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Old 08-03-2014, 03:54 AM   #1
Christoph
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Default Which compression ist that?

Good Morning.

My A sadly had some bubbeling water (once hot) as well as little
smoke out of bubbeling Water (not to be seen in the video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P5tPXwS84

As so, i took out the head to do a new gasket.

4 days of hard work (even lifting whole car with the engine lift).
Worst thing i ever had to do on this car.

Now i dont know about the head.
Is that a head with 5.5 compression (as i suspect)?
I did a lot of search but couldnt find pics (to compare).

Is it recommended to use a "modern" gasket with silicone here?

Thank you very much in advance.

Christoph
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:36 AM   #2
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

...and as i just want to learn....

what are those small holes for ????
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

The holes are for water and steam. It is a higher than original compression head. Some of the venders recommend a model B head gasket for a "high compression" head. I have used both A and B gaskets. JB
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:16 AM   #4
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Thank you so far !

Sadly - No markings on the top of the head

Will go into deeper investigation regarding small holes.
Tried some air-pressure-testing and two of them seem
to be blogged against the water-channels in the head.
Will drill something inside to find out about....

Thank you
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Can you post a picture of the top of the head.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Is it just me, or is your water pump mounted upside down?
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:35 AM   #7
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It is you :-)
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Ha ha! Figures.. That isn't unusual...
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Looks. upside down to me also. Smiley face.
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Well

water pump is upside-dow. Which is good, as head is upside down too....


No sorry for trying to be funny.
I agree - this pic appears strange.

Find another pic from "the days of demounting"

You might find the water-pump to be mounted correct .

Head was "frozen" and refused my request so....

I started with a carpet-knife and cutting away all of the gasket.
Then used a scraper (and hammered it in..)
Then a sceond....
In this pic you find 7 of them

Every mm of lifting the head was some task

Its true - You have to find new words to get the head off

Good thing : Head and engine did survive

Will investigate regarding a good pic of the top of the head
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

in reply to your answer on gaskets. Best Gasket Company makes a head gasket that has a strong black inner gasket covered in copper. These gaskets are earning a reputation for quality and durability. Your head probably requires a "B" gasket instead of one for an "A".

I am still seeing folks having trouble with the silicone gaskets although I have seen and used many with good results. Those require very frequent torquing for quite some time after installation. Additionally, the first run of the silicone gaskets had the red, water sealing strip misplaced through the center, driver's side, water port instead of around it. These are notorious for leaking. There are still some around being sold, so Caveat Emptor. If you buy one, get it from the source, which is Snyder's.

Always set a new gasket on the head to check for fit before installing it. You will be amazed how many do not fit exactly right.
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

today we found

2 passages to be blocked.

Im pretty sure, the left (which i called to be clogged)

we managed to drill it to release the very strong plug inside...

guess why the head-gasket collapsed.
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph View Post
Well

water pump is upside-dow. Which is good, as head is upside down too....


No sorry for trying to be funny.
I agree - this pic appears strange.

Find another pic from "the days of demounting"

You might find the water-pump to be mounted correct .

Head was "frozen" and refused my request so....

I started with a carpet-knife and cutting away all of the gasket.
Then used a scraper (and hammered it in..)
Then a sceond....
In this pic you find 7 of them

Every mm of lifting the head was some task

Its true - You have to find new words to get the head off

Good thing : Head and engine did survive

Will investigate regarding a good pic of the top of the head
Could you show us picture of gasket that was on head when removed ?
Could this be a higher comp/more modern head, as it looks maybe so ?
BTW, congratulations on getting the head off without breaking it ! As they are cast, I've broken older heads with this method you used.
And, CHECK now that there may be gouges on head and block surface....reguiring resurfacing for positive sealing.
Regarding your question as to using silly cone gasket. I'd use copper-coat, on both sides of new copper gasket. Also you can put a bit of copper coat around each cylinder and let it tack up before installing gasket. I usually put several head studs in loosely to guide gasket, as when it is tacky....you want the FIRST try to properly locate gasket to succeed.

BTW..Pay attn. to what Pat says above, regarding sillycone type head gaskets. My experience matches his in this respect !!

Last edited by hardtimes; 08-03-2014 at 01:19 PM. Reason: .................
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Pat
I hold different new gaskets an im not sure which to use.
Actually i dont like the looks of the ones with silicone.
There is not enough silicone and it is VERY close to the
passages (both - water and studs)

I suppose, the silicone will slip into the passages rather
than seal them.

Next point:
3 of the studs are found to be repaired with heli-coil
i guess the studs are not in correct direction and
this is why its so hard to demount the head.
is it possible to make passages somewhat wider to
make mounting easier?
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Thank you hardtimes
There was a silicone-gasket, but it was totally
destroyed while demounting the head.


luckily, the surfaces of block and head are still ok
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Old 08-03-2014, 01:41 PM   #16
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

found a better pic and i think the gasket was gone
arround the clogged water-passage
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph View Post
Pat
I hold different new gaskets an im not sure which to use.
Actually i dont like the looks of the ones with silicone.
There is not enough silicone and it is VERY close to the
passages (both - water and studs)

I suppose, the silicone will slip into the passages rather
than seal them.

Next point:
3 of the studs are found to be repaired with heli-coil
i guess the studs are not in correct direction and
this is why its so hard to demount the head.
is it possible to make passages somewhat wider to
make mounting easier?
For your information, there is a 'newer/different' repair that is better/stronger than heli-coil. Getting old and can not retrieve the name at this exact moment. Used it on two of my B short block recently. Idea is, if you have crooked studs, maybe you can remove these coils and start over with this other anchor process.
Some guys have recommended slightly bending the studs in place to make them more vertical , but this is not an option for me ,eh

BTW..have you tried to CC the head to determine compression ratio ?
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Old 08-04-2014, 04:25 AM   #18
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

hardtimes

Thank you
I really appreciate your ideas !

Snyders nowadays uses perma-coil but I guess
its just another name for Heli-coil???
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/4978

I guess the heli-coil are still ok .

I had to dremel one slightly as i found it to
be higher than the Block
(close to the stud - no issue)

your asking for CC and i think you are talking
about compression ?
(sorry - not my fathers language )

prior to demounting:
cold 5,5 4,6 4,9 4,8
hot 6,0 5,25 4,75 5,0
no 3 was hot somewhat lower than cold !

My all german calliper says:
Studs are 11mm and holes are 12mm
Did you ever try to “widen” the holes in the head ??
(To my opinion, the head has to go slick to the block.)
I guess I will try to go to 12,2 or something.
This evening I will compare the Silicone-headgasket to
the head and will figure out if it still will be able to
seal than…

Thank you again
Christoph
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:07 AM   #19
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph View Post
hardtimes

Thank you
I really appreciate your ideas !

Snyders nowadays uses perma-coil but I guess
its just another name for Heli-coil???
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/4978

I guess the heli-coil are still ok .

I had to dremel one slightly as i found it to
be higher than the Block
(close to the stud - no issue)

your asking for CC and i think you are talking
about compression ?
(sorry - not my fathers language )

prior to demounting:
cold 5,5 4,6 4,9 4,8
hot 6,0 5,25 4,75 5,0
no 3 was hot somewhat lower than cold !

My all german calliper says:
Studs are 11mm and holes are 12mm
Did you ever try to “widen” the holes in the head ??
(To my opinion, the head has to go slick to the block.)
I guess I will try to go to 12,2 or something.
This evening I will compare the Silicone-headgasket to
the head and will figure out if it still will be able to
seal than…

Thank you again
Christoph
I always drill the head holes 1/64" oversize, to make the head drop on easier & it helps get rid of any rust deposits. Make SURE your studs are clean, so's you don't scrape off any rust that will fall on the new gasket
Bill W.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

THANK you very much Bill

This makes me confident, that i did right.
I oversizied the head-holes a bit .
I didnt change things at this all nice and sticky new silicone-gasket

Re-assambly was "a dream"

Im very confident that all went ok.
Still couldnt re-install the exhaust
Wont have time next days but i dont care
Stress is gone

Thank you again
Best regards
Christoph
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Old 08-04-2014, 03:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Hey Christoph,
Hm, never have done as Bill describes, but maybe will on next application. Seems that that 'cleanout' of head stud holes makes sense, as I've been there and done the scraping of the head holes with studs. Glad that you feel relieved about progress. Let us know how that silly cone head gasket works out eventually. Luck to you !
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Ja Hardtimes
I will be back once car is running again.

2 ideas now.

1)
My police-head (as well as the engine) is just 2 years old
We didnt check the new Head prior to installation.
I now found it VERY HEAVY clogged in one of the small passages.

If you buy a new head, apply some air pressure to the 4 small
passages and make sure they are not clogged right from the factory.
Listen to the sound of the air and just to be sure put a wet
finger in the next bigger water-passage to find out about.

2)
Even if we built a new engine, blocks are old and in most cases the
bolts to the head are not even. If installation of the head aint EASY,
you will have a real-bad time once you have to demount things.
If bolts sticks in the holes during installation, how should pressure
of the bolts find its way to the head-gasket.
I oversized 0,5 mm (which might be much)
Bill oversized 1/64" which is 0,4 mm.

Just my opinion: If you need to force the head onto the block
for installation, there is something wrong

Have fun.
Best regards
Christoph
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

[QUOTE=hardtimes;921969]Hey Christoph,
Hm, never have done as Bill describes, but maybe will on next application. Seems that that 'cleanout' of head stud holes makes sense, as I've been there and done the scraping of the head holes with studs. Glad that you feel relieved about progress. Let us know how that silly cone head gasket works out eventually. Luck to you ![/QUOTE
I recomember one guy on here, PISSING about the NEW red sillycone gasket leaking +&&%^$%$%------Whin he pulled it off, yea, you guessed it, a BIG flake of RUST, laying across a RED seal line, around a water hole!! When you're doing a head gasket, CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GODLINESS & THE HEAD'S GOTTA' BE FLATTER THAN A flitter! When I worked Jaguars, I made a 1/2 round scraper to clean the studs. Them Mothers must have had 47 studs, almost a foot long! What a chore, when they're stuck with calcium, or electrolysis or whatever that WHITE crap was that seized the ALUJIMUM HEAD to the studs & NO room even for collett type stud removers. +*%&%$&$%^ (And you wonder WHY I'm a KRAZY man???)
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Old 08-05-2014, 05:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
For your information, there is a 'newer/different' repair that is better/stronger than heli-coil. Getting old and can not retrieve the name at this exact moment. ?

Time-sert is probably the product.

Helicoils can be trouble as they expand on the way out. The timeserts aren't a spring, and I've never had one come out anyway - even on a VW sparkplug, which are notoriuos for winding out helicoils and destroying the head.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:18 AM   #25
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Update:

I used that Silicone-gasket (which is sticky all over)
without any changes (to the gasket) and put it to the engine

Than i put head back on an and reassembly was as expected.
Time-consuming but ok.

Tightened head with 55 ft-lbs.
Engine fired up within a sec an runs smooth again.
No bubbles anymore, even once engine is hot .
No oil in water; No water in oil and nothing leaking to the outside....

Will re-torque bolts twice but i guess, prob is solved.

If i will have to demount the head (someday) again, im
pretty confident, that it will not be a pain again.


I still believe my posting no 23 is correct.
Holes in my head where 12mm without changes.
I drilled to 12,5mm (as such a drill was available)

Even engine is running great now , i would not
oversize as much again. If there ever is a "next time",
i will try 12,3mm ....

Happy motoring
best regards
Christoph


@ Bill : Thank you for your help and confidence.
You are a real friend
If you are KRAZY, i want to be Krazy too.

@hardtimes : A little oversize-drilling of the holes will reduce "hardtimes" somewhat

@ Allanw: Thank you for your info, but 55ft-lbs aint much and i
guess Heli-coil will be sufficient here ... (you wont take out the studs
as often as you might take out a spark-plug)
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:57 AM   #26
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Default Re: Which compression ist that?

Christoph, your caliper is metric, Ford worked in inches. 11mm = .437 (+ or-) .437= 7/16. Thread size- 7/16 X 20 Threads per inch. These are American fine threads, on the top of the stud. The part that screws into the block is 7/16 X 14, or the coarse thread. Run your fingers down the length of the stud and you will feel a slight shoulder about halfway down.
This was to locate the head once it was in place. I would suggest drilling the head with no bigger than an 11.5 mm or about .457/.460 Bohrer. If I remember correctly, The holes are 1/64th oversize already, or about .015. 29/64ths
I have a Swiss Etalon vernier caliper that reads metric on top and inches on the bottom.
Terry


Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph View Post
hardtimes

Thank you
I really appreciate your ideas !

Snyders nowadays uses perma-coil but I guess
its just another name for Heli-coil???
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/4978

I guess the heli-coil are still ok .

I had to dremel one slightly as i found it to
be higher than the Block
(close to the stud - no issue)

your asking for CC and i think you are talking
about compression ?
(sorry - not my fathers language )

prior to demounting:
cold 5,5 4,6 4,9 4,8
hot 6,0 5,25 4,75 5,0
no 3 was hot somewhat lower than cold !

My all german calliper says:
Studs are 11mm and holes are 12mm
Did you ever try to “widen” the holes in the head ??
(To my opinion, the head has to go slick to the block.)
I guess I will try to go to 12,2 or something.
This evening I will compare the Silicone-headgasket to
the head and will figure out if it still will be able to
seal than…

Thank you again
Christoph
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