting beans!
In my book, accountants have a lot to account for, if you get my drift!
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:45 AM   #41
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

First let me comment that I have the utmost respect for Terry and Tod for taking on this task.

So now the real discussion has started. The available market to sell these engines and/or components. The limited markets I see are three, Restored show cars, Touring cars and the Hot Rod/Racing market.

I cannot comment on the viable Restoration market, so someone else can help out here.

Touring is the largest market I see, some engineering improvements and improved materials can make a more reliable engine, both Terry and Tod have been working on these requirements. The motor has inherent design considerations that will never make it comparable to a modern engine though.

I have read about people thinking the HotRod and Racing market is viable. To some degree yes, but the Racing market is restricted by the rules of the organizations and the rule as it stands is the blocks must be original manufacture units. There are other restrictions but this is a tough one to overcome. The HotRod market is not restricted with the exception of investment. The Donovan "E" motor is a beast, aluminium (lots of it) 5 mains, larger than "B" motor, proper oiling system, ect. Depending on who you talk to, 50 units sold over how many years?

So the bottom line question;
How many units do we think can be moved along?
Honestly, if the demand was for 1000 units and the commitment was there I am sure Terry or Tod would have units available now.

BTW, Tod has one block done and running,(at least shown in a video) I know someone who has been waiting for his block going on 18-ish months.

Best, John
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Good Morning all...Many Model 'A's are running with fragile patched up engine blocks that don't have a great deal of life left in them. A question to the engine builders on the barn...How many of you would order blocks from Terry for your customers and at what price do you think you could successfully offer them to your customers? I know that I would order one...Ernie in Arizona
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

from just this last week, Tod posted this on the HAMB
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OHV and block 1.jpg (42.2 KB, 103 views)
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Old 07-21-2019, 02:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

That picture of Todd's new block & OHV head is so darn nice.....
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:25 PM   #45
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That picture of Todd's new block & OHV head is so darn nice.....
Agreed, but how many in the hobby will 'put their money where their mouth is"? A lot of 'I like it', but how many "I WILL buy it"s out there??
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:42 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Although somewhat long winded, that was my point exactly! No matter what most people say or where they are coming from, they tend to shop " dollars " rather than availability or quality , so their decision is usually related to liking the better product but liking the cheaper price even more. Retail products are not individual swap meet items for sale on a vendors table. If you can find the exact same item for less $ elseware, go right ahead and buy from that person - if you find a similar item for less, then buy that item instead - but don't complain that it's not the same quality of the more expensive one you passed on to buy the one you are holding in your hand.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Steve,

the silence is deafening

a short recent Chinese story;
a manufacturer of autoclaves recently won the contract to build a large unit for an aircraft mfg in china. in the notes for construction, "due to quality control issues, no critical components of the pressure vessel may be made from steel produced in china"
that is a statement right there.

John
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:59 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

So sad but true.... I am both at the mercy of a USA buyer and a foreign manufacturer, and neither of them are ever happy meeting in the middle
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:40 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Most A owners are 70+ and bitch about a qt of synthetic oil costs 6 bucks!
You think they will pay thousands for a block?
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:36 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

To do a proper rebuild on an original engine is a lot of money. If a person is willing to fork over that much, the additional money to have a new, high quality block seems pretty much a no brainer. There will always be some who stand by and second guess every bit of progress made, but give it a few years, we'll see. I happen to think the new block will sell well. I dont think a new block, even an aluminum one, will face the same discrimination as say fiberglass fenders do.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:38 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I just had my engine rebuilt at a cost of $5,500.00. Inserted, Pressure oiling, "B" counterbalanced crank. All these are features are in Terry's parts and much better than what I have.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:15 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,

can you elaborate on the build some?
1. repairs to make block sound, stitching, seats, sleeves etc.
2. "A" or "B" block
3. original cost of block, crank, rods, pistons etc.
4. what else, flywheel lightening? clutch change? cam, change or regrind?

Also, if "B" block, which main bearings were installed?

Thanks, John
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:06 AM   #53
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

we have 4 on order from Tod
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Old 07-23-2019, 03:03 AM   #54
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To do a proper rebuild on an original engine is a lot of money. If a person is willing to fork over that much, the additional money to have a new, high quality block seems pretty much a no brainer. There will always be some who stand by and second guess every bit of progress made, but give it a few years, we'll see. I happen to think the new block will sell well. I dont think a new block, even an aluminum one, will face the same discrimination as say fiberglass fenders do.
Eagle, I agree 100% on your comment.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:11 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I think Terry's engine is great, it might spark new interest in younger people, you might see more model A's on the road. Everything new needs to have the bugs worked out of it, how will these engines be tested, on an engine stand running constantly for days on end or in a vehicle?
thanks
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:09 AM   #56
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I have not seen a price for one of these?
That is where the rubber meets the road folks.

5-6 K might work
Much more and out of the park.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:25 PM   #57
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Chris,

can you elaborate on the build some?
1. repairs to make block sound, stitching, seats, sleeves etc. No block repairs.

2. "A" or "B" block. Diamond "A" Block.

3. original cost of block, crank, rods, pistons etc. The Block was in my car along with the rods. The "B" Crank and pistons are included in the rebuild costs.

4. what else, flywheel lightening? clutch change? cam, change or regrind? A Birely cam. V8 clutch.

Also, if "B" block, which main bearings were installed? Not a :B: Block.

Thanks, John
It is an inserted engine with pressure oil, Adjustable lifters, "B" crank, Lightened flywheel & V8 clutch, Vibration dampener, Mallory distributor, Webber carburetor, topped off with a Yapp Riley Two Port Head. I have been gathering parts for years for this build.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Hey Chris,

Will it be ready for the San Fernando Valley Model A Swap Meet? It would be nice to see it and hear it run.

At least you should make a YouTube video like Charlie Yapp did for the Cyclone head.

David Serrano
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:37 PM   #59
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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I have not seen a price for one of these?
That is where the rubber meets the road folks.

5-6 K might work
Much more and out of the park.
Dave,

I think that is one of the main reasons why a lot of people hesitate to buy a new block. It's not necessarily the cost but buyers want to know what they are getting for the price, e.g., will it require a lot of extra machining, can my engine builder work with the new block, etc.

Making small batches of blocks makes it difficult to set a consistent price because the fabricator is trying to recover his costs on each unit or make a small profit. Also, a small foundry may not be able guarantee a volume of engines for a set price.

What about a guarantee? Do I have any recourse if the block is defective?

It's fine if you are a trained machinest and have the equipment to play with a new block. Unfortunately, I'm don't have those skills or machinery. I would have to find a machine shop to do the work and the cost would be an unknown factor.

David Serrano
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:57 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Chris,


sounds like it will be a good running motor.

the head was not included in the cost mentioned? right?

curious on the "B" crank mod to fit in "A" block, also is it cross drilled to feed the rods?

thanks, John
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:24 PM   #61
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Hey Chris,

Will it be ready for the San Fernando Valley Model A Swap Meet? It would be nice to see it and hear it run.

At least you should make a YouTube video like Charlie Yapp did for the Cyclone head.

David Serrano
Probably not as it is too damn hot to work on it.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:28 PM   #62
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

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Chris,


sounds like it will be a good running motor.

the head was not included in the cost mentioned? right?

curious on the "B" crank mod to fit in "A" block, also is it cross drilled to feed the rods?

thanks, John
I bought the head well over a decade ago. They are now obsolete as Charlie has stopped producing them. I also had he flywheel, harmonic balancer on hand. I know that Joe Sivils built the engine for pressure oiling. I'll have to ask him about the crank.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:10 AM   #63
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks
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Old 07-24-2019, 12:26 PM   #64
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When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks
He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods.


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Old 07-24-2019, 12:53 PM   #65
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

"He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods."

Who's engine are you referring to? This thread has turned away from the original title.

The Terry Burtz engine will have a machined block with a machined crankshaft with machined rods to fit the block.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:09 PM   #66
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Again, this is not an update, but I will try to answer some questions.

Many questions ask about price. I cannot answer because I am not involved in negotiations with the factory. All I can say is that the new engine price will be competitive with a rebuilt engine that has inserts, crankshaft counterweights, connecting rods with inserts, and is balanced.




Hi Terry
Glad to see your project is moving again. Do you know Tod Buttermore? He is also just about to start production on his new model a engine. I'm not sure there is enough market to handle 2 new model a engine blocks. You might want to contact him and see if you can work together and build on fantastic new block.
Thanks, Eric


After the project stalled in California due to lack of quality control, inability to follow a procedure, and spiraling cost, I contacted Tod in Jan. 2015 in an attempt to work with him. Although we are competitors, we have no animosity. Pasted below is our Emails.

Tod Buttermore <revc351@yahoo.com>
Fri 1/16/2015 9:57 AM

Terry,

I took a quick look at the pattern pictures and I would have to say that none of the foundries around me could use that tooling as it is. Given the work load I have, I don't think I would have time in the foreseeable future to be of any help to you. I would think there has to be a foundry closer to your home that can do that casting. The only reason my foundry can do anything for me is because I am involved. Sorry for the let down.

Tod

Tod Buttermore <revc351@yahoo.com>
Tue 1/13/2015 4:09 AM
Terry,
Email received. I will look at the pictures and give you my assessment.
Tod

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 12:20 AM, Terry <terryandgus@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tod,
It was good talking with you about the New Model A Engine Project.
I have been working with Lodi Iron Works. When their only technical person in the office retired, this project shifted to the back burner.
Engineering is based on the original Ford drawings of the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rod.
SolidWorks and rapid-prototyping were used to create "masters". These masters were then used to create the foundry tooling.
The machined castings are documented with SolidWorks.
The tooling has produced several good castings if you don't count foundry screw-ups like failure to dry the water based mold wash, failure to fully engage core prints, interrupting the pour which caused a cold shut, etc. Only one good cylinder block without screw-ups has been cast, and that cannot be repeated because the personnel working on the floor that made the good casting are no longer employed at Lodi Iron Works.
The tooling pictures are located in my skydrive. You can access them from the link below:
http://1drv.ms/1dOxxFe
or
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...=folder%2c.JPG
At Lodi Iron Works, all core boxes were filled with PepSet with the exception of the water jacket core boxes.The water jacket core boxes were blown using IsoCure.
The last picture shows the pattern for the crankshaft and the next to last picture shows the aluminum match-plates for connecting rods and main caps that fit Lodi's automated molding line.
Over the next few days, I will send the core assembly procedure, pictures of assembled cores, pictures of castings, and pictures taken in the foundry.
I hope that we can work together to provide this new product to the Model A hobby.
Please reply so that I know that Email works and that you were able to view the skydrive pictures.
Terry Burtz



Hello Terry
I figured the engine project had stalled, and I'm glad to see you're back at it!
Will the block be cast iron?
Best regards, Carl


Yes, the cylinder block will be a cast iron. On drawing A-6015 Ford specified "A" iron. To keep costs at a minimum, instead of us specifying an antique alloy like "A" iron, the alloy chosen will be one that the factory uses for modern engine cylinder blocks.. The main bearing caps, connecting rods, and crankshaft will be a modern malleable iron, and again, it will be an alloy that the factory uses for modern engines. I have asked for properties of these alloys and will be happy to share them with anyone interested.



Good Morning Terry:
When you can quote either parts or and assembled short block please advise.
I have a “B” engine sitting on my Garage Floor but if this new engine were ready to go I think it would be the “real deal”.
Question
How would you handle Engine Block Numbers?
Thank you, Al


We are working with the factory to get quotes on parts, not a short block. The reason for not providing a short block is that most people want to choose the valve train that they want, choose pistons that they want, choose cam and timing gears that they want, along with other variables. Many people also have a collection of parts on the shelf that is waiting for the next rebuild. Regarding engine block numbers, for quality control purposes, after a cylinder block passes final inspection, a unique sequential serial number will be stamped on the machined surface where the A-6017 "Cylinder timing gear cover side" is mounted. On an assembled engine, this number is hidden, but easily accessible by removing a few bolts. The pad above the water inlet on the side of the cylinder block will be blank unless you request that we stamp it. We have the correct stamps with the different numbers (depending on serial number), and we can stamp it for you.



How about creating a go Fund Me page or a Kickstarter page to fund this?
Anne


Thank you for your suggestion. Money is not the problem. Many people have offered to make a deposit, The problem is to find a competent manufacturing facility that can produce a quality product for an affordable price. The project stalled several years ago due to spiraling costs and lack of quality control.



________________________________________
Hello Terry, great to hear you are back on deck with this project. It must be 5 or 6 years since we visited you from New Zealand and you showed us your projects. I will be thrilled to buy one of your new blocks, and head too if you make that. Will the crankshaft go ahead too, or is it too early to say?
SAJ in NZ


For this project, the crankshaft and connecting rods are included. Any head can be used because all interfaces for attaching parts are exactly as original.





When I rebuilt my engine and had it bored out .040, the machine shop would not begin the process of boring and honing until they had the new pistons to mic. Would the new engine need to dismantled, bored and honed?
thanks


Nothing needs to be dismantled. The "new engine" consists of a fully machined cylinder block, connecting rods and a crankshaft. The Ford drawing for machining the cylinder block calls for the cylinders to be reamed to 3.873 to 3.874 inch diameter, and then rolled to 3.875 to 3.876 inch diameter. Rolling does not produce a very good surface for the rings, so the plan is to have a diameter between 3.875 and 3.876 inch diameter with a honed 45 degree cross-hatched surface finish. See the following for surface finish. https://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceT...efinishing.htm
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:14 PM   #67
Chris Haynes
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
"He is not making a complete engine. Block, crank, and rods."

Who's engine are you referring to? This thread has turned away from the original title.

The Terry Burtz engine will have a machined block with a machined crankshaft with machined rods to fit the block.
The pictures I posted are of Terry's test castings.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:05 PM   #68
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,

Thanks for the detailed answers to the questions that have been posed. The clear and concise answers give a non-technical person like me a lot of confidence in your project and the product you will deliver.

David Serrano
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Old 08-19-2019, 01:25 PM   #69
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

I received the following progress update from Terry Burtz today:

-----------------------------------------------------

Hello to All,

19 August 2019


Updates

In case someone gets this Email without seeing the article on the new Model A engine, the article can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

If anyone has a question, concern, comment, or suggestion, please let me know at model.a.engine@hotmail.com and I’ll do my best to resolve the issue.


New Engine

This project started in 2007 and stalled in 2015 because of sky-rocketing cost and the lack of quality control at foundries in California.

Previous updates, pictures, and videos can be found at: http://www.modelaengine.com

Also see: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265782 for additional information.

I use the term "new engine" loosely because the only new parts are the cylinder block, crankshaft, and connecting rods. All interfaces for mating parts are identical to original and have been documented from original Ford drawings.

In the 2 July 2019 update, I was happy to state that the project was resurrected and I would be working with others to have the "new engine" manufactured in China at a factory that manufactures OEM parts for several customers.

The others that I will be working with include John, Bill, and Leonard. John has a company in Hong Kong and Virginia and has over 30 years of experience in having things manufactured in China and imported into the USA. One of John's products is a vintage cast iron 4-cylinder 3-main L-head cylinder block similar to a Model A cylinder block. John will be responsible for manufacturing and quality assurance. Bill will be responsible for accounting and disbursements. Leonard will be responsible for receiving orders and shipping the "new engines" to customers, and maintaining a list that ties customer names to the hidden serial number (part of quality assurance). I am the 4th member of the team and I will be responsible for everything related to engineering.

The 4 of us met at Leonard's home in Santa Ana, CA on the morning of Friday, August 16 to get to know each other and discuss our working relationships, and responsibilities. Leonard and his wife Kay were preparing for an annual meeting where the members of the Orange County Model A club, Southern California Oldsmobile Club and Antique Engine Club get together for a fun and educational meeting on Saturday, August 17.

After meeting with Leonard on Friday, John, Bill, and I retreated to the hotel where we were staying to have a 5-hour technical discussion regarding the new engine project. Many things were discussed including surface finishes, dimensional tolerances to 4 digits in certain areas, casting wall thickness, press and slip fits for dowel pins, hard exhaust valve seats, replaceable camshaft bearings, balancing, different alloys of iron (cast and ductile) that will be used for different parts, small parts that will be included like the dowel pins that locate the flywheel housing to the cylinder block, main bearing studs, and nuts, dowel pins in the crankshaft where the flywheel is attached, woodruff key for crankshaft timing gear, connecting rod wrist pin bushing, connecting rod bolts, and much more. Also discussed is the need for verification of design by third parties before the factory is turned on for production.

We talked about asking for a small quantity (6 sets of parts at most) for evaluation before production. One set of parts will be used for display and shown with pan rail up so people can see the 5 main bearings, crankshaft counterweights on both sides of each connecting rod, bosses for oil passages, rear main seal design, and many other features. The other sets of parts will be built by others for testing and evaluation.

John is a hands-on, grease under the fingernails type of guy who has a passion for detail and we can talk for hours about everything from Chinese culture and their way of doing things to the smallest technical detail.

On Saturday at Leonard's, I gave about an hour-long presentation to the attendees regarding the "new engine" which included features of the new design, history of problems with working with foundries in California, how the project stalled in 2015 because of the lack of quality control and spiraling cost increases, and how the project was resurrected when Leonard put me in contact with John. After I spoke, there was a question and answer discussion where the audience asked technical questions and I was happy to answer them.

The picture attached was taken while I was talking. I am wearing the straw hat by the "no speed limit" sign and John is wearing the white shirt and standing in front of the black toolbox.

John will be traveling to China in early September for technical discussions with the factory. If any questions arise, I am a phone call or email away.

Even with the added tariff on auto parts from China, our goal is to provide a quality product at an affordable price that is competitive with the cost of a rebuilt engine.

A deposit to cover 1/2 of the tooling cost has been made, and tooling is now being designed.


Cylinder Block

As mentioned in the 2 July 2019 update, 2 cylinder blocks were sent to China. One was original and the other was the one good casting made by Lodi Iron Works. In addition, SolidWorks files of the internal cores and machining were sent.

Although existing tooling has made cylinder blocks in 2 different foundries in California, all new tooling will be made in China. The reason for this is because the factory in China needs to assume full responsibility. The factory in China has been told that my SolidWorks files of the interior are for reference and can be modified as needed, however, the SolidWorks file for machining cannot be modified. If the factory in China were to use my tooling and/or interior SolidWorks files as is and had a problem, it could be argued that we gave them direction and that I was responsible for the problem.


Connecting Rod, Main Caps, and Crankshaft

These parts are much simpler than the cylinder block and they will be made of malleable iron. The 1932 Ford V-8 crankshaft was cast malleable iron, and most modern engines use malleable iron crankshafts.

SolidWorks models have been provided and the instructions to the factory in China is to follow the SolidWorks models.

Dimensional and balancing tolerances are being specified to be equal or exceed the tolerances on the Ford drawings.


Next Update

We are hopeful that we will have the first machined samples available by late fall and will send updates including pictures as the project matures.


Terry Burtz, Campbell, Calif.

.
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Last edited by wrpercival; 08-19-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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Old Today, 12:19 AM   #70
CWPASADENA
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Default Re: The Terry Burtz 5 main bearing engine blocks are back on track.

Terry,


Thank you for the very informative update.


It sounds like you have really done your homework.


The Model A hobby is looking forward to having a source for good quality new upgraded engine components.


Chris W.
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